Date:
15 Sep 2001
Time:
11:42:32

Comments

In my parish bible study group, we have already taken a look at this lesson.... and the term "dishonest wealth" in v. 11 is a stumbling block for the group. What exactly does Jesus mean by "dishonest wealth"? Blessings, Eric in KS


Date:
15 Sep 2001
Time:
14:18:02

Comments

A few points from the reading about security: The vivid and repeated reports on the terror atttacks in the USA have contributed to a general sense of insecurity even here in Australia. Using wealth as a relevent example to his audience (see the following two verses), Luke's Jesus teaches us to not have our security in anything other than God. Wealth is not the only master competing against God for our affections and allegiance. In the light of increase sectarian attacks on Muslims and the unholly clamor for bloody retribution, I hear Jesus warning us not to make fear, hate and mistrust our master. Nigel in Melbourne


Date:
16 Sep 2001
Time:
22:48:37

Comments

This passage often conjures up negative images of dishonest users of the system, but perhaps images that are more helpful might include such characters as Radar O'Reilly and Max Klinger from the TV series MASH, masters of the finagle, who developed whole networks to get what their unit needed even if it wasn't strictly GI; or perhaps Jimmy Stewart's character in "It's a Wonderful Life," whose shrewdness was in the area of people skills, rather than in making a profit. In both cases, they didn't confuse "doing what is right" with "doing it by the book/righteousness" (though these are, of course, not mutually exclusive categories!) OLAS


Date:
17 Sep 2001
Time:
14:26:02

Comments

I was just re-reading this passage, and it suddenly hit me! This parable (told to his disciples, and not to the masses, or even to the Pharisees) comes after the Pharisees have been complaining about Jesus's "stewardship" of their faith and tradition with the God of Israel. The unjust manager is Jesus! By his own means, he is adjusting the debt we owe to God, and by doing so, gaining the loyalty of the people as he saves them from the consequences of their debt. It is faithfulness in little things that touch people's lives and tells them of God's grace and love; and it is being dishonest in little things (such as making the system work for the advantage of those in power) that is the sin of the supposedly righteous leaders. Jesus was doing what it took to establish a saving relationship with the people, giving his own life, so that when his earthly body was gone, the people would welcome him into their hearts and lives. Likewise, we are called to give our lives to establish relationships with all of God's people so that they may know Christ. -- OLAS


Date:
17 Sep 2001
Time:
16:14:28

Comments

I think God has led me to this Scripture to use this week.... I was working today in the parsonage...God is telling me to be accountable with my time as a pastor, My people know I stay busy with them, I practically work FT in PTLP position. But, even tho, they are good people I see results, or fruit. I still need to be a better steward and keep a log-visitation, phone calls, mileage... so, if ever anyone says, "our preacher doesn't visit-which I do- I can show them the log. I know my people would not do this, but a good habit to begin... God was dealing with this before the Lectionary look see I gave... I was hmmm accountability.... Actually, I think this sermon will be appropriately timed. Last week we shared, vented, praised and I used Prayer of Habakkuk Chp. 3. I think I will tie in Jer. weeping because we are still in grief and concern of war...but enough time went by to really preach a hard hitting sermon on accountibility...not so much on finances... but accountiblity to our behavior as 1. persons 2. Business/Organizations 3. and National. Lead into Accountibility of each to GOD! What Grade would the world give you/us? And what Grade would God give/you us? Are they the same? Illustrates the two master thing. Title of Sermon play on words With WHAT IS YOUR A.Q.? (like I.Q.) Accountibility quotient. LadyPreacher in OHIO


Date:
17 Sep 2001
Time:
19:23:56

Comments

Dear brothers and sisters, servants in the field: I wish to propose to you a rather unorthodox interpretation of the parable of the unjust steward. Having read numerous commentaries that argue back and forth about assigning Jesus and God to the characters of the unjust steward/manger and the rich man … together with arguments about how God cannot be “the rich man” and how Jesus would never revel in shrewdness … it occurred to me … (in light of last week’s events) what if … … what if, the “unjust steward” was the fallen angel given reign over this world? What if he were Satan himself? And what if … … Satan himself was put on notice: that he had gone too far … that his reign was in jeopardy? An “what if” this fallen angel began to scramble … to act shrewdly … to cover his “red butt,” if you will … and actually began cutting the people of this world some slack? Not because Satan actually gives two rips as to our survival or demise … but only in the interest of his/her self preservation … Would not the God of mercy and grace commend the fallen one for his shrewdness? And would not God, on the lips of Christ, remind US that we cannot serve two masters … that there is only One? …. One who operates through grace and not barter? One whose accounts will neither be corrupted or compromised? Children of the light (God’s faithful) … THEY trust cautiously … invest wisely … and will be entrusted with true riches … (Just struggling to make some applicable sense of a difficult gospel …) Anticipating your response, I remain: PJinNJ.


Date:
17 Sep 2001
Time:
22:14:02

Comments

You may find this article of Ched Myers either helpful or not, but certainly stimulating. While the article discusses the Matthean version of the parable, I actually think his argument works better on Luke's version. . http://www.theotherside.org/archive/may-jun99/myers.html . Blessings and Peace, and thanks to all who helped so much with the discussion last week. That was a very difficult message to prepare, made easier with all your input and honesty. LW in Oz


Date:
18 Sep 2001
Time:
08:01:52

Comments

I have already lost enthusiasm for the idea proposed in my previous post (above). It is riddled with problems---not the least of which is that there is no indication that Satan is cutting us any slack whatsoever. I will continue to follow this dialogue … there has got to be some way to wring some gospel out of this weeks gospel … PJinNJ


Date:
18 Sep 2001
Time:
08:23:50

Comments

Let me propose another idea (then I promise I will sit on my hands for a while): What if the “little” we’ve been entrusted with is the very gospel itself? Will we prove faithful? Love your enemies?! Even when their trying to kill you?! Apparently … “Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they’re doing.” PJinNJ


Date:
18 Sep 2001
Time:
08:49:35

Comments

My struggle is what is the message to give to my congregations. I cannot go on with "preaching as usual." How does this passage help me hear the word for this time? As I look at all the lectionary passages together - there seems to be a theme of what it means to be a disciple of Christ - we feel- we pray - we act - we respond - all based on the Gospel of love. When I reflect on the shrewd steward, I keep thinking that to conquer the enemy one has to know the enemy- better than the enemy even knows themself. To be wise in the ways of the world is to learn how the system works - and then to be able to bring the power of God into it and transform it. Some initial thoughts. ER in NY


Date:
18 Sep 2001
Time:
11:56:19

Comments

As I read this lesson I have to wonder if we are the ones who have been called to give accounting by all of the things that have happened. Are we the ones who are trying to make all of the deals necessary to bring about the results we desire? Who are our deals being made with and as we reevaluate our lives are we being careful to follow God’s ways. JB IN MB


Date:
18 Sep 2001
Time:
13:26:18

Comments

I'm still struggling with the "dishonest wealth" thing ... I have found that the same term appears in the Deuterocanonical (Apocryphal) Book of Sirach (Ecclesiasticus) 5:8 "Do not depend on dishonest wealth, for it will not benefit you on the day of calamity." ---- I still don't know what it means, exactly, but I'm working on it. Anyone have any suggestions? ---- Thanks and blessings, Eric in KS


Date:
18 Sep 2001
Time:
15:27:16

Comments

I have a person in my congregation who is trying to fight against a much needed sanctuary, evne though it has already been voted on, and a third of the money is already in place. All of these scriptures in this section seem to say, "Go for it! Spend your money for God, don't hoard it! Take risks." I feel that I am preaching at him though. taking a moment..


Date:
18 Sep 2001
Time:
16:26:02

Comments

THE RSV speaks of "dishonest wealth" as "unrighteous mammon" and I think what it means is simplyh that wealth is a false god of security and power - and we always want as much of this "security" as we possibly can get. Also, the owner of the estate and the steward were out to get as much as they could and they were taking all their debtors for a ride, because the steward was the 'middle man' he was always the point person for gossip and rumor. The debtors sought to get rid of him -- ah, but he was so clever he walked a way with a little of that dishonest stuff himself!!! tom in ga


Date:
18 Sep 2001
Time:
16:46:46

Comments

This really has nothing to do with this text. However, I thought I would share with you this press release from Episcopal News Service with the words of another new hymn written to express grief and prayer after the September 11 terrorist attacks. With DPS not letting us create separate paragraphs this is somewhat difficult to do, but here goes .... New hymn offers faith in the wake of disaster by Jan Nunley ---- (ENS) A prolific Episcopalian hymnwriter has written a new hymn to commemorate the terrorist attack on the World Trade Center towers and the Pentagon September 11. The hymn debuted at the noon eucharist at the Episcopal Church Center on September 18. <P> The hymn, entitled "When sudden terror tears apart," was written in the days after the disasters by the Rev. Carl P. Daw, Jr., currently executive director of the Hymn Society in the United States and Canada. The text is in Common Meter (C.M.). Suggested tunes are Bangor (The Hymnal, p.164) and Detroit (The Hymnal, p. 674). <P> Contact Church Publishing Incorporated for information about using the hymn. Reprints must include copyright information and a notation identifying the source of the music. <P> WHEN SUDDEN TERROR TEARS APART <P> C.M. (suggested tunes: BANGOR, DETROIT) <VERSE 1> When sudden terror tears apart <BR> the world we thought was ours, <BR> we find how fragile strength can be, <BR> how limited our powers. <VERSE 2> As tower and fortress fall, we watch <BR> with disbelieving stare <BR> and numbly hear the anguished cries <BR> that pierce the ash-filled air. <VERSE 3> Yet most of all we are aware <BR> of emptiness and void: <BR> of lives cut short, of structures razed, <BR> of confidence destroyed. <VERSE 4> From this abyss of doubt and fear <BR> we grope for words to pray, <BR> and hear our stammering tongues embrace <BR> a timeless Kyrie. <VERSE 5> Have mercy, Lord, give strength and peace, <BR> and make our courage great; <BR> restrain our urge to seek revenge, <BR> to turn our hurt to hate. <VERSE 6> Help us to know your steadfast love, <BR> your presence near as breath; <BR> rekindle in our hearts the hope <BR> of life that conquers death. <P> Words: Carl P. Daw, Jr. (b. 1944) ©2001 Hope Publishing Co., Carol Stream IL 60188 All rights reserved. Used by permission.


Date:
18 Sep 2001
Time:
16:47:33

Comments

oopsss ... the new hymn posting was from me ... Eric in KS


Date:
18 Sep 2001
Time:
19:10:49

Comments

In the Gospel of Luke is a parable - it's a story about the kingdom of God. What can we learn about life in God's kigdom from the story of the dishonest manager? When we see the cross, read the Bible, enter into prayer we are faced with a decision. Jesus expects his followers to be sophisticated about the complexities of the world, savvy about finances, and aware of human motivations! hillary in ca


Date:
18 Sep 2001
Time:
21:21:32

Comments

Hey folks! There is a great epistle reading this week that is a great follow-up to Sunday. It deals with prayer and the universality of the gospel. Come join us! Craig in Maine


Date:
18 Sep 2001
Time:
23:10:34

Comments

IS anyone having trouble with their posting actuallly getting posted? I left something about 3 hours ago and I can't find it. Also, is there something wrong at my end that I can't make paragraphs? STAN in TN


Date:
18 Sep 2001
Time:
23:12:01

Comments

Never mind, I just found it. I had accidentally posted it in the sermon box. I need to go back to Posting 101 STAN in TN


Date:
19 Sep 2001
Time:
10:46:06

Comments

I think that we are on to something when we see that the steward has previously equated money with security, but shrewdly recognizes that true security is found in relationship. He uses all the resources that he can access to build relationship, rather than to "secure" his future by hoarding. The events of the past week have altered our perception of our safety. Like the steward, we are suddenly aware that our future is not secure. Will we have his wisdom? Will we turn in on ourselves, focusing on self preservation only, or will we have the wisdom to see that this is a time to pour ourselves out to glorify God, rather than circle the wagons and hunker down. Do we seek our security in the financial and military might of our nation, or do we search for it in loving others, as our God has taught us to do? I don't know what I will preach. But I do see an eternal principle here. If we follow a God who tells us that our security is in his love, we have to cling to that love, or choose another master. SS in PA


Date:
19 Sep 2001
Time:
10:57:30

Comments

Please don't be afraid to stray from the lectionary. God's people need to hear a Word from God. Stray if you must to meet that need. May His presence be made known. Preach the Word.


Date:
19 Sep 2001
Time:
11:08:20

Comments

Incidental to Lady Preacher in OHIO. . . PLUS note about "accountability" and "good stewardship" to others. Pray about this. I personally feel our parishioners could benefit much more if we spend all possible time ministering to the people, rather than spending some of that time documenting what we are doing. In one secular job I spent over an hour a day documenting what I did, and could do less a day as a result. Should not the proof of our ministry be in the fruits, not the documents? If someone questions our use of time, most often it is normally because they are being convicted by something the Holy Spirit led you to say or do. They are undoubtedly looking for excuses to complain about you and no documents will answer their needs as effectively as ministry to them. Also, if I am paid to do ministry for God 60 or more hours a week, why spend much of that time doing trustees, accounting or custodian work? Is this being an effective minister? As in Romans 12, should we not allow lay persons to offer and use their gifts? If I do 3 hours of fixing my church's parsonage/manse/etc. plumbing, someone is not going to get that time for my real ordained ministry. (Or my family will not get their time with me for theirs.) Accountability and good stewardship, like this parable, can get tough. revup


Date:
19 Sep 2001
Time:
12:41:38

Comments

SS in PA, Thank you so much for your comments ... PJinNJ


Date:
19 Sep 2001
Time:
13:47:37

Comments

Lots of good ideas, and I haven't even read them all yet. Thanks, LadyPreacher in OHIO, for your comments. It pulls all three readings together for me. ...... The accountability approach is where the response to all of this comes in. Sermon title: The More Things CHange, The More They Stay The Same. Jeremiah and Timothy refer to the weeping and the tragedy, I will focus on God's unchanging grace. Accountability asks us, what do we do now? What have we been doing that works, what should we change? What are our choices? What does GOD ask of us? We cannot act to please botht the world AND God, we must choose.... early thoughts.........still searching. ......Rev Janet in CNY


Date:
19 Sep 2001
Time:
15:17:25

Comments

Could the meaning of "dishonest wealth" be found in the fact wealth promises more than it can deliver? Wealth promises happiness, security, love, you name it ... but in fact can deliver none of those. It cannot live up to its promises and therefor is "dishonest." The "true riches" -- relationship with God and with our brothers and sisters in God's family -- are "true" because they can and do deliver these promises. -- Eric, beginning to make sense of this term, in KS


Date:
19 Sep 2001
Time:
16:05:56

Comments

This has nothing to do with the Gospel Lesson, I guess, but I just saw the news report that the retaliatory effort against the terrorists responsible for the WTC/Pentago attacks is being called "Operation Infinite Justice" ... My Lord! Aren't we full of ourselves?!?! I don't know of anyone capable of "infinite justice" other than God. The hubris revealed in that choice of operational designation sticks in my craw! Yes, we need to combat terrorism and evil ... but shouldn't we do so with a little bit of humility...? Shouldn't we do so with the understanding that we are not infallible? Shouldn't we do so with the understanding that we are not capable of "infinite justice"? Talk about "dishonest"! ---- Blessings, Eric in KS


Date:
19 Sep 2001
Time:
16:15:32

Comments

The steward finally gets down to business at a time of crisis--losing his job. We are also a people in crisis after last week's attacks. This is forcing everyone to forget about trivial masters and to turn to the true Master in accountability. We often forget about all the blessings of God's grace and our responsibilites as stewards when everything is going well. This is an opportunity for us to affirm what is most important in life and to re-commit ourselves to being stewards of God's gifts. GB


Date:
19 Sep 2001
Time:
16:42:47

Comments

It would be shrewd for wealthy countries to forgive the debt developing countries owe. The benefits to the environment and of having more stable societies would be in the self-interests of "developed" countries. It is also shrewd to make friends of these countries, rather than have them despise giving way more in the long run to rich countries than they ever borrowed in the first place.


Date:
19 Sep 2001
Time:
16:46:23

Comments

There are times when it is not always a virtue to tell the truth, and not always a vice to tell a lie. Lewis Smedes tells a story of a teacher picking up one of his drawings in school and telling the whole class that this is an example of how not to make a picture. During the Gulf War, Kwaities sometimes hid Iraqian people. The teacher was not be kind or shrewd, while the Kwaities were being kind and shrewd. Preaching in Pincher.


Date:
19 Sep 2001
Time:
18:07:27

Comments

Some early thoughts. The steward was in a time of crisis. (Like our nation and those with deep desires for retaliation) Anyone who has decided not to accept Jesus as their savior is also in a time of crisis. If they are in crisis, You and I are in crisis. Should we not us all of mammon at our disposal to help your brothers and sisters in crisis? I have two youth who are into contemporary Christian music, in Christian bands, wear tee shirts that use contempoary ad slogans to "sell" Jesus, eg Got Milk = Got God. These are not the favorite forms of advertising Jesus in our conservative communities. Anyway. Wouldn't God recognize our shrewdness as we use whatever gets the attention of the lost. The UMC has started an advertizing blitz using TV commercials a form of mammon. Who would have though that a pagan tree, symbols of fertility, dates, etc. would be incorporated into the shrewd servants "bag of tricks" to help the lost understand just how much God loves us. God loved the world so much that he gave us his son so that whoever believes in him will not perish but have everlasting life. Early and un-nurtured thinking. LB in NC


Date:
19 Sep 2001
Time:
20:25:58

Comments

I plan to talk about all the different interpretations of the parable but then spend 2/3s of my message on the 16:13 verse. I'm going to try to weave in two main thoughts: Are we part of the problem or part of the answer (Our answers or God's answers) and who are our masters? What gives us our values and direction? "Mamon" (possessions, retaliation,etc.) or God (spirit, principles, love,etc.) For the children's message, I'm going to ask them who they think the greatest person who everlived was? Hoping that Jesus will be someone's answer (if not I'll suggest it). My point will be that those things we usually associate with greatness (Money, degrees, clothes, house, rank, etc.) Jesus had none of these!. Jesus' greatness was from things we can't even see!!! love, truth, faith, spirit. and not only that he had great power partly atleast because he was willing to be powerless. etc. etc. If all the kids are toddlers, I'll have to do something else. I feel we have to keep reminding our people that IN THE LONG RUN our worldly masters won't help much. Good luck. Lindy //home.twcny.rr.com/lyndale


Date:
20 Sep 2001
Time:
01:08:22

Comments

For me, the whole meaning of the parable hinges on Jesus' ironic commendation in verse 9,"And I tell you, make friends for yourselves by means of dishonest wealth so that when it is gone, they may welcome you into the eternal homes." Sorta like, "Go ahead, lie down with dogs, but you'll wake up with fleas." If you play by dishonest, unscrupulous methods in this life, how can you expect different companions in the eternal realm. You may get recognition as being wiley, but Wiley Coyote always gets the anvil he planned for another. The former boss gives himself away by admiring the steward's ploy. "Ow! You got me. Really pulled a fast one on me there, didn't you? Ha! Good one. Oh well, I'll get you next time, you miserable little @#$%^&*..." This all hits home too well with current events, I'm afraid. Dick Cheney has said we will have to "play dirty" to win this "war" we're about to wage, using ploys we wouldn't formerly permit and making alliances with countries we recently denounced. Are we going to give back as dirty as we got? Don't the terrorists win, then? A recent poll showed a majority of Americans favored retaliation "even if some civilians were killed" in the process. Why don't we just slap the terrorists on the back and congratulate them for beating us to the punch, if we are willing to do the same? If we behave better than them, acting in accordance with civility, they have the advantage though, right? Not forever. And forever matters. We are angry, and rightly so, but that does not excuse doing "whatever it takes" to avenge ourselves. In Ephesians it says something like,"Be angry, but sin not, nor give place to the devil." Let's stay out of the devil's business now, and forever. Seems like a timely message to me. tom in TN(USA)


Date:
20 Sep 2001
Time:
09:46:23

Comments

Last week, although we read the Luke passage, we only touched it peripherally as we did a very moving 'rewrite' of the five most important things and covered the ones we had written the week before. I hadn't read ahead and, in typical, okay-took-care-of-that fashion, had imagined moving on this week into the normal topics of our worship. These readings, all of them, remind me to stay where we are. There is no going beyond this in a simple straight-line method. We need to be stuck here for awhile. So, while my people may not want to stay here, while they grumble, some of them, at my cautions around blaming whole communities, and at my suggestions of our passive complicity, this is where we are, and the scenery, for some time, will be ugly. We need to see it in all its ugliness. These passages have helped me to recognize that; perhaps they will help my congregation,too. continued prayers for all of you who minister in these difficult times. emmy/canada


Date:
20 Sep 2001
Time:
14:45:21

Comments

>As I read this lesson I have to wonder if we are the >ones who have been called to give accounting by all >of the things that have happened. Are we the ones who >are trying to make all of the deals necessary to >bring about the results we desire? Who are our deals >being made with and as we reevaluate our lives are we >being careful to follow God?s ways. JB IN MB JB, and others... I like the way you think.... I too think this passage will work looking at our accountability... it seems there are a few of my folks that do NOT think killing others will solve what we desire, or more importantly, what God desires... I had an older member of my church tell me after my sermon in which I preached that killing is not the answer, a tit for tat will not result in anything positive... to that, she responded later at the coffee hour... "I thought you should know why I did NOT shake your hand... after telling me I probably didn't have any family in the military that... sometimes, sometimes, Killing is the only answer!" "If killing is the only answer, then I want a different question," I thought to myself. Also, Gandhi perhaps said it best, when he said, "An Eye for an eye will only leave the whole world blind..." He also said, "You must be the change you long to see..." HE was VERY WISE! Undercover, pulpitt in ND


Date:
20 Sep 2001
Time:
14:50:15

Comments

Someone thought the dishonest manager was Jesus - I hope you will reconsider that angle. The dishonest manager was the church hierarchy of Jesus' time, including the Pharisees who were within earshot of Jesus' discussion with his disciples. The parable is really difficult to understand unless you can relate it to the times this story was told in. The culture of Jesus' day greatly admired "shrewdness" whereas we would probably not think much of it. Different translations of the passage use "wordly" instead of "dishonest." The NIV translates it as "worldly" which probably makes more sense in this case. We need to consider our futures, life in heaven, where our bank accounts and stored treasures will mean absolutely nothing and will not guarantee our home in heaven. What does matter is taking care of the needs of others in a hurting world - something which the church in Jesus' day neglected to do. "What is highly valued among men is detestable in God's sight." However the shrewd manager went about settling accounts is not the main point, but that he considered his future, something none of us should take for granted. Some verses to apply might be Luke 20:45-47, Luke 12:13-21, Luke 19:1-9, Matthew 23, Matthew 25:40-46. Since this parable was told to the disciples, was Judas present? Judas was the money manager of the group and surely his story could be applied to this parable as well. Blessings to all of you who seek to give some hope to a very hurting world. -Carol in Michigan


Date:
20 Sep 2001
Time:
15:08:21

Comments

RJH in Canada, and Eric in Kansas... and others of similar thought... Those two stories of last week were the bedrock of my sermon... that and the image from Shindler's list... when the German officer was saying... "Power is so great, why, I can take a life at any moment... man, that's power! In response, Shindler sais something like... "I'm afraid I disagree with you sir, true power is being able to kill someone, and THEN chosing NOT too. The nations of the world will see our power in how we will respond... they will see our power, or they will see our POWER! I liked the image of seeing God sifting through the buckets of remains to find the "lost"... this week, we're looking at how we can be accountable for the gift of life entrusted to us, and the POWER we have to show LOVE TO ALL THE WORLD! Blessings, I love this site... :?) pulpitt in ND


Date:
20 Sep 2001
Time:
15:58:21

Comments

Jesus as the dishonest steward makes a lot of sense to me. As I read the parable earlier this week, I thought to myself, Gosh, God is sneaky. God will sneak into our lives and do whatever it takes to get us to come into the kingdom. Even when the means aren't exactly by the book, even when by rights we owe 100%, if God can wrench 50 or 80 out of us, that's not too bad for now. And there's nothing to day that the dishonest manager didn't go back for more later... Heather in Sharon


Date:
20 Sep 2001
Time:
17:18:15

Comments

In the 1970's, money lending institutions sent young employees to third world countries to lend them money. Government reps gladly borrowed the money, using much of it for purposes other than the common good. The quick turn-over of unstable governments in developing countries has meant the people have been strapped with a debt they did not benefit from. Now we have "the international debt-crisis" in which more money travels from poor countries to rich countries. We send them charity dollars, while they send more back in debt repayments. It is insane. We, in the wealthy countries, should fire our financial institutions for being expiedient, and not good managers of the world's resources. But if the banks and governments are shrewd, they will forgive the third world of much of their debt so as to make friends of these countries rather than have them bitter and ruining their environment in efforts to try to pay off their debt. It might be just to make them pay, but it would be alot shrewder to forgive. And would we commend our banks and goverments for reducing the debt of poor countries? Preaching in Pincher.


Date:
20 Sep 2001
Time:
18:17:17

Comments

So they're going to change the name of "Operation Infinite Justice" because it offends Muslims! It offended some Christians, too. Even though I agreed with her, one of my most ardent conservative flag-waving parishioners was upset about the name. Glad they wised up! Blessings, Eric in KS


Date:
20 Sep 2001
Time:
22:47:27

Comments

"In Praise of Shrewdness", or "How to buy friends and influence people". I'm interested that forgiveness is needed to re-establish community, and this manager re-establishes himself in community by forgiving. He forgives what is not his (unless he is forgiving his "interest" portion of the debt) but perhaps we forgive others for things they really owe to God. We don't do it out of superiority, but because we too have been rascals and seek to re-establish community and relationships over being right. Pincher


Date:
21 Sep 2001
Time:
12:17:34

Comments

SS in PA- Yep, I agree that the lesson here is wealth as means. God's power is not wealth. God is always on to raising up the lowly- e.g., Jesus. Therefore, will the trade towers become an absolute for Americans-- the goal is this image restored, criminals caught; or can we face the very difficult question of whether the trade towers were ever thought to be currency to a better life for the globe? HOpefully, this question can be separated with the need to stop the perpetrators. --AEA


Date:
21 Sep 2001
Time:
12:59:09

Comments

Does anyone know what percentage of the world's resources the USA uses? Thanks mcp


Date:
21 Sep 2001
Time:
17:03:18

Comments

Jesus is downright sarcastic in verse 9 (the suggestion that one could parlay worldly transactions into an eternal habitation is ludicrous and the tone of the verse shows that Jesus thinks so too.) It's as if he wants to disabuse us of any idea that this parable is about the proper use of wealth (Luke is already loaded with that anyway). yet in verse 8 he shows some admiration for the manager's shrewdness. What was so shrewd about the manager? He created an obligation out of someone else's wealth -- an idea that was as distateful to the pharisees as it is to us. This whole section begins at 15:1-2 and ends at 16:14-15. The pharisees (and us) are more comfortable with a system in which the create an obligation out of our own wealth or our own resources (like the older son in the parable of the lost son). But the fact is that as far as our eternal habitation is concnerned, we'll have to rely upon someone else's wealth.


Date:
21 Sep 2001
Time:
17:16:23

Comments

The Key to this passage-The worldly are more astutethan the other Worldly in dealing with their own kind. The greek text renders it The children of this world are indeed wiser than the children of light. The Stewart?Manager was preparing for his future needs when he would no longer have his high position, the old saying the higher you get the harder you fall. Those who revel in dishonesty and corruption are preparing for the day when they will no longer occupy their position of influence&Power. Jesus is saying the Children of the World are doing something about their existence- What about the children of Light. The manager worked for his continued existence, what are you doing about your continued existence, saintwin-Florida


Date:
22 Sep 2001
Time:
00:21:28

Comments

Perhaps this parable isn't about us. At least its not about any kind of action, or morality, that we can do or achieve. Its certainly not meant to be an example of how we ought to behave (Pulpit Resources, pg. 53). Rather the point of the story is about the nature of God who forgives even thieves and white collar criminals, and perhaps you and I. This parable is about a God who actually enjoys eating with sinners. If the parable is about us, then only to the extent that it describes our nature as coniving sinners. All the more amazing is that we are forgiven. We're saved not because of who we are, but because of who God is. BS in NM


Date:
22 Sep 2001
Time:
07:37:44

Comments

MCP, Don't go there. Not now. Instead, why not focus on what percentage of giving the USA is responsible for, especially in humanitarian aid to other countries? How about what percentage of Americans have died on foreign soil to protect freedom, especially as compared to other countries? Or how about what percentage of missionaries sent to foreign lands are American? What percentage of foreign debt has America forgiven as compared to other nations? What percentage of the UN does America fund? No MCP, don't go where America-bashers have gone for decades, don't focus on what America-haters are quick to pounce on. Not now. Not this week. For Christ's sake, focus on what your mission as priest is. Preach the Word. God's sustaining and saving grace found only in Jesus Christ. Do you dare? Rick in Va


Date:
22 Sep 2001
Time:
08:55:22

Comments

mpc, Sounds like Rick knows the answer. It's high. I've looked for, but can't find, the number you are seeking. Seems once I read that our share of the world's population was less than 10% and our consumption of the world's resources was over 70%, but that is a hazy memory and I couldn't swear to it. I do remeber it was extremely disproportionate. Maybe the high number was the share of the world's wealth we hold, but that certainly relates to access to resources. I think I know why you ask, and you are right on track. Part of truly lamenting(like Jeremiah) is repenting. Part of figuring out why the tragedy of last week happened is owning up to our part in it, and our consumptive lifestyle is one of the things(of several I've heard proposed)that some others in the world dislike about us. As rick would have you recall, we dole a lot out too, though often with conditions and strings attached, expecting the paupers to adore and admire us. Much like the steward who takes what isn't his and gives it to others thinking they will love him for it instead of recognizing him for being a user. If that wasn't where you were going, sorry. It's still a good question. Hope you find the answer. tom in TN(USA)


Date:
22 Sep 2001
Time:
09:35:18

Comments

Sermon outline for Luke 16:13 What gives us our direciton and purpose? A. Possessions? (money, status,etc.) do our possession own us? B. Belief system? (cults, radical Islam, etc.) Beliefs come from people, books,etc./ faith comes from God. There is a difference! C.Emotions (fear (terror),guilt,controll, unfinished busines, etc.) D. God? (our trust in God, loyalty to God,) What directed Jesus? Fear? the Jewish belief system? possessions? Unless I think of something else, I'm going to end discussion the phrase, "Balm of Gilead". Only the true master can give us this kind of healing. <http://home.twcny.rr.com> Lindy


Date:
22 Sep 2001
Time:
09:37:47

Comments

A Sermon from John Piper, focusing on Sorrow, Self-humbling and Steady Hope in Christ. Preaching the Word: http://www.desiringgod.org/Online_Library/OnlineArticles/Subjects/Suffering/ServiceOfSorrow.htm Rick in Va


Date:
22 Sep 2001
Time:
10:09:22

Comments

Tom in TN, I know what the liberal mantra is, the mantra used to fuel dissension and disunity. America is evil becaue she hoards resources, or uses them excessively, or doles them out with strings attached. America is evil because she is wealthy, and expansionist, arrogant and self-absorbed. The list goes on. Some may be emboldened to think that we can go back to the mantras of the sixties and use tired, old, re-treaded slogans and chants to emphasize the sinfulness of America. I simply think one must point carefully when pointing out America's evils, and if one is to point, then be sure to stand in front of a mirror, especially if you regularly occupy a pulpit. Your mission as priest, as pastor, as shepherd, is to spell out time and time again, our need for a Savior, our need for a Redeemer, our need for the balm of Gilead. If you're going to point out the evils of America, be sure to define what it is that makes America. It is Americans. Be sure to define the evil that resides in every heart. Point out the darkness that lives within each of us, and most especially, the wayward ways of those who think highly of themselves because they stand in the pulpit. Falwell, Robertson and others have played the blame game well, go ahead and stoop to their level but do them one better. Acknowledge that the blame game ought to be a game of solitaire. Preach that evil begins at home. And that there is but one conqueror of evil. As Piper has so articulately put it, mighty militarys, outstanding political leadership, sound economic and environmental policies, all fall short in the battle against evil. We need to acknowledge our sinfulness and our need for Jesus Christ. And we need to repent of the attitude that has set that need aside for far too long. America evil? You bet. But not as liberal mantras and peace-nik slogans has painted her. She is evil in that she has relied, focused, and emphasized far too many other things and has neglected the Lordship, the uniqueness, the saving grace of God found only in Jesus Christ. May God have mercy on all of us. Rick in Va


Date:
22 Sep 2001
Time:
10:30:19

Comments

URL is not quite right for "Lindy" try this: (http://home.twcny.rr.com/lyndale


Date:
22 Sep 2001
Time:
11:00:27

Comments

Rick in VA, I have another option. We could take the more radical approach and say that evil is found not in individuals but also in structures. We in the Western World (not just the US) are all complicit in an evil structure that allows us to benefit froma grossly inequitable distribution of wealth and resources---so much so that what we call "the poor" sometimes earn more than the majority of people in some countries. As prophets and pastors we have a responsibility to point this out, admitting that we are equally complicit. We are called to preach the creation of a new heaven and a new earth where justice flows down like waters and peace like an everlasting stream. This point in history where the world stops to ask WHY? in response to the WTC bombing is an opening to treat these questions seriously. Gord in ON


Date:
22 Sep 2001
Time:
15:22:47

Comments

Very late in the week, but in all three of the lections I see our and God's vulnerability. Both preacher Jeremiah and God weep. In I Tim. we are encouraged to pray for everyone, especially our leaders who have much responsibility. Prayer is powerful. Jesus? "We are weak, but He is strong." As for the Luke reading, what could be more vulnerable than a dishonest steward? He is clever, and seems to get away with protecting himself--financially, socially. But what of being faithful with the little with which we are entrusted, those moments of prayer awareness that, according to St. Paul. need to "continue" always? What about being entrusted with the redeeming Love of Christ that was meant to include all persons, to the "least"? In view of the past week(s) events, can we dare to look at our vulnerability as the begining of true faithfulness? It turns out that people "don't feel like shopping" these days. Bad for the economy. Good for the soul. There is nothing quite solid in the world anymore, never was, but now we KNOW. So there is nothing we can do--after giving blood and putting up the flag and writing some checks--except praying. Moment by moment, we will have time for that. And there are still plenty of people who need our help,in a compassionate and practical sense, both within and without the prescribed boundaries. I see this Sunday's forming message one of Lament that includes a lifting up of our hearts in Hope. bpaSouth.Tier


Date:
22 Sep 2001
Time:
16:11:58

Comments

Sorry Gord... that's more of the same song, different tune. Show me in Scripture where there's evil in structures then we can talk. Rick in Va


Date:
22 Sep 2001
Time:
17:28:24

Comments

Rick in VA - I don't understand why you are so angry and abusive with your answers. Perhaps that is not your intent and if so I appologize. We are all trying to help our congregations get a grip on what has happened. Part of that is understanding why the terrorist hate Americans. We need not "bash" our country to do that. This is a time for healing, but it is also a time of honesty. If we don't look at the events from a number of viewpoints we are no better than the religous fanatics who did these terrible things. They too think they have the answers. In reality only God has the answers. It is our task to lay ourselves before God just as we are, as a nation and as individules. Rick I will keep you in my prayers. mcp


Date:
22 Sep 2001
Time:
18:08:11

Comments

Friends - Rick makes a good point with "don't go there yet" - there is a time for every part of this process: rage and fear and wanting revenge, and then realizing what that means and knowing we need to forgive and not being able to, and then turning the whole deal over to God and snatching it back ... I pray that we as pastors may sense where people are and let them travel gently. (new ¶) Did anyone else hear this on Marketplace, NPR, last week? For me it is a mandate to deal with the elemental question of what we do with wealth. It's by Rev. John Wimberly of Western Presbyterian Church in DC, whom I thank for sharing it in written form. (Sorry for the late post, I've been away all week.) kbc in sc Rev. John Wimberly, Western Presbyterian Church, Washington DC as heard on NPR’s Marketplace, September 13, 2001 To some, the World Trade Towers were a symbol of an economic system that works. To others, they were a symbol of an economic system whose success is built on exploitation. Regardless of where one stands in the debate about the causes of wealth and poverty, Tuesday's terrorism leaves us no choice but to admit that fear, hatred and violence increasingly define the relations between the rich and poor. Those who don't have wealth fear that their children's lives will be worse than their own. Anger grows as they watch their loved ones die of diseases that disappeared years ago in developed nations. Leaders who foster hatred of the developed nations suddenly sound reasonable. Those who have wealth grow increasingly fearful of the masses of poor people. They become resentful that their wealth does not give them the freedom and safety they once assumed it would create. Leaders who tell them that the poor are a threat to their well-being suddenly sound reasonable. It is a recipe for madness. A blueprint for mutual self-destruction. Where does it end?     The world's major religions all agree that it is the responsibility of those who have to help those who do not. Jesus, for example, talked about financial stewardship more than any other single issue. What we do or don't do with our money is an issue of profound spiritual significance. The strong are supposed to help the weak. And isn't the well-being of others an important aspect of good economic policy as well? Impoverished people don't buy products. Uneducated people don't constitute a good workforce. Strong economies produce jobs that can enable the poor to build a better future for themselves and their families. Long term economic self-interest requires attention to the needs of others. If both economists and the world's religions agree that self-interest and the interest of all are inseparably intertwined, what is the problem? The problem is fear, fear that morphs into hostility...that morphs into a willingness to fly a plane into a skyscraper; or fear that turns into a vengeance-filled cruise missile flying through the night with hopes that it will hit an enemy. The opposite of fear is faith. Our daily lives are built on hundreds of large and small acts of faith. We have faith that when we get on a plane, it will take us to the scheduled destination; that when we sit in an office, we are safe, that the sun will set tonight and rise tomorrow. What is at stake today is whether we will live lives of fear or lives of faith. We live in a national and personal moment of truth.


Date:
22 Sep 2001
Time:
18:09:45

Comments

Okay, so haow do we make paragraphs? kbc in sc


Date:
22 Sep 2001
Time:
21:16:59

Comments

Rick, All you say is true, and that doesn't change the truth of what I said. Perhaps this should be taken up on the discussion board, but in my defense, I was only trying to answer a question about statistics, which in turn, I felt, answered a question about one source of hatred. You said such statistics equalled a charge of evil. I never said America was evil. We are, both corporately and individually(yes, myself included{he typed on his thousand dollar computer}), used to using up and throwing away on a weekly basis, more than many will have in a lifetime. It's true. For most of us it isn't even a representation of Greed, it's a matter of convention. Not avarice, but expectation. We don't do it lustily and heartily, we do it mindlessly(or absent-mindedly?). Some folks mind. And it would do us well to keep it in mind. If you don't want to change your mind, don't. But don't expect the folks who hate you to change theirs' either. There is much in scripture that condemns the rich(individually, and as a class) for the use and abuse of the poor. Read the prophets. tom, rich in TN


Date:
22 Sep 2001
Time:
22:51:48

Comments

Rick read the prophets "I hate I despise your feasts and offerings" "Let justice roll down like waters" AMos crying that the people havwe forgotten the widow and the orphan. Jesus proclaiming the year of the Jubilee. I guess the difference is that you and I see the basic theological question differently. Gord

 

Previous discussion:

 
 
01 Sep 1998
22:12:57

I am looking for contributions on Luke 16:1-13. I will be preaching this text on Sept. 20th and as a seminarian, I need all the help I can get!


06 Sep 1998
15:41:27

This is definately a stewardship sermon. It brings a story to mind:

[note: In Dallas, I often shopped at a large grocery chain called "Tom Thumb."]

A pastor I know always joked that St. Peter would ask to see checkbook registers at the pearly gates to see where people *really* put their priorities. He also said that St. Peter was look at him and say, not bad, sir, but who in the world is "Tom Thumb" and why did you pay him more than you paid your church?

Works with J.C. Penney, Wards, etc. as well as many local businesses!

Mark from Ark


06 Sep 1998
15:43:00

Does anyone know where I can find the statistic on how many times Jesus taught about money, property, etc. I remember reading once that Jesus talked about stewardship some 80% of the time, but I don't know where I got that.

Mark in Ark


07 Sep 1998
13:47:41

Who is our God?

I have finally come to the conclusion that Christians have little idea about "God." In a therapuetic culture she has come to mean 'highest power.' He may mean the 'generosity of the universe' or a 'good glowing feeling' -- we are so unaware that God is the God of Israel. Not to understand that is not to understand anything in the Gospels, especially a parable like this in the tradition of the great prophets. If God is the highest power or a generous feeling then she can be identified with Mammon as much as she can with the God of Israel. We need to understand that our God is a jealous God and there are no other God's above him - that includes all my possessions - and the stuff I still want to horde.

Tom in GA


07 Sep 1998
13:57:19

For Mark in Ark: 1/3 of parables, over 2,000 verses, 2nd most frequently discussed subject in the ministry of Jesus -- next only to teaching of the kingdom. 272 verses -- believing 371 verses -- prayer 714 verses -- love 2172 verses -- possessions & giving.

Peace, M.A.R.


07 Sep 1998
13:59:38

That didn't print unambiguously, so: 272 verses are on believing; 371 verses are on prayer; 714 verses are on love; 2172 verses are on possessions and giving. Peace, M.A.R.


11 Sep 1998
05:03:57

This will take some time for me to untangle! To our friend of Sept 01 (and others):

Malina & Rorhbaugh offer us this understanding of vs 8: "Having discovered the mercy of the landowner of not putting him in prison or demanding repayment, the manager depends upon a similar reaction in the scheme he cooks up. It is a scheme that places the landowner in a peculiar bind. If he retracts the actions of the manager, he risks serious alienation in the village, where they would have already been celebrating his astonishing generosity. If he allows the reductions to stand, he will be praised far and wide (as will the manager for having "arranged" them) as a noble and generous man. It is the latter reaction on which the manager counts."

He's a sneaky guy. He seems to have made friends by giving away what was not his, in such a way that the owner was obliged to honor his (the manager's) dishonest distribution.

How about a little help from you fine students of scripture? Are we suppossed to give away other people's wealth? (That can't be it.) Does the end (redistribution of wealth) justify the means? One exegete maintains that the manager was giving away his commission, and by doing so was ingratiating himself. Is that it? If so, so what? Working for God is giving up more than our commissions!

I can see stewardship here, just can't see it clearly yet!

HW in HI


12 Sep 1998
18:25:47

From the Matthew Henry Commentary: "Whatever we have, the property of it is God's; we have only the use of it, according to the direction of our great Lord, and for his honour. This steward wasted his lord's goods. And we are all liable to the same charge; we have not made due improvement of what God has trusted us with. The steward cannot deny it; he must make up his accounts, and be gone. This may teach us that death will come, and deprive us of the opportunities we now have. The steward will make friends of his lord's debtors or tenants, by striking off a considerable part of their debt to his lord. The lord referred to in this parable commended not the fraud, but the policy of the steward. In that respect alone is it so noticed. Worldly men, in the choice of their object, are foolish; but in their activity, and perseverance, they are often wiser than believers. The unjust steward is not set before us as an example in cheating his master, or to justify any dishonesty, but to point out the careful ways of worldly men. It would be well if the children of light would learn wisdom from the men of the world, and would as earnestly pursue their better object. The true riches signify spiritual blessings; and if a man spends upon himself, or hoards up what God has trusted to him, as to outward things, what evidence can he have, that he is an heir of God through Christ? The riches of this world are deceitful and uncertain. Let us be convinced that those are truly rich, and very rich, who are rich in faith, and rich toward God, rich in Christ, in the promises; let us then lay up our treasure in heaven, and expect our portion from thence. "


12 Sep 1998
18:48:14

Tom in Ga,

OK, I'm biting... why the irritating and quite distracting use of both she and he for God? What is the point?

Rick in Va.


12 Sep 1998
18:56:31

Tom in Ga,

I do ask respectfully. I think it's important to know...

Rick in Va.


13 Sep 1998
14:07:05

"Give me an accounting of your management, because you cannot be my manager any longer...."

and

"Whoever is faithful in a very little is faithful also in much; and whoever is dishonest in a very little is dishonest also in much."

I admit to struggling with pieces of this gospel message. I'm uneasy with the apparent affirmation of the dishonesty (shrewdness) of the manager. However, the verses listed above are clear and seemingly leave lttle room for wrestling. First, Jesus is implying accountability. The idea that standards of behavior are to be set for people in positions of power and then lived by and that there are clear consequences for those who fail to live by them (removal from said job). Secondly, he asks whether we can trust those in the larger things when they're dishonest with the smaller.

By now we've all either read or have heard about the Starr report. The gospel for the week speaks to us clearly and loudly to this sordid time. This is not about casting the first stone or prematurely judging a brother (or sister) as so many have stated in the President's defense (some right here in this forum). I believe this Scripture speaks to the kind of response we as Christians should have to the Starr report.

The President eloquently and with emotion, spoke before shepherds at the prayer breakfast Friday morning. I felt hopeful that we were on the way to putting all of this behind us. Then he mentioned that he was ordering his lawyers to put on a vigorous defense. I was perplexed. His lawyers are denying the very behaviors I thought the President was feeling convicted of. It's clear that this is more of the same. This President is the master of contrived conviction, and of defending himself at all costs despite and in spite of the truth. It's more of the same. He is dishonest (admittedly so). He is obviously shrewd. He cannot be trusted. He must go.

George Will, on ABC's This Week this morning, defined immorality at it core as the using of human beings as a means rather than an end. This President is immoral beyond doubt.

This week's gospel implores us as a nation to apply its lessons. Will it be preached?

Rick in Va


13 Sep 1998
15:46:59

Tom in GA:

In response to your question, "Who is our God?"

Last week's Psalm (14) clearly points us to a God Who is deeply personal and invovled in the smallest details of our daily lives.

Whatever "idea" you (he/she) or your people may have, the God of the Bible is love.

OKBob


13 Sep 1998
21:01:42

Dear All,

The message which I find will preach is to be found largely in verse 13. The human drama being lived out in the lives of those who sit in the pews of the churches where we serve consists largely of the tug of war between the "two masters" in our lives -- the religious "master", and the secular "master". How hard it is to choose between serving the Lord and protecting our families. How hard it is to choose between honoring God and responding in kind those who cut us off on the highways (both the literal highways and the figurative highways). How hard it is to choose between our love for Jesus and our love of ourselves. In this sense, the "master" wealth equates to anything (including money but not limited at all to money) which gets in the way of our relationship with God. Hence, "you cannot serve God and that which gets in the way of your service to God".

Is this a stewardship message? I think not. I think, rather, it is about the choices we make. To be sure, stewardship is also about choices, but this passage strikes me at the more basic level of psyche. I'm reminded of Frost's poem about two roads which diverge in a woods. The root of the problem is not unlike the stuff of Greek tragedy, for, in the final analysis, the often competing desires have *legitimate* claims on our lives. Those among us who are ordained and married know all about competing claims. Both sets of promises, those of ordination and those of marriage, are equally compelling, and both are holy. How shall we choose?

No one can serve two masters. No matter how I look at it, I still come up with the same message -- there is a tug of war in our souls, and the stuff of redemption lies in how we respond to the various competing claims.

Jim

P.S. To those who are feeling judgmental these days, may an old pastor offer some perhaps sage advice: the preacher's role is not to judge, but to pray; when you begin to feel righteously indignant about the behavior of another, obviously more sinful person than yourself, pray for that person by name -- it's hard either to judge or to hate one for whom we pray.


13 Sep 1998
22:57:07

This may be an over-simplification, but what about seeing the "property" here as a metaphor for God's Grace? Going back to the lessons from this week past, we had a lot of talk about the 1 and the 99. I am reminded of Nailbender's hooker story. Anyway, the 99 represent those who are already Jesus' disciples (notice that this is a private parable not told in public). Disciples could also be the recipients-of - and as Jesus' disciples - MANAGERS-of God's Grace. So -- if "property" is a metaphor for Grace in this lesson, then we are to "deal shrewdly" in being gracious to people who wrong us so that the God's Grace is made real in us and our own "discounting" of other people's "bills". God is the "rich man" who has conrol over all of the Grace given, and it is the duty of Christ's disciples to imitate that Grace - because we can never repay what we owe the "rich man." Is that too easy? Am I wrong? (I came up with this theme without using a commentary). Joel in BoCoMo


13 Sep 1998
23:04:23

The more I think about this, the more I think my thinking is as clear as mud. THIS is how the key sentence of my contribution should read: [So -- if "property" is a metaphor for Grace in this lesson, then perhaps we are to "deal shrewdly" via being gracious to people who sin against us or against God so that God's Grace is made real through us by our own gracious "discounting" (forgiveness) of other people's "bills" (sins).] --Joel in BoCoMo


13 Sep 1998
23:19:58

I want to expand on Jim's contribution in which he says it is a tug of war in the soul. I think the tug of war may be the temptation for the children of light to act like the children of the world. Chris says the children ofthe world know how to operate in their realm more than the children of the light. That's true. We try to bring rules of the world to bear on the arena of faith. The tug of war could be answering hate with hate rather than love, taking care of oneself through lying and cheating. We as children of light need to how thepower that is available to us, the grace, mercy, peace and love within which we can operate. I don't think this has that much to do with stewardship as it does with the spiritual battle that goes on inside of us. STAN


13 Sep 1998
23:56:17

I was just wondering the other day if this is not a text about forgiveness. Isn't that what forgiveness is all about? If everything we have and are belongs to God, than every sin against us is always and foremost against God. Whenever we forgive sins, therefore, we are really forgiving debts not truly owed to us.

This is doubly true for pastor's. When I say on Sunday morning: "I therefore declare the entire forgiveness of all your sins." I am really going much further than the steward in the parable. These are not debts owed to me.

But we have been entrusted with this ministry of forgiveness, havn't we? I may be way off on this. (This would be the very first time something like this has happened to me....) Let me know what you think.

Rev Darby


14 Sep 1998
00:03:46

I just noticed that Joel is on the same track as I am. (Perhaps I should read more carefully next time! And, actually, I didn't read mine in any commentary -- at least that I remember. I was contemplating this text once when I was falling asleep and this just came to me.)

I don't know if it's just that simple, but this looks like a helpful hemeneutical key to me. Maybe God's Grace/forgiveness IS the main point of the story.

Another thought: this man's back was against the wall and he did an honest assessment of himself and his situation and did, out of desparation (like us desparate preachers?) the only thing he knew to do. My question would be (attempting to employ Luther's second use of the law): does anyone really surrender their life to Jesus except out of utter desparation?

Rev Darby


14 Sep 1998
01:43:53

Lighten up, desperate preachers! Jesus is hilarious, better than Seinfeld. The disciples are rolling in the grass laughing. They've never been partial to rich men or their managers. One good preacher told me his secret was to start people out with a chuckle. A spoonful of sugar to get the medicine down at the end. Anyone want to say more about Jesus' sense of humor? Anne in Providence


14 Sep 1998
12:17:50

There seems to be a lot of discussion about stewardship on this passage. I'm not sure it has anything to do with stewarship, (in the way we think of it as raising a budget). F. F. Bruce's "Hard Sayings of Jesus" is helpful in that he yokes this passage with the Lazarus passage which soon follows, (both begin with "there was a rich man"). The issue is not possessions (or stewardship), but relationship!

Brin in LA


14 Sep 1998
15:41:39

This is the first time I’ve ever used this site at a time when I truly felt like a "desperate preacher", but I could really use everyone’s and anyone’s help with this one: There’s a legend about an old man who asks a question of --- was it a girl or a guy? -- holding out a young bird in his hand. He asks, "Tell me, is the bird in my hand dead or alive?" The young man/woman knew that if they answered "alive, the old man would crush the young bird, thereby killing it. If he/she answered "dead", he would hold out the living bird. So --- and here’s the punch line: he/she answered, "The answer is "you will decide". Now --- it’s obvious I don’t recall all the details of this story, so here’s what I’m asking: has anyone else heard this one? Can you tell me the details I’m missing? Please???!! If you’d like to just e-mail me, my address is ktully@ionet.net Thank you!


14 Sep 1998
16:34:00

HW in HI and all,

regarding giving away other people's money:

This Sunday, I am hoping to lead in to Sept 27 when our Finance Committee and Administrative Board will place an envelope in the hand of each person in the pews. In the envelope will be at least 10$. (I say "at least" because our Ad brd chair now wants to make it $100.)

Our guest preacher will preach the same sermon he preached at his church when they did the same thing. Something like..."you've been given this, now give it away."

The leaders of my church decided to do this rather than run a finance campaign. I'm so excited, and I want this Sunday's sermon to be just the right prelude. I think for the first time in my four years of ministry, I might actually use the word, "money" in my sermon. And then maybe I'll talk about TRUE RICHES. I'll ask, "How are YOU hearing this story? How will you handle that which has been given to you?

peace, Alane


14 Sep 1998
16:54:42

My initial reaction to this passage was: I don't need this right now -- what else can I preach on! Thanks, Jim for the Robert Frost poem reminder, I think that's the tack that I'll take -- life is choices -- good choices/bad choices (maybe even shrewd choices). We have to decide if we are going to serve God or mammon. For those of you who don't know the poem, it begins:

Two roads diverged in a yellow wood, And sorry I could not travel both, I chose the one less-traveled by, And that has made all the difference.

There is even an anthem of the poem.

Frankly, I don't feel I can preach directly on Clinton, or Starr, because of the children who are present in my congregation. I CAN preach on bad choices, responsibility and forgiveness, however.

Forbid them not talks about the four lessons that Jesus draws from the story. It does not detail those four lessons. Anyone else have an idea what they may be?

Is anyone else disturbed by the owner congratualting the manager? If so, how do you plan to explain it???

RevJan

PS Thanks for all your prayers last night. The steering and brakes went out on my van when I was trying to take Matthew to a youth group. Both kids were with me, Bob was not. We waited 1 1/2 hours for AAA. Bunches of cars passed us. No one stopped to offer help . . .


14 Sep 1998
17:07:33

Humor indeed. Elton Trueblood talks about this parable as one of the many times he believes Jesus is sharing a good one with the disciples ("The Humor of Christ," Harper and Row, 1964, pp 98-110).

Hmm. Maybe. The whole thing does take on a different tone in that light:

"Did you hear the one about the dishonest manager? This guy was the shrewdest!"

"How shrewed WAS he?"

"He was SO shrewd that when..."

As the disciples role in the grass, as Anne suggests, then we can hear Jesus slapping his leg his in joyful sarcasm, "And I tell you, make friends for yourselves by means of dishonest wealth so that when it is gone, they may welcome you into the eternal homes!"

At least this is easier to swallow than some of the interpretive gymnastics by "learned" scholars (as Trueblood says) that have been concocted to make sense of this passage. Easier and more fun!

pHil


14 Sep 1998
20:53:25

A quote I once heard David Buttrick utter when he was at a seminar at Austin Presbyterian Theological Seminary "We are not called to be stupid sheep"

and to the brother who said that we are to give up more than our commission-apparently, you have never been in commission sales, where the commission is all you make!

RevGilmer


14 Sep 1998
21:15:46

Humor is a definite possibility. But seeing as I barely "get it", it would be a real push for my congregation, whose sense of Hebrew humor is more limited than my own!

William Herzog treats this parable at length (and length) and offers us a few good insights, which I would like to share:

o The debtors are probably tenant farmers or sharecroppers.

o The manager acts shrewdly out of real desparation. He is of the "retainer" class, and without a decent position, will starve. Those younger and stronger will get the digging work. He will not be accustomed to the periods of starvation, and will be forced to beg while his health declines, and becomes like Lazarus (at the gate.)

o The manager can only expect so much hospitality from those he's benefitted, they are at a subsistence level themselves.

o The manager acted shrewdly because the tenants still owe the master, only in a "hidden contract." When the patron gives, he also indebts. The master has been given new cards to play, even while enjoying an exzcellent reputation.

o In the final analysis, "the twisted machinations of debtors and desparate scheming of the steward led to a lowering of debt to which the master agreed, for whatever reason. The result was the glimpse for the debtors of another order, one in which forgiveness of debt would be more than a petition in prayer."

For me, this is enough to make sense out of the parable for our people, and at the same time move toward a discussion of real forgiveness. Those debts Jesus cancelled for us are beyond value, priceless tickets. Our new hidden contract - such a deal!

HW in HI


14 Sep 1998
22:43:08

Brothers and sisters,

Thanks, Jim, for the wonderful insight about the "choices" aspect of this text. I still think that it is about stewardship, too. Jesus doesn't seem to say here that the manager was right or wrong -- only shrewd! He is obviously cunning and I believe dishonest. If a manager is willing to go to this length over money, why is it that we aren't willing to go the honest extra mile for the gospel. That includes choices, relationships, and stewardhip. But that's too much for one sermon. I'm hoping to find a little prayerful insight based on the 8th verse. I'll hit a few commentaries tonight.

To Alane: I heard of a stewardship campaign that ran very similar. A large Presbyterian church handed every person in the congregation an envelope. Some contained only a dollar; some as much as a $100 bill. The sermon was on the recent text we had in the lectionary about the three stewards (2 invested & doubled; 1 hid his talents). The congregation was then challenged to take their envelope and choose how to deal with it. I can't remember the figures, but the initial investment from the envelopes more than tripled -- and it was a sizable congregation that put up several thousand dollars. When the monies were returned, the text was read and the congregation challenged to fill out their pledge cards with the same level of commitment.

Peace all,

Mark


15 Sep 1998
05:08:19

To ktully, I am looking for your story (I hope you will share it with us if you find the details -- it is quite charming). Meanwhile, did not want you to think you were 4gotten. I have several possible sources I will check this evening. Shalom, HW in HI


15 Sep 1998
05:13:52

Dear RevGilmer, I do understand the reality of giving up commission as possibly being all one earns. And yet, I am looking for something more. That mystery that is outside any quid-pro-quo (grace making that impossible, anyway.) Nevertheless, I admit to often being a bit slow, perhaps this is one of those weeks.... HW in HI


15 Sep 1998
07:48:39

my thoughts before i read anyone elses - and to tell you the truth it is blowing my mind that i've come up with this: The manager actually seems to do what God does - he is extravagant - and he forgives! (of course he forgives someone else's money, but he does forgive the heavy debt that these people had by half.) other than that, this makes no sense to me.

rachel


15 Sep 1998
08:06:03

Was thinking of using a story in which the converted Ebeneezer Scrooge, disguised as his former self, returns to the counting house to deal with Bob Cratchitt's (sp?) evil twin Simon, who's been mismanaging Scrooge's assets. When he lets Cratchitt go and finds that he's been forgiving debts (as in "forgive us our debts")for nefarious reasons, he congratulates him for doing good, doing God's will, despite himself. We can learn from the hurdles God throws up in our way, even if our first reaction may be spiteful. If Bill Clinton could start to see himself as God's lost lamb and bleat for the shepherd to come get him and bring him home, he might be on the way to rehabilitation.

Just some musing in the Berkshires. s Jane in Lenox


15 Sep 1998
08:06:48

I don't think we are talking about his (dishonest manager's)commissions here. Craddock says that if the dishonest steward just cut out his commission, how could he be dishonest? The truth is, this is a parable in which we are VERY uncomfortable becuase it doesn't sound like Christ, especially all those tagged on sayings at the end about making friends for yourselves by means of dishonest wealth. We have to look at how Scripurew was put into this form and we may have to make some decisions as to parameters we will use. If you are going to read the dishonest steward, you have to be prepared to deal with it for the congregation's sake. I may take Craddock suggestion and deal with one of the sayngs--who is faihtfu inlittle is faithful in much--he suggests that could mean that we as Christiansare called to pay attention to the little details--that many ofus will not be called upon to sacrifice our lives,give up everything, but we will be called upon to help a neighbor, love an enemy, feed someone's cat, do a kind deed. He suggests that Christ is bridging the gap between whatt we call great and important and what Christ calls great and important STAN


15 Sep 1998
09:24:39

Greetings! I do not see "forgiveness" in this passage. I am reading that --you cannot be children of light and children of the world. We are different. Children of light are the heirs of the Kingdom. children of the world are the lost sheep, still in need of Christ's atonement. "You cannot serve God and wealth". Vs. 16:9 And I tell you, make friends for yourselves by means of dishonest wealth so that when it is gone, they may welcome you into the eternal homes" --I interpret as, you will go to hell with the others who are still dishonest. Jesus is saying (I think), "Choose this day whom you will serve" I heard a story yesterday on the radio-- John Chrysostom, it is said, had to appear before an emperor. "Deny Christ" the emperor said. "No" replied John. "Then I will ban you from all of your father's land, you can never come back." "That is impossible, sir, " John replied, "my Father's is the landowner of the entire world, you cannot ban me from His land." The emperor said, "then, I shall remove your inheritance, I will take all of your possessions and you will have nothing!" John said, "My treasures are stored up in heaven, you cannot touch them." The emperor said, "Deny Christ, or I will remove you from all family and friends, you will be very lonely and have no one to talk to for the rest of you life." " My Brother Christ is always with me and I will always be able to talk to Him and He to me." Finally, the emperor said,"Then I shall take your life and kill you." John said camly, "My life belongs to Jesus, whether on earth or in heaven, I am with Him." 16:13 No slave can serve two masters; for a slave will either hate the one and love the other, or be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth." I hope this helps someone. LHS


15 Sep 1998
10:03:31

Concerning 16:8ff, Peterson in "The Message" has: "Now here's the surprise: The master praised the crooked manager! Why? Because he knew how to look after himself. Streetwise people are smarter ... than law-abiding citizens. They are on constant alert, looking for angles, surviving by their wits. I want you to be smart in the same way--but for what is RIGHT--using every adversity to stimulate you to creative survival, to concentrate your attention on the bare esentials, so you'll live, really live, and not complacently just get by on good behavior." Hoping this might help someone in some way...

Sonfilled in NC


15 Sep 1998
16:05:26

To RevJan and others thinking of the Frost poem:

It actually begins:

Two roads diverged in a yellow wood And sorry I could not travel both And be one traveller, long I stood And looked down one as far as I could To where it bent in the undergrowth.

The popular interpretation is that it's a poem about making unpopular decisions, but careful analysis reveals another interpretation.

The middle of the poem makes the point repeatedly that the two paths are both untraveled:

"as for that the passing there had worn them really about the same.

Both that morning EQUALLY lay in leaves NO STEP HAD TRODDEN BLACK..." emphasis mine, of course.

It is only when anticipating telling others "ages and ages hence" that the speaker claims they were different and says with a sigh,

Two roads diverged in a wood and I, I took the one less traveled by And that has made all the difference.

So, it would seem the poem is more about our selective memories or about our abilities to deceive ourselves and others to create "legends" maybe like Camelot.

KenTucky


15 Sep 1998
16:32:22

Stewardship? It seems to me this is a story about relationships. Maybe the Stewardship of relationships, but not the stewardship of money or goods. God is far more interested in our being in relationship than anything else. Maybe it is about securing relationship whatever the cost?


15 Sep 1998
16:40:56

Judging from my reading of the text, and from the comments many have made, I have come to the conclusion that what we have here are two divergent Jesus teachings, each authentically Jesus', and yet each leading us in a different sermon direction. Teaching #1 (properly identified by Joel in BoCoMo) is that we should be as generous with God's grace, and our own forgiveness, as any crafty business manager might be, if he knew his future depended on being generous to a fault. "Forgive us our debts as we forgive others." Also, remember "the measure with which you give out forgiveness is the one that will be used when you are judged" (my translation). Jesus can be the crafty manager, for he gave us generous, nay, spendthift grace. You and I should be like that, giving spendthrift grace to one another, and to all who are in debt to us, that is, all who have sinned against us. The second teaching is this: don't serve Mammon, be a wise steward who lives by all the rules, etc. This is added, I believe, by Jesus as a kind of "now kids, don't try this at home" warning. But taken by itself, or made into the primary message, then we have only good, respectable, boring Pharisaism. The scandal of the text is that Jesus offends us with point number one, despite his use of point number two. I worry that so many want to stick to #2 as a way to slam Clinton. (He who is without sin throw the first Biblical quotation?) I am a fallen sinner, and I pray Jesus is still a spendthrift when he gets to my case. Boyd in NC


15 Sep 1998
21:08:25

Sonfilled in NC -- thanks for reminding me about The Way. I will use that translation to begin . . .

KenTucky -- thanks for the right words of the poem. 30+ years after singing it, it's a little difficult to remember all the details. Still, with any luck the one English teacher that attends my church won't be there this Sunday . . . Is that proof texting?

Many Christian students will be gathering at their school's flag poles tomorrow, Wednesday, September 16 to pray for their friends, fellow students, schools, communities and nation. If you have the chance, join students at your local school.

RevJan


15 Sep 1998
23:24:14

I tend to agree with Jim and Stan. We can read too much into this parable... and when we do that, we risk losing the radicalness Jesus may have intended.

I don't believe the issue is money or stewardship... although one could certainly 'adapt' some of these verses for that purpose.

This is a text about choices and accountability. The truth is, the steward in Jesus' story was a crook! He manipulated funds for his own personal gain. He was shrewd... he knew how to prepare for his worldly future.

Jesus' point was that we human beings are more shrewd about things of this world than we are about the things of God. And, like the steward in our story, there will be a day of accountability for us, too. I'm going to read only vs. 1-8 and deal with the parable, and not the verses that Luke has added on.

This is a parable about choices... choices that have eternal consequences. Jesus calls us to be shrewd, sometimes making radical choices as his followers.

pianoman


16 Sep 1998
07:33:51

I. The use of allegory as a primary literary tool in the gospels may suggest the context of meaning here is focused upon "grace" and "relational phenomena". The wise use of "love", whether eros, philia, or agape, reveals the more we distribute/give away the greater unlimited abundance there apparently is to draw from. 2. However, the literal application of this scandelous gospel message also has some relevance to recent history and/or historical interpretation. The "ecopolitical theorist" of the 19th and 20th centuries assessed the long range system at work in history as dividing the "haves" from the "have-nots"...the "haves" excluding and pushing out the "have-nots" from power/etc....and thus, all the social institutions-(economic, political, educational, religious, and cultural)-became a "means of power" of the elite to maintain the status quo of the wealthy. From this frame this gospel revelation could scandelously suggest a redistribution of the wealth...particularly the wealth of the Kingdom of God...and thus the contemporary models of critical theory from the historic frame of reference of Marx-Engels, and even Huey Long, are not unlike the "management model" Jesus lifts before the disciples. (Being born not far from the birth-place of Huey, let me remind you of the "hope" fed to the poor of Louisiana in his "gospel" of "EVERY MAN A KING" and "I DECLARE WAR ON TEXACO"!...By the way Texaco is still in power and Louisiana is still a very poor State,i.e., the masses, in every way educationally, politically, economically, etc.! 3. Only a week ago Tom in GA conceptualized for me one of the most significant questions a UM pastor could ever raise, "where in the hell is God in all of this?", meaning the context of WASP wherein in most of our Churches we do not have the "riches" of diversity and inclusiveness,...we generally look alike due to our limited popupation served based on socio-economic middle to upper-middle class. Many have been "pushed-out" due to our life-style mode of being based on a "competitive", rather than "cooperative", economic model. 4. The PRESENCE of Christ, not his absence, IS where God IS. Christ is in his "word", paricularly this Gospel Revelation, as well as from week to week as we relive the life of Jesus in the liturgical year. Christ is in the witness of the word. Christ is in the sacraments of Baptism and Holy Communion. Christ 's PRESENCE is even in the ordained elder, as unfit as I am, in relation to his people. Christ is in his Holy Body, the Church, irrespective of our unconscious "pushing out of others" due to our blind conformity to cultural modes of being. Wesleyan heritage is all about "Wake Thou that sleepest and rise from the dead and Christ shall give thee light"! The PRESENCE of Christ has not gone down into the "pit"/"gehenna"/"sheol" for nothing. He went down there to get me. I can rise above blind conformity to cruel cultural norms and seek that transformation within my self-system, including culture and history. His Kingdom is beyond caste!...and beyond man's inhumanity to fellow human beings! 5. I believe every fifty years in Hebrew culture there was a redistribution of the wealth. This "fifty" is not unrelated to Pentecost. If our Chueches have unconsciously served only one class of "look-alike" people due to blind faith commitment of climbing cultural eco-ladders, then perhaps this gospel revelation can introduce us to another faith vision and system, Jacob's ladder, where we work to redistribute the riches of the Kindom of God with equity rather than to "push-out" all who are not like us.


16 Sep 1998
07:38:50

Sorry, I did not sign off-PaideiaSco@aol.com


16 Sep 1998
08:21:35

I've been meditating on v. 13. "No slave can serve two masters." Serving is my calling and I do it joyfully. For me "service" is a positive experience. But I hate being a slave to anyone. "No slave can serve (be a slave) to two masters." Here, a "to serve" is what a slave does. Now to "You cannot serve God and wealth." It is legitimate to translate this as "You cannot (be a slave) to God and wealth." Does God call us to be slaves or servants? Being a slave is directed from outside of me. Being a servant comes more from within, from my desire to serve. I don't think God wants us to be a slave to God. The choice is not as simple as either/or. There is a subtle play on words here which is quite common in the sayings of Jesus. Jesus was not against wealth. He made use of money himself and he had friends who were wealthy. The "upper room" was not in the house of one of his poorest acquaintances. God's creation is good. So is money. If we know God within and write God's covenant in our hearts, we will know that wealth is just as much a gift, just as sacred, as our prayers. I am still developing and thinking through this spin on Jesus' saying. As a preacher I am a spin doctor. Jesus was a great spin doctor. He had a great way of helping people see the good in people and the good in God's world. He gave people a sense of hope. That's what we have to do today. Irving


16 Sep 1998
08:58:44

I noticed that either nobody could post contributions on Tuesday, or all of Tuesday's contributions got erased. In either case I want to apologize for the inconvenience. In order to control costs I had to switch accounts, (since DPS had already reached the "allowed hit" ceiling this month). The switchover must have affected the ability to post. But things should be back to normal now. Thanks for your patience . . . Frank, DPS


16 Sep 1998
10:47:41

I've found a column worthy of clerical perusal (in my humble opinion at least).

It's at http://www.worldmag.com/world/issue/09-19-98/closing_1.asp

Please read and comment if one deems it's connected to the lectionary text.

Thanks,

Rick in Va.


16 Sep 1998
12:26:09

Faced with a limit situation, the steward devised limit acts that changed the scenario from a sorry and predictable tale of woe to a scene of rejoicing. The master who held all the cards lost the hand. The weapons of the weak employed by the debtors were matched with an arsenal of equal strength by the steward, whose weakness was also exposed. Out of the battle came a temporary respite for the debtors, a glimpse of a time when debts would be lowered, and a place where rejoicing could be heard. This may not be a parable of the reign of God, but it suggests how the weapons of the weak can produce results in a world dominated by the strong.

From: William R. Herzog, Parables as Subversive Speech.

Tom in GA


16 Sep 1998
13:33:24

I just want to add my support of Joel's insight from BoCoMo. This parable is one of a series of many parables. Parables that illustrate what the kingdom of God is like.

From H.N. Wendt of CrossWays, Intl.'s book , The Parables of Jesus, he points out "Jesus made unsavory characters in several other parables: the unjust judge, the neighbor who does not want to be bothered in the night, and the man who pockets someone else's treasure by buying his field. In three of those four cases, Jesus uses the rabbinic principle of "from light to heavy," which means generally, "How much more?" That is, if this widow got what she wanted from this kind of judge (18:1-9), how much more would you get from God? If this man got bread in the night from this neighbor (11:5-7), how much more would you get from God? If this dishonest steward solved his problem by relying on the mercy of his master to solve his crisis, how much more will God help you in your crsis when you trust His mercy?

"The unjust manager is praised for his wisdom in knowing where his salvation lay, not for his dishonesty.

"The entire parable offers insight into the nature of God, into the crises that the kingdom brings to the sinner, and into the only hope for humanity's salvation. It's message can be summarized as follows:

"God (the master) is a God of judgment and mercy. Because of his evil, man (the manager) is caught in the crisis of the coming of the kingdom. Excuses will avail the manager mothing. This clever rascal was wise enough to place his total trust in the quality of mercy experienced at the beginning of the story (the master could have jailed him, but fired him instead). That trust was vindicated.

"Disciples need the same kind of wisdom. Their only option is to entrust everything to the unfailing mercy of their genereous Heavenly Master who, they can be confident, will accept to pay the price for their salvation.

I would also toss in that Jesus was pretty shrewd hiimself in dealing with the Pharisees, he stood up to them without resorting to violence as they did. This past Sunday's OT reading in our lectionary was from Ex 32:7-14 - where Abraham got Moses to change his mind. Perhaps there is that kind of interplay within the triune God.

Tigger in ND


16 Sep 1998
13:46:44

Thanks to the two of you who have brought in Herzog. I enjoyed him as a teacher in the 80's. He does make some sense of this parable. But does he address Jesus's/Luke's interpretation/application? My problem is with "And I tell you...." I can imagine Jesus lifting up an example of forgiveness of debts or redistribution of wealth. But does Jesus want us to make friends by means of dishonest mammon? This sounds too much like inviting over rich people so that they will repay you. Friendship based on favors, backscratching? Is this philia or agape?

So I am still left struggling with how seriously to take this passage.

pHil


17 Sep 1998
00:08:38

I've found some help in the thought that the parable and the sayings which follow it were not originally together. Luke arranged these disconnected sayings of Jesus together because they have certain themes and words in common. The dishonest manager is congratulated not because of his honesty but because of his shrewdness. He saw his situation and took action to assure his future. This is an example to Christian disciples faced with the demands of Christ and the kingdom of God. The sayings that follow give us four separate applications of the story in the words of Jesus. 1."For the children of this age are more shrewd in dealing with their own generation than are the children of light." Christians ought to give as much thought to the business of God's kingdom as non-believers give to the affairs of the world. 2."Make friends for yourselves by means of dishonest wealth so that when it is gone, they may welcome you into the eternal homes." That is, use your money in ways that will yield eternal benefit. We do this by caring for the poor and outcast. Barclay quotes the Rabbis, "The rich care for the poor in this world, but the poor care for the rich in the world to come." A negative example of this (one who did not "make friends by means of dishonest wealth" is the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus -- next week's lection) 3."Whoever is faithful . . . etc." Faithfulness in use of material blessings (little/what belongs to another) determines spiritual blessings (much/the true riches/what is your own) we receive (I don't think that's quite right, maybe someone can help me in formulating this). 4."No slave can serve two masters . . ." A slave belongs totally to his master. He has no "free time" that is his own. Christianity cannot be a "part time" job. This can all be developed more, but it seems to be the direction I'm headed. Hope this helps. Rod in Pixley


17 Sep 1998
07:45:20

Anne in Providence, yes it is a joke I thank and HW in HI, and yes we don’t get it. Because we are the blunt of the joke I thank. 1. Who did Jesus come for--The poor and outcast (powerless) (Luke 4:18). To bring salvation to those who could not keep the law, because they were unclean or to poor to keep all the rules.. 2. We don’t get it because we are the rich and in power. Being from MS. I know what tenant farming and sharecroppers are about. Just one small step above slavery. And you know “da master” is always right. At the end of each year after you paid what you owed to “da master’s” store, and the rent on the land If you were lucky there was just enough money for new shoes for the family and one good drunk. “Da Master” lived in da big house and you lived in a shack and did all the work.(Dishonest wealth?) What a joyful thing it would be for the store clerk (the manager) to make a big mistake and only charge you half of what you owed for things that you paid two times to much for. Then when every one praised “Da Master” for how good and generous he was and what a great Christian he was...What could he do, fire the clerk and collect the rest of the debt, I don’t think so. Finely we got one over on “Da Master”.

But there is more Vs 9-12, which none of us will preach on because it does not fit our belief system. If we do we will try and make great theological symbols out of it. The idea here I think is that all wealth is dishonest. Be it buying something cheat from someone in great need to sell at a higher price or hoarding money in the face of the needs of others around us. I know, bleeding heart liberal. But who do we serve. What are we a slave to things or God. What a time for this, as a full time local pastor with salary of 9,000 I was offered a job this week for 48,000. Who is the fool. One of my churches spent over 30,000 cash this year on buildings but had a problem giving me a 1,900 raise. Who is the fool. I must ask if the gospel, the good news is for us the wealthiest, richest people in the world. Yes, I know Jesus had rich friends, but was it not in their act of giving to him and others that he blessed them. where they using their dishonest wealth to make friends with Jesus. Are we called to be faithful in the dishonest wealth we have. (If we see it as honest weath it is ours, but as dishonest weath then who does it belong to..May be God) Being faithful with that which is not ours anyway, will open the door to that which is really our own, our true riches of BEING (may be as part of GOD). If this is not true I AM THE FOOL. Ron In MS.

PS, SOMETHING GREAT I FOUND. I typed this in my word processor, and copy and pasted here, and it worked.


17 Sep 1998
13:59:54

Dear Friends, I appreciate so much the many views!

I want to offer Bultmann. He believed that the truth behind the parable was lost to antiquity, that the parable "obviously meant to say that one can learn from the slyness of a deceiver, but in what way?"

Herzog, incidentally, is right in there with Ron in MS, maintaining that this is a story of the weak. Ron, my friend, you are right on target. The issue, as always, is how to make it palatable enough to bring them back to church next week, but challenging enough to make them/us uncomfortable.... HW in HI


17 Sep 1998
14:27:59

I like the idea that the dishonest manager and the Children of Light are supposed to be alike in that both are mere stewards. Let's face it: we don't really own anything. What we have has been given to us by God--for a while. How we use it counts!!! Like the shrewd manager, we should be generous with what we have been entrusted with. Especially if we have wealth (which could be understood as a dishonest/unjust distribution) we are to give to those who don't have, to make friends with those who could otherwise accuse us in the world to come. F.S. in PA


17 Sep 1998
05:42:45

Dear Friends,

Perhaps all these interpretations are workable. Bultmann (you remember him!) said that the original point of this similitude has been lost in time: "obviously meant to say that one can learn from a deceiver, but in what way?" I am beginning to think of all the great contortions we go through to get ahead in life (think of all the effort used to minimize taxes, to put together a resume, to advertise deoderant, etc.) -- all these contortions are mind-benidng, but do we do the same for God? Or does God get the weaker less powerful press? Ought we not seek a path where such great effort is expended towards the reign of God?

HW in HI


17 Sep 1998
09:47:33

When I read this story, I feel a need to apply it to myself. As a pastor, I know there are many times I've squandered God's property, the gifts He has given me to pass on to others. So far, He has not called me in and revoked my authority as His pastor, but I deserve for Him to do so.

My gifts belong to Him, just as the gifts of those around me belong to Him. I know in my heart of heart that many in my congregation owe Him great debts and I know, as His pastor, it's my job to deal with those debts. I'm ususally pretty lax about calling them to accountability, though.

When I read this story and apply it to myself, I feel led to go to those who I know owe Him and great deal and offer them cancelation of the debt they owe. In Jesus' story, maybe the rich man wanted the debts cancelled or maybe he wanted them collected, it's hard for me to say. Still, I feel sure my Lord wants me to offer cancelatioin to those who owe him so much.

It might even make me a better pastor, more loved by some (less loved by others). Doing this might open up ways for me to receive from them cancelation of my own debts. Perhaps they might even be able to share with me out of the riches God has granted them, helping me to become a more in tune with the will of my Master.

I guess, when you get down to it, I don't have any grace of my own to share with others. It all belongs to God, anyway, and I've come by it through no effort of my own. However, unlike the rich man in this story, I am certain Jesus wants me to give it away, even if it doesn't belong to me and even if I don't understand why it never seems to run out.

God bless you,

sandy@minister.com


17 Sep 1998
11:07:20

I hope I am not throwing a monkey wrench into the discussion, but I'm coming from another angle. I usually try to see the one theme Jesus intended in his parables. It usually helps me to understand them better. In this case, I see this parable to be about discipleship and being prepare for the Kingdom of God that is coming. In the parable, the steward or manager knows he is being fired, so he prepares for that time when he will be on the street. Likewise, we are to prepare for when we will enter the kingdom of God and how do we do that? By being disciples of Christ and we need to do it NOW!

I'm sorry I came into the discussion so late, but all this came to me on this Thursday morning as I began waking up and convincing myself to get out of bed.

I also would like someone's opinion on a title for my sermon. I thought of it on Tuesday, but now I'm thinking it may have a second meaning. The title is "Don't Blow It Like Clinton Did." I am thinking of an alternate title which is "Don't Make the Same Mistake Clinton Made." Thank you.

Brandon in CA


17 Sep 1998
12:57:57

I had a question posted yesterday that has vanished. But it is worth it for me to try again. Since I gained a strong respect for Herzog's understanding of the parables in his classrooms in the early 80's, I was pleased when people brought up his comments on this page. They helped make some sense of it. I can hear Jesus in the themes of forgiveness and redistribution of wealth.

My problem is with the interpretation/application verses. Does Herzog discuss them in his book? I don't see a lot of consistency in them (with the parable or each other). Particularly v. 9. In what way are we to make friends with dishonest mammon? Is this like inviting the wealthy over for dinner since they can repay you? Make friends? Is this friendship then based on agape? Philia? Backscratching? And what eternal homes are we looking for?

It is this verse more than anything that makes it hard to take this passage seriously and tempts me to follow Trueblood's suggestion.

pHil


17 Sep 1998
15:05:01

This parable is one of a series of many parables. Parables that illustrate what the kingdom of God is like.

From H.N. Wendt of CrossWays, Intl.'s book , The Parables of Jesus, he points out "Jesus made use of unsavory characters in several other parables: the unjust judge, the neighbor who does not want to be bothered in the night, and the man who pockets someone else's treasure by buying his field. In three of those four cases, Jesus uses the rabbinic principle of "from light to heavy," which means generally, "How much more?" That is, if this widow got what she wanted from this kind of judge (18:1-9), how much more would you get from God? If this man got bread in the night from this neighbor (11:5-7), how much more would you get from God? If this dishonest steward solved his problem by relying on the mercy of his master to solve his crisis, how much more will God help you in your crisis when you trust His mercy?

"The unjust manager is praised for his wisdom in knowing where his salvation lay, not for his dishonesty.

"The entire parable offers insight into the nature of God, into the crises that the kingdom brings to the sinner, and into the only hope for humanity's salvation. It's message can be summarized as follows:

"God (the master) is a God of judgment and mercy. Because of his evil, man (the manager) is caught in the crisis of the coming of the kingdom. Excuses will avail the manager nothing. This clever rascal was wise enough to place his total trust in the quality of mercy experienced at the beginning of the story (the master could have jailed him, but fired him instead). That trust was vindicated.

"Disciples need the same kind of wisdom. Their only option is to entrust everything to the unfailing mercy of their generous Heavenly Master who, they can be confident, will accept to pay the price for their salvation.

I would also toss in that Jesus was pretty shrewd himself in dealing with the Pharisees, he stood up to them without resorting to violence as they did. This past Sunday's OT reading in our lectionary was from Ex 32:7-14 - where Abraham got Moses to change his mind. Perhaps there is that kind of interplay within the triune God.

Tigger in ND


17 Sep 1998
16:55:03

Consider the ice cream vendor who got caught in a monumental traffic jam on a hot, humid afternoon. He finally got out of his truck, went to the back and got himself a cold ice cream bar. As he munched, he realized that in the car idling behind him four young children were watching his every bit. On impulse he once more opened the back of his delivery truck and got out ice cream for those children. Of course, in moments he was surrounded by a crowd of youngsters, as refugees from the other stalled vehicles mobbed him. By the time traffic began to move again, the ice cream man had given away four boxes of ice cream bars, which he had already decided to pay for himself. When he returned to the factory, he was called into the manager's office. But instead of being fired, the manager smiled and told him it was the best public relations they had received in years. Grateful parents had been calling in all afternoon to praise the kindness of the man who had changed a frustrating situation into a moment of delight. Jeff in NJ


17 Sep 1998
19:48:01

To pHil & others,

I am pouring through Herzog to find your answer - re: interpretation of v.9-ff.

Herzog offers one possibility that the parable ends with v 9 (rest from Luke) and that v 9 is a rhetorical question "Shall I tell you, make friends for yourselves....?" That rhetorical question would be answered in the negative: of course not. Herzog seems to consider v8b-13 to be the sayings attached to the parable. He does quote quite a few authorities on these verses, but the only Herzog thoughts are above.

Thank you for taking time to ask - the thought that it is a neg. rhetorical question that Jesus asks brings the humor aspect to bear.

I plan to avoid Clinton for the most part. But the words of one parishioner's 7 year old ring in my mind. Watching the whole debacle on TV, she turned and asked her parents, "Can I lie now?" No, the sad man was deperate. Should we say, "make excuses for yourself....?"

Hw in HI


17 Sep 1998
21:09:50

The best things I have ever read on this Parable of the Unjust Steward are in the late Helmut Thielicke's book "The Waiting Father" and in Robert Capon's book "The Parables of Grace" (1988, Eerdmans). Thielicke's views are similar to Harry Wendt's— the "how much more" variety. I preached on this text back in the 1980's using Thielicke's ideas. One quote I used was from St. Jerome circa 400 A.D. He wrote about his friend Principia: "She preferred to store her money in the stomachs of the needy rather than hide it in a purse." Re Capon's book, I can't recommend it too highly. He compares this parable to the one about the Unforgiving Servant. In this case, absolving debt (which includes forgiving) comes from the bottom up rather than from the top down. The Steward is freed by his firing (death) to do things he wouldn't have thought of, i.e., to forget about the laws of respectable bookkeeping. For Capon, the Unjust (preferable to the word Dishonest) Steward is a Christ-figure. He's a crook, like Jesus, bypassing law. He's a loser, opting for winning by losing. We are the debtors he has forgiven. "Lucky for us," says Capon, "that we don't have to deal with a JUST steward." Jim from B.C.


17 Sep 1998
21:26:41

Wow -- how interesting that the parable sends us in so many directions at once. Like Brandon in Calif., I hear this parable as a message about urgency and the reign of God. The dishonest steward, once fired, was given a opportunity to juggle the books. (the "final accounting) Maybe this is the humor -- what owner would fire an accountant who embezzled then tell him/her to balance the books before turning them over? One of my resources (perhaps Word and Witness) spoke of this as the window of grace through which the manager was shrewd enough to slip. Could it be that the age in which we live is the "window of grace" in which we are given the opportunity (as were those who heard Jesus' teaching first hand) to repent.

The question is whether we will be wise (or shrewd) enough to make good use of the window of grace.

Admittedly, this is a new way for me to hear this parable. Right now, I think it makes sense. I may not think so by noon on Sunday. I am struck, however, by how lackadaisical we are about the gospel. We are too busy, too stressed, too tired, too something to respond just now. We will do it when we get around to it, when the kids are grown, when the business is in better shape, etc.

Jesus was clear that the time for response is now. What would happen if we (the church) recovered our sense of urgency??

Thanks for stimulating my thinking. I welcome your response.

Levfish


17 Sep 1998
22:16:36

I really like the idea of the window of grace. Thank you. Ron in MS


17 Sep 1998
22:42:34

Sermon title "Don't Blow It Like Clinton Did." I certainly hope you are offering that in jest. If not, you need to reevaluate the place of the pulpit. For the sake of Christianity, please do not disgrace the pulpit with that type of sleazy sermon title. Matthew in Ohio.


17 Sep 1998
22:43:41

Sermon title "Don't Blow It Like Clinton Did." I certainly hope you are offering that in jest. If not, you need to reevaluate the integrity of the pulpit and your responsibility to that integrity. For the sake of Christianity, please do not disgrace the pulpit with that type of sleazy sermon title. Matthew in Ohio.


18 Sep 1998
01:03:36

Friends, there ought to be another section to this site labelled "sermons" and then AFTER a particular Sunday, anyone could post their sermons. It'd take up too much space here, but I would love to see how all this exegetical work will be woven into sermons that are going to be preached to a congregation. One thing that has intrigued me is that 1) this is a tough parable to digest even on the surface--one that has listeners saying "What did he say?" 2) Add to it that our intrepretations seem almost as complex. Certainly, our life experiences add to our intrepretation, but to date, we have the rich man as (A)a cotton lord, (B) a corrupt power person--because of wealth, he held all the power---and (C) someone who deserved to be cheated--let's face it, Luke records the story by saying the dishonest manager cheated his owner, not for grace, not to help the debtors (who had received their goods and owed the money) but did this to save his own skin. Put that ontop of the fact that he was accused and presents no defense against the accusation that he had been cheating his rich employer all along. So, we have the dishonest manager as (A) a person helping poor (the customers), and (B) a person who is a Christlilke figure. How does one weave this into a sermon that people can follow? This is complicated stuff. I am not being critical, but I have thought this for a long time. It would be enlightening to see our finished sermons, Don't even know if the techno-talk is available. STAN


18 Sep 1998
05:31:36

Does anyone know the story (probably apocryphal) about Martin Luther preparing for a sermon. He'd had a busy week -- three weddings and a funeral, you know -- and had not had time to properly prepare. All week, he kept saying to himself "the Lord will provide." Finally, on Friday night, he sat down, and waited for the Lord to provide. Nothing. Saturday morning, he waited again. Nothing. Saturday evening, the same thing. Sunday morning, on the way to church, he prayed for God to hear him. Sunday morning, as service began, he prayed for God to hear his prayer. He stepped into the pulpit. He prayed. Finally, he heard God's voice: "Martin Luther, thou art lazy." Does anyone know if this is true, or how the story really goes? This is all from my feeble memory.

I'm also looking for a prayer/poem that includes "We pray for children with dirty faces . . ." It speaks of our children -- the loved, the protected, the cared for -- and all the other children of the world who aren't.

Thanks for your help.

RevJan


18 Sep 1998
05:32:26

For RevJan:

We pray for the children who put chocolate fingers on everything, who love to be tickled, who stomp in puddles and ruin new pants, who eat candy before supper and who can never find their shoes in the morning.

And we also pray for those who stare at photographers from behind barbed wire, who have never bound down the street in a new pair of shoes, who never played "one potato, two potatoes," and who are born in places that we would not be caught dead in and they will be.

We pray for the children who give us sticky kisses and fistfuls of dandelions, who sleeps with their dog and who bury their goldfish, who hug us so tightly and who forget their lunch money, who squeeze toothpaste all over the sink, who watch their fathers shave, and who slurp their soap.

And we pray for those who will never get dessert, who have no favorite blanket to drag around behind them, who watch their fathers suffer, who cannot find any bread to steal, who do not have any rooms to clean up, whose pictures are on milk cartons instead of on dressers, and whose monsters are real.

We pray for the children who spend all their allowance by Tuesday, who pick at their food, who love ghost stories, who shove their dirty clothes under the bed and never rinse the bathtub, who love visits from the Tooth Fairy, even after they find out who it really is, who do not like to be kissed in front of the school bus, and who squirm during services.

And we also pray for those children whose nightmares occure in the daytime, who will eat anything, who have never seen a dentist, who are not spoiled by anyone, who go to bed hungry and wake up hungry, who live and move and have no address. We pray for those children who like to be carried and for those children who have to be carried. for those who give up and for those who never give up, for those who will grab the hand of anyone kind enough to offer it and for those who find no hand to grab.

For all these children, we pray today, for they are all so precious.

Ina J. Hughs

Shalom Sister,

Nail-Bender in NC


18 Sep 1998
06:05:30

To STAN:

Yes, your "Techno-Talk" can be made available. The Lord works in mysterious ways: Just this past week DPS has been offered a switch-over to a new account which will give us 2.5 times the disk space as well as the bandwidth (+ faster download times) for only 1.5 times the cost of the old account. And that at a time when DPS was just reaching its ceiling! Praise God!

With the additional space and bandwidth, I can easily arrange for the possibility of sermons (or sermon extracts) to be posted after the lectionary discussion (or before--I really cannot keep anybody from posting beforehand). I'll place a hyperlink at the bottom of each week's scripture links on the menu bar to the left--starting this week.

Please prayerfully consider supporting DPS. Whenever I face another financial "step-up" commitment because DPS grows out of bounds, I get a little nervous (my charge is a small rural church who, while graciously allowing me to place DPS under the umbrella of the church's ministry for non-profit status, also made clear that our budget cannot support DPS expenses--although many individuals from Avon Zion UMC have been giving support).

Blessings . . . Frank Schaefer, DPS Director/Developer


18 Sep 1998
09:34:49

I think the whole message is about faithfulness (v 11). And to me it seems OK to refer to the unfaithfulness of one who is trusted, such as the President.

Maybe to make the message apply to us, refer to the unfaithfulness of the church to proclaim the message of right living, with the result that society is so willing to accept unfaithful behavior from a leader like the President.

Clare in Iowa


18 Sep 1998
11:42:43

Like Brandon in CA I see the parable as being about being prepared. The dishonest manager knew what was coming so he made plans for his future. He was being shrewd. Today many people plan for their futures with IRA's, pension plans, retirement programs, 401(k). Those that do this when they are young are being shrewd with their money. Many of us however don't start planning until its too late. We come up with all kinds of excuses. In our 20's we think its too early, in our 30's we know it's a good idea, but there are bills to pay, in our 40's the money just doesn't go that far, in our 50's we know we should have done it 10-15 years ago. The point is, how are we really planning for the inevitable, death. As Jesus says, "Lay up for yourselves treasure in heaven". Are we really prepared. Sermon title, "God's retirement program".

Colemine in KS


18 Sep 1998
12:59:23

Wow! What a great array of meditations on this text. I have to agree with those who do not see this as a stewardship text, although it could be pulled that way. There is a greater overview that is easily missed, and I agree with Barclay's four "lessons" idea. These lessons all tend to focus on behavior and lead me to conclude that the common theme between them is Christian integrity. 1)As children of light, we do need to know and learn to use the power of that light and how to apply its principles here and now. Grace, mercy and love are the tools by which we should live. Our eagerness to use them and to work for a deepening of our spirituality should at least equal the enthusiasm the shrewd manager had for securing his future. 2)By following those principles of light, we will naturally assist those around us who are weak and needy. Building relationships - both with God and with others - is vital. 3)Our faithfulness (integrity) in the things of this world is essential. How will we ever enjoy or benefit from spiritual 'wealth' if we are careless with it? 4)We must belong exclusively to God. We can't sit on the fence, be Christian part-time or be 'lukewarm.' As Christians, these behaviors point to the depth of our commitment and knowledge of God. How can we be less than consistently, continuously and completely filled with this kind of integrity and call ourselve children of light? Yes, this speaks of forgiveness, service and stewardship in the manner that they also are behaviors suitable for the Christian. But they are just a piece of a large puzzle. I'm certain there's a deeper or broader perspective than the one I took. Anyway, thanks for stretching my brain and my heart with all your words of wisdom! Kathie in IN.


18 Sep 1998
13:29:40

Nail-bender--thank you! thank you!

RevJan--there is a song by the singer Shelia Walsh called (I think) "Angels with Dirty Faces"--talking about all of us as God's children. I think the album it is on is called "Shadowlands."


18 Sep 1998
15:58:00

Thanks for all the help. I am a new fan of DPS. I also was having problems with these versese and reading these have given me some help by both giving me some new insights and reminding me of some past learning about these verses. Thanks again!!! Nancy in NE


18 Sep 1998
16:14:22

Fred Craddock points out that we use great energy and ingenuity in getting what we want as the children of darkness. Why do we use so little of those things in our work as the children of light? Craddock also points out that this may have something to do with how we deal with adversity, and the use we make of whatever opportunities (small, large, financial or otherwise). Do we act quickly. or do we just wait to see what happens?

If you want totalk about this as it applies to the church, a good resource would be Bill Easum's book, Sacred Cows Make Gourmet Burgers, a book that is even better than its title suggests.

One final thought-how creative, how innovative, how enterpreneurial are we in our leadership positions in the church. I would much rather take no chances- but the way I read this parable, God says to us-Go for it or go home!

RevGilmer P.S. Thanks for all the good ideas!


18 Sep 1998
16:41:09

I am not sure if this observation makes much difference to the interpretation of the parable but it strikes me that the Manager's reputation was not initially one of being dishonest. The parable begins by saying the manager was charged with wasting or squandering the owners wealth. Exactly how he wasted is unclear. He may very well have been dishonest in this process. On the other hand, it is possible he was simply a crummy manager, incompetent to do the job. It is when he is up against the wall, and has already been told his job is history, the steward begins his clever skeme and quickly offers the debtors drastic reductions in their debt load at the owner's expense, therebye creating some indebtedness to himself. (There were strings attached.)

A second thought about this story is that it calls us to action. It isn't good enough as Christians to be complacent about our faith and our eternal rewards. We are to use the gifts and knowledge we have wisely as disciples of Christ.

Willimon put it this way in Pulpit Resource, "Through the ages, there have been those who have accused the Christian faith of promoting passivity -- 'Pie-in-the-sky by-andby.' Because we believe that God is in charge of the future, why should we busy ourselves today/ Of course, this is a silly caricature of the gospel. In reality, things are just the opposite. Because we know that the future is in God's hands, because we are confident that God is working to reconcile the world to himself, we are filled with boldness. We can move out into the future with great confidence and vitality, free to act in outrageously creative ways, because we are free from anxiety about how it ends." p.50

Thanks for all of your input. I am sure we all feel like Desperate Preachers this week.

David H. in Saskatoon


18 Sep 1998
17:26:19

It's Friday afternoon, the long week is winding down, and my brain is still being boggled by this text. Thanks, Anne and others, for pointing out the humor in this passage. I think I have my title, which will be "Divine Mimickry." The manager feels free to remit the debts of those who owe his master only because he anticipates that the master will not reverse his actions. After all, the happy (former) debtors are celebrating their sudden good fortune and praising the master's magnanimity. It would be foolish for the master to squander this treasury of goodwill by insisting that the debtors now pay in full. The manager, dishonest and cunning as he may be, nevertheless has sized his master up. He acts on an assumption that the master will prove to be gracious. What he doesn't expect, perhaps, is that the master proves to be as gracious to him as he does to the debtors. Surely this is a bit of holy hilarity! The life of every disciple is lived out as an "imitation of Christ." Most of that divine mimickry is pretty pathetic. We are like children playing in adult clothing, with the long sleeves flopping over our hands, tripping about in shoes too big for our feet. Yet to the extent that we can mimic even the slightest bit of God's great grace, we will be commended as the manager was. Grace and peace, dear friends! Bill in SoMD


19 Sep 1998
09:03:45

Nail-Bender -- thanks again! You've saved my Teacher Dedication Service!

Bill in SoMD -- you said succinctly what it took Bailey about 12-15 pages in Poet & Peasant to exegete! For those of you who don't know this book, it's great. Intreprets the parables through Oriental eyes, drawing on ancient and modern-day customs of the Middle East. He's done a lot of research, and has lived in the area for many, many years. It's worth it trying to get a copy. Sorry I didn't bring it up before, but I just found my copy last night at 11:00, and almost finished reading it this morning at breakfast. Anyway, he treats only the first 8 verses of our passage. His intrepretation, as Bill says is that it is a parable about grace.

Grace, and peace to all

RevJan


19 Sep 1998
09:04:58

Please excuse this post if it is out of place. I am new to DPS (just found it a week ago) and was wanting to print out certain posts but not the whole forum. Is there anuy way I can do that without printing the whole 32 page forum for this week. I am particularly interested in the poem submitted by NailBender Thx DDT in NC


19 Sep 1998
09:14:56

Windows 95: Point with your mouse pointer at the beginning of the poem, click the left mouse button and keep it down while moving it to the end of the document. Release the mouse button, click on "Edit" in your browser's toolbar then on "copy." From here you need to open your word processing program and paste the document into it. If your browser doesn't have a Edit and Copy function, press down ctrl and C on your keyboard after highlighting the text you want to copy.

Blessings . . .Frank


19 Sep 1998
12:08:25

We have just survived a dishonest chair of trustees who was skimming funds off the top. There was no way I wanted to preach that the dishonest man was being blest for his dishonesty. Our head of trustees had an immense amount of power, ran everything including the last pastor out of town. He never comes to church. He is a master of intimidation, which he told me while alone with me in his car running an errand with him. His next sentence was that he had a gun, always carried a gun. I told him that I wasn't afraid, that God protects me, that God sees all and knows all. I also told him that Jesus loves him and died for him on the cross. He told me he had a very special relationship with God. By the grace of God, he resigned all positions. I am in prayer for him and in dialog with him. But I do not see God rewarding him for his shrudness and lies. I believe he needs to repent and ask for forgiveness and come into relationship with Jesus. This is my prayer for him. In my prayers all week to God, I prayed, show me how to preach this message Lord. Today I received a word, "Grace and touch". We who know the Lord have received the "grace" and touch others with His grace. For the first time, I understood what you all were saying early on: 1. the owner could have thrown the dishonest manager into jail, but showed grace by dismissing him instead. 2. Having received grace, the manager touches others--forgiving 1/2 the debt or so. 3. Grace and touch 4. I have received God's grace and I am forgiven 5. I touch others with that grace, even the one who stole from these good church people. The ending sentence is directed to our dishonest parishoner: You cannot serve God and wealth. He still needs to learn it, but unfortunatly, won't be here. I have decided to continue my series on "Pray the Price", this will be our third week focused on praying for the unchurched. LS


19 Sep 1998
14:21:07

Lk 16:1-9 is very much like the Gospel of Thomas 98 The Kingdom of heaven is like a man who wished to assassinate a noble. He drew his sword at home, and struck it against the wall, to test whether his hand were strong enough. Then he went out and killed the noble. Both Lk 16:1-9 and Thomas 98 have persons who act very quickly to change the future. The point may be that the children of light miss the the bus that Spike Lee's film Get on the Bus." lets us ride. The evil or dishonest persons sees a goal and acted. Jesus like the fact that action was at hand. The church and we Christions ask for a map when we are asked to move by faith and get on the bus today for much is lost by the faint of heart. The old saying a stitch in time saves nine.or strike while the iron is hot may be a wise word for the children of light who see the quick action of the children of darkness. Lynn R.


19 Sep 1998
22:19:02

To pianoman: Sorry, but I don't think that I'm just "adapting" stewardship into this text. It seems pretty clear that this is about dishonest in stewardship. It's just that stewardship, as I see it, is a whole lot more than pledge drives. It's about being honest through and through with all God's blessings -- time, talents, money, love, etc. This, to me, is a parable about a man who seems to come out on top, but in actuality, has to live his life deceptively in order to survive, and therefore doesn't come out on top. Had he been honest from the start, he never would have had to resort to deception to keep his job.

RevJan: Thank you! I don't know if anyone will find that Luther story, but it made my day!

Mark


19 Sep 1998
22:30:19

Hi all! Grace and peace to you. Let's remember that this is a parable and not get mired in the details. I think this is another radical parable about the kingdom, using another "rogue" type, a dishonest manager (like the prodigal son, unclean Samaritan--not role models). The dishonest manager is faced with a crisis that calls him to act. He does so shrewdly, taking away his commission so that these "friends" will welcome him when he's out on the street and hungry. The manager says later, "Hey that was pretty smart" and don't forget he also says, "Don't let the door hit you on the way out."

The quick thinking/actions/wisdom of the dishonest manager are what we as the Church should be using in the crisis with which we are faced: Jesus has come into the world and presented us with the Kingdom. What do we do now? What choices do we make to insure our future in it? In order to bring God's love into the world, Jesus underwent crucifixion. That presents a crisis for us in that we have to make fast decisions in and about our lives, as the manager did. I think the biggest sin in the church is apathy. Yuck. It surrounds me like a plague.

I like the sting of the parable because, once again, Jesus isn't vindictive about folks who are fallen. He bears the sins of the world, rather than bearing down on the sinners. By that, we know the experience of God's love.

The Holy Spirit gives us this passage just at the right time. Coincidence? We have a crisis in the U.S. It requires shrewd thinking and fast words and actions. If we are to "be like Jesus," the church needs to give a cup of water, gently lend a guiding hand, be the voice of God's love. Especially now! NOT PRESENT A HOLY JUDGMENT! We are to use this opportunity (every opportunity) to reveal God's love, yes, even to Bill Clinton.

We are to provoke the world to see God's love by what we do and say. This is how to be faithful. We don't have to be a missionary to Cambodia, be Mother Theresa, or the Pope; there are many many ways to reveal God's love to others. But judging/condeming people isn't one of them. That's not all that shrewd in the Kingdom.

Mindy, transplanted in NC


19 Sep 1998
22:30:57

A risque parable that teases us with the hope that living contrary to this world's common sense will pay off in the long run. Giving and forgiving, turning the other cheek and cancelling obligations, make no sense here but all the sense in the world, under the aegis of God.


19 Sep 1998
22:34:35

Many thanks for the thoughtful insights. I am glad to see I'm not the only one who had some trouble with this, but I did get help from some of the comments here. My focus for this week is False Gods, which discussion leads us back to the ONE TRUE GOD.Again, many thanks for the help. Janet / NY


20 Sep 1998
04:38:23

It's very late in California. I've read everyone's comments. Thank you for the inspiration, judgment, despair, prayer, grace, and disgust. I guess all of that is what life is. Perhaps that may be how Jesus is able to use those of us who are dishonest with what has been entrusted to us in ways that bring joy and forgiveness of debts to others. May Christ continue to do so, whether I be BC in Washington or LT-W in California.


24 Sep 1998
19:49:20

This is a test