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Dear Friends In Christ.... I don't know about the rest of you, but I find it very difficult to cross the bridge from the text to things people can identify with. Take this text for example...I have people who have heard it so many times that they ignore it, or pass it off as "Billy Graham" material. What in your estimation are some contemporary trends, axioms, etc. that can be used to bridge the gap in this text? Help!!! Humble in Ks.


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Isn't anyone out there going to respond to my question? Humble in Ks.


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"Billy Graham material" (!) He keeps harping on that Jesus fellow, doesn't he? ;-) I guess that would make it kinda Gospel-ish then, eh? :-)

I'm thinking of calling my sermon "Nick at Nite," though I have a nagging certainty that one has probably been used 100s of times before in the last decade or so. Perhaps not at my congregation, however.

Dave K. in Ohio <><


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Something that catches my eye is this Spirit business. Do only the charismatic and Pentecostal churches have the Spirit? I think a bridge to the present is that the mainline church today needs born again. The mainline church has become in too many cases a religious institution much like the religious establishment of Jesus' time. We are busy at the work of maintaining the status quo and concentrating on keeping the doors open of dying churches. We have become ingroan in our ways. We are like contented cows. We know we need to change and that the Spirit would change us. But where the Spirit flows, we don't have control and power. No, none of us likes change. We are all creatures of habit. Yet, life forces change upon us. Will the church change or will it die? My denomination just stopped publication of its national magazine. I just received the sad news this weekend that we are now closing several care facilities that we own due to finances or who knows. We don't have the clergy to fill pulpits and no big amount coming in from the seminaries. Do we need to be born again? Do we need to capture the Spirit Jesus has for us? YES!!! PH in OH


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Michelle, thought you'd like to know that I did use your thoughts on last week's Gospel nearly verbatim ... I reordered your paragraphs, but otherwise left them just as you wrote them.

The URL for the sermon is ... http://www.stfrancis-ks.org/subpages/asermons/lent-1-a-rcl-2002.htm

Blessings, Eric in KS


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I'm kind of struck by, "Are you a teacher of Israel and you don't know these things?" There's lots of stuff we don't know, and yet we think we have a hold on all of it - that we're somehow privvy to all the answers. Are we truly open to the movement of the Spirit and the Creator? My daughter and I listened to "Writer's Almanac" the other day and Garrison Keillor was recounting Galileo's story - how there was such resistance to his ideas, that he was forced to recant them under threat of torture on the rack. He recanted, and under his breath, says, "but it (the earth) still moves." Aren't we in the church sometimes like those who persecuted Galileo for his new insight?

The rub for me, however, is that what makes an insight "true" is neither its novelty nor its historical acceptance.

It would seem that for people to be born again, who've already had the "Billy Graham" experience of accepting Christ as their Lord and Savior, a maturing Christian would be continually reborn in the Spirit.

Also, my personal favorite verse is 17 - how unlike some Christian leaders we know to NOT condemn the world, but to do something besides gripe and groan to save it. I've already questioned whether we're open to the Creator and Spirit; Are we truly open to the grace of the Savior? My hunch is that we could all do better.

Early ponderings - missed y'all last week; my husband preached!

Sally in GA


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I could have put that more positively:

Perhaps we all fall into the lure of so desperately wanting to be Spirit-led, rather than world-led, that we end up condemning the world rather than presenting Christ, to save it.

Sally in GA


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"The Wilderness Serpent and the Son of Man"...powerful stuff when the metaphor of the serpent represents not only death but ressurection! The death-resurrection dynamics are grounded in the 'baptism from above' as well as in the birthing processes of leaping from the dependency, within the womb, fed by the umblical cord-the supply line of life-which must be severed or cut off in the birthing event in order for a higher form of independency to emerge. This existential process continues throughout life-cycles, and rituals forging this out, in our Being/Becoming journey. (PaideiaSCO reflections on application of Henderson and Oakes' "The Wisdom of the Serpent" when applied to this scripture)


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In my former life as a non Christian People were making bets that I would not live to my 18th birthday. I was mean and would fight at the drop of a hat. But Jesus changed all that. when I was born again and my life completely changed. It didn't happen in church but on a damp sidewalk with me lying in my own vomit a begging God to let me die because no one cared. That night a Hawaiian policeman and a military ploiceman both told me they cared. Though my life was changed that night I still had a lot of growing to do. Just as natural birth produces a baby that has to be taken care of so does the babe in Christ who must first be fed with milk and not meat The New bith is not an end but a beginning of a whole new growth experience. This growth never comes to an end untill we reach the other side. One of the problems with the church today is that there are many who have never had an experience with the living Christ.

Harold in Alabama


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Some random ramblings . . .

Nicodemus coming by night isn't a coming at the end of the day, but a coming at the beginning of the day, as per the Jewish keeping of time: we begin, as did the creation, in darkness and God brings forth light! Nicodemus starts this new day by seeking out Jesus!

In computer terms, it is almost as if Jesus tells Nicodemus that he has to "reboot" -- that he can't run his program any more because there are too many error messages flashing in his life.

When I was a country pastor trying to get directions to a farm that I had never been to before, if the directions were complicated, the directions sometimes began with "you can't get there from here." It was their way of saying that starting from a different place would make the trip easier. Sometimes the best spiritual advice is like that -- in order to get to life in the kingdom/reign of God, we have to start from a new place, a reborn place in our lives; and that we can't get there (to the kingdom) from here (our life of sin apart from God). Nicodemus has trouble thinking that you can start from a new place, that you can't take along all the history and baggage of the past -- "how can these things be?" (vs. 9)

It is Sunday night, so I don't know yet where I am going with any of this yet . . .

OLAS


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This passage is packed with so many familiar expressions that have been used in so many different context, it is hard to find a handle on the reading. 'Born again' has been co-opted into such a 'secret code word' in certain areas of American Christianity that it has taken on a rather distasteful sound in my ear. Even in the readings final verse, we encounter the word 'saved' which, like 'born again', has lost a lot of meaning in my life because of how the word has been used (and, in my humble opinion, misused). Personally, I believe I am 'saved', even 'born again'... but lots of people seem to feel, and seem pleased to tell me, that it might not be the case!

That being said, it makes me want to preach this passage this week because I need to think about the meanings of such phrases. 'Born again' and 'saved' should mean more than "Do you subscribe to my particular belief?" or "Are you 'saved' in the way that I understand 'saved' means... which is, in my mind, the only way one can be 'saved' because if you aren't, then I'll explain why your heading to hell?". At least, I hope there is more here than that!

One final note, I find it ironic that this particular John passage, which is used by some as justification to exclude all other faiths before God, stands juxtaposed in the Lectionary to the very Genesis passage that all Muslims, Jews and Christians hold in such high regard as our common legecy- the call of Abram.

TB in MN


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Just a quick thought! Today, Spirituality is a desire. To me it should be Holy Spirit driven. So far not much. Nancy-WI

Thanks for the dog tale, and the relating of how what the tempter ask was ok just the wrong time. Both preached well.


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Sally in GA, you really spoke to me when you lifted up the line regarding condemnation. My denomination (PCUSA) is in the process of yet another heated debate surrounding homosexuality. Our Presbytery will be voting on the new ammendment next month,and so it is a lively topic of conversation within our congregation. I am greatly distress by the amount of condemnation I am hearing. I don't know where all this will lead, but I think you've got my wheels turning.

Thanks,

JRinBigD


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TN in MB thank you for your words, it is interesting to have the two scriptures lectionarially connected. In January I preached about what you have been speaking about, that from our different viewpoints, different vantage points we often spiritually "spit" upon each other furthering a tearing down of that which we are to be building up. Make use of these scriptures and preach it. I love those verses - 16 and 17! Setting 17 with Abram's story opens the door to the Word of God in a very interesting direction to preach. JJ in Ontario.


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I meant to say, that you seem to be speaking about, JJ in Ont.


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To Humlbe in Ks, When people skim over this text thinking they know what it says and means, they are like Nicodemus who goes to see Jesus but seems to think he already has the answers, and has trouble hearing what Jesus has to say to him. The John 3:16 thing can really make people shut down, or focus on just that verse and miss the richness of the other parts of this passage. I will be talking about not putting God in a box but rather about being open to all that the Spirit may reveal as it blows where it will. Also I love the juxtaposition of Nicodemus' confusion in this meeting with Jesus and the fact that he shows up after the cruxifiction to help prepare Jesus' body for burial - he moved from the night to the dawn, from not seeing to seeing. Good stuff. LGB


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PH in OHIO AMEN!!! I agree!!! Do the Assemblies of God have the key to the spiritual gifts? NO John 15 says that we all that are 'saved and Born aborn' ( to use the one contirbuter's saying they are archaic) which they are not! says in all All things are accessible to us because of Christ, we are not emplyees but friends of God! I am in a Mainline denomination (one that some call LIBERAL-i dont like that word LIBERAL does not mean what people think it does) I recently had an aldersgate experience, the gifts of the holy spirit are there for all- not just pentecostals!!! The Holy Spirit has strengthened my mind I see things in the scripture so much differently now! even after years of the Church, Bible Study, Sunday School Etc... We as the CHURCH all of us need to really get on our knees, and repent, remember, and know with the confidence of God's Children who we really are and Just what the cross means! IF that sounds Billy Grahamish...oh well...just typing here what God is giving me....And My denomination is having trouble filling pulpits too...Where have all the seminarians gone??? ( to the Cementary...LOL) Maybe the Church needs to look not in seminary for pastors, preachers....Ladypreacher in OH and (seminary student)


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Dabbling in the Spirit realm can be more dangerous than snake-handling. That's what we found out...

One day our sleepy little retiring/dying mainline church had the bright idea of reaching out to a few gay and lesbian neighbors, offering them the same stale Bread of Heaven and unfermented Cup of Salvation that had been our staple meal for lo these many generations. Well, it seems that that day there was some potent new wine in themthere old wineskins. Nobody quite knows where it came from, nor how it got there. But the truth is that some of those strangers (plus a few of the old-timers) got a little tipsy on the holy meal. In fact, they got so giddy at what seemed to them to be good news that they came back for more and brought their friends with them. Then their friends brought their friends, and so on...

Well, all h-- broke loose like a West Texas wind storm when She came blowing in the door that day. Some folks said it was time to batten down the hatches and sweep out the stuff that blew in. Others said that a sweet sweet spirit was filling up the place and began to wonder where it might be carrying us.

We have seen the Lord, high and lifted up, and the Spirit's skirt filled the temple. And we cried, "Glory! Wherever you're going, let us come with you!"

This is the good news of a church that has been born again from above, full of new life -- all because they believed the one who said: "God did not send the Son to condemn the world, but rather that, through him, the world might be saved."

Glory to God! +Reborn Rev


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Dabbling in the Spirit realm can be more dangerous than snake-handling. That's what we found out...

One day our sleepy little retiring/dying mainline church had the bright idea of reaching out to a few gay and lesbian neighbors, offering them the same stale Bread of Heaven and unfermented Cup of Salvation that had been our staple meal for lo these many generations. Well, it seems that that day there was some potent new wine in themthere old wineskins. Nobody quite knows where it came from, nor how it got there. But the truth is that some of those strangers (plus a few of the old-timers) got a little tipsy on the holy meal. In fact, they got so giddy at what seemed to them to be good news that they came back for more and brought their friends with them. Then their friends brought their friends, and so on...

Well, all h-- broke loose like a West Texas wind storm when She came blowing in the door that day. Some folks said it was time to batten down the hatches and sweep out the stuff that blew in. Others said that a sweet sweet spirit was filling up the place and began to wonder where it might be carrying us.

We have seen the Lord, high and lifted up, and the Spirit's skirt filled the temple. And we cried, "Glory! Wherever you're going, let us come with you!"

This is the good news of a church that has been born again from above, full of new life -- all because they believed the one who said: "God did not send the Son to condemn the world, but rather that, through him, the world might be saved."

Glory to God! +Reborn Rev


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Humble in KS... if we don't hear the word anew because the text seems too familiar, then perhaps we can pick one piece of it and not worry about the whole - the sermon may be a flower, and not necessarily the whole garden. Here's one "small" flower from this passage - universal salvation - as found in vss 16 and 17. Do we trust it, believe it...how does it shape our view of life and people - of terrorists, our spouses, teenagers, and the 3000 plus innocent Afghan men, women, and children who had nothing to do with Sept. 11th who our war machine has killed looking for those few snakes in caves. Are they save-able and saved? Are you and I? Just rambling, not ranting. - Humbled in CT.


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My homiletics prof said that every sermon needs to be preached to the preacher first before it gets preached to the congregation. This is what I'm preaching to me so far.

Nicodemus seems to be looking for the "handle", the way to control what Jesus is saying. He is trying to fit the transcendence of God into his all-too-human and prosaic world. Jesus is trying to crack open the box Nicodemus is in and let the infinite possibility of the Holy Spirit lift him to a new understanding of God's "unfailing love", which Nicodemus has studied in the Scriptures for so long yet to seemingly little effect. Powerful stuff. Adding that to the fact that I'm candidating for my first pastorate with this sermon on Sunday and I think I'm getting a very compelling message from God.

Even if you're not involved in a life-defining moment the lesson Jesus is trying to teach Nicidemus and us is that we can't understand or control the grace God lavishes upon us by His Spirit. We simply must experience it and live in the reality of it. This brings the other lectionary selections alongside of Nicodemus' story for me. Abraham's faith in God. The Psalmist's assertion of God's faithful protection and provision. Paul drawing the point to a fine resolution that "faith is the key". Jesus pressing Nicodemus to leap from his comfortable theological perch. I need to leap from my comfortable place, too, into arms that love me, lift me and free me. It's a God thing. Grace, life and eternity through the Son on the Cross (as Jesus alludes to).

Exciting stuff! I pray I'm getting the message.

BJM In Alberta Col. 3:23


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AS I thought about this passage again, I was first struck by when this meeting took place, at night? My next thought about applying this to people or to churches, was how AVAILABLE are we? Then, I began to think about how RELATABLE we are to others, to those who need to hear the Gospel. How TELLABLE is this story about Nicodemus struggling with being born again, and how tellable is my own journey and experience with Christ? Last, how COMPELLABLE or compelling is this story about God who sent His Son out of his steadfast love for each person in the world? As a Christian, is it optional for me to share this story or not? Do I really feel there is a need to share this story with others?

If these questions were asked by a business analyst, the title could be WHAT IS OUR BUSINESS? Perhaps, in asking these questions of ourselves, we might also ask, WHAT IS OUR BUSINESS? Surely, the third chapter of John has some hints and reminders! --Jim, Owensboro, KY


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AS I thought about this passage again, I was first struck by when this meeting took place, at night? My next thought about applying this to people or to churches, was how AVAILABLE are we? Then, I began to think about how RELATABLE we are to others, to those who need to hear the Gospel. How TELLABLE is this story about Nicodemus struggling with being born again, and how tellable is my own journey and experience with Christ? Last, how COMPELLABLE or compelling is this story about God who sent His Son out of his steadfast love for each person in the world? As a Christian, is it optional for me to share this story or not? Do I really feel there is a need to share this story with others?

If these questions were asked by a business analyst, the title could be WHAT IS OUR BUSINESS? Perhaps, in asking these questions of ourselves, we might also ask, WHAT IS OUR BUSINESS? Surely, the third chapter of John has some hints and reminders! --Jim, Owensboro, KY


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I think that Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus is focused on Nicodemus' inability to understand the working of God. He is a teacher of Israel, one given a special mission to teach Yahweh's people the way, a person you'd expect to be able to handle spiritual things. However, he is unable to grasp the spiritual dimension of what Jesus is speaking about.

When Jesus speaks about being born from above, I believe He's saying to Nicodemus "Get your mind focused on God, you're working merely from a human perspective. How can you be a teacher of Israel and not even understand the simplest of references? Nicodemus, you need to start thinking from God's perspective."

And what is God's perspective? God is now working in the world through the Son to bring salvation.

I think there is a possibility to preach this text as saying being born again is to start thinking like God...to begin seeing the world from His perspective...to be led by His Spirit...and God's perspective is one of tremendous Grace (hence vss. 16,17)

John near Pitts.


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It seems like a good thing to talk of seeing the world through God's eyes but, failed and weak as I am, it also sounds awfully arrogant to think that I can possibly consider such a thing. Anytime I think I have caught a glimpse of what God might be or want to say what I think God wants to say, I am simultaniously confronted by the depth of what I can never realize or know about the mind of God. I am also deeply saddened by those who, with great confidence and power, speak of knowing the mind of God as they administer their warped brand of righteousness, march nations off to war and slam planes into buildings.

To illustrate my point on a far more human level- As a pastor, I love to preach at funerals and was told by many that I 'do a good job'. I spoke with confidence, assurance and was bold in offering hope of the resurrection. Following the death of my parents, I found myself on the recieving end of a pastoral sermon full of confidence, assurance and hope. The preachers words were as good, if not better, than anything I had preached, the words were biblical and sound, but I was struck with a thought- 'This is how I sound and look in the pulpit... and these words are amazingly hollow. They have no meaning. They do not speak to the heart or the pain.'

I once was a pastor who preached boldly. Now I struggle every day to be a servant for the people I serve. Most days I probably could have done far better than I did.

I do not believe I preach 'the word of God' on Sunday mornings because, I feel, only God can do that. I preach instead the word of my heart- filled with compassion, questions, needs, wants, desires, doubts and hope. I typically preface my sermons with a short prayer- "God, I hope your people will look past what I say and hear instead what you long to speak to them. Help us all to listen and help my words so they don't get in the way."

So, I listen more than talk. I question more than answer. I search more than I find. I have also found I am more tolerant of others than I use to be. I admit that I am a flawed, broken, and ramshackle person.

My take on this passage is growing to be this: I like Nic and I think I know where he is coming from- out on the street, searching for an answer, hoping for some light. Nic has a question and goes to Jesus for an answer. Jesus speaks and Nic goes away, not with an answer, but with a lifetime of better questions to think about.

Just bumping along!

TB in MN


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TB in MN -- RIGHT ON!

I'm working on my "Elemental Christianity" thing and noticing that Jesus answer to Nicodemus is really no answer at all -- it simply raises more questions! He says, "Be born of water and the Spirit!" The Spirit is fire (cf. the pillar of cloud, the Pentecost event, etc.) Seen through the lens of the ancients' understanding of the Four Elements, what Jesus asks is simply impossible! Fire and Water cannot be combined -- they are opposites ...

Except this: in my pre-ordination life, I was a lawyer, a litigator. One of my specialties was handling questionable fire cases. I learned a lot about fires, fire suppression, fire investigation and so forth. One of the things I learned is that there are certain fires against which water has no effect. In fact, there are fires which burn so hot that water actually fuels them -- the addition of water to such fires, rather than dampen them, causes explosions!

Perhaps the Fire of the Spirit is like that ... combined with "living water" the result is something explosive and uncontrollable.

Working ... working ... working ....

Blessings, Eric in KS


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TB in MN,

I get the thrust of your post, I too end up asking a lot more questions than I find answers. By using the terminology of looking from God's perspective I am referring to the radical unconditional love from God who while I was His enemy died for me. That amazing old father who disregards propriety and rushes to embrace his long "lost" son...the words of Jesus that condem those who have a relationship to religion but have no love, mercy, forgiveness or grace.

I'm sorry that you automatically conclude that to look at things from God's perspective is to be quick to rush to judgement. Perhaps this might say something about yourself as well. God is AMAZING! I don't believe my job is to speak the mind of God as if I have an insider's knowledge, but rather perhaps to describe how God has revealed Himself in the Scriptures.

You mention in the prayer that you pray before preaching that somehow God might make Himself known and that your words might not become a hinderance. My guess is that your expectation is that somehow and someway God will make Himself or His will known. If not then why pray it at all?

My point is that we can know something about God and what we find out just might help us to live a bit more loving and Christ-like.

Romans 10:14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

Good news, not condemnation! To quote a retired pastor who addressed a small gathering of clergy earlier this month: "Never forget that you have the most important job in the world."

John near Pitts. John near Pitts.


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As a not-so-confident preacher, this last turn in the conversation has struck a nerve. I try to preach something with "meat," as in someone's post awhile back, but I don't know how to (for lack of a better word) entertain the listeners so that they're open. I preach to folks who've been born again 30 - 40 years longer than I've been alive - and I'm 40. How in the world (get it?) does the message of Good News stay fresh to people in their 70's, how do I preach evangelically to the choir, is there any divinely-inspired word from my mouth that will inspire people enough to want to invite another soul to church, and will I engage a newcomer enough to encourage a profession of faith?

This is a highly evangelical text, and, incidentally, I never meant to use "Billy Graham" as a put-down for this type of sermon. Rev. Graham preaches to the pre-Christian, my church has long-saved people.

ANYWAYS, I'm calling mine "Again & Again," and will try to preach a nice Wesleyan sermon about growing in faith, and deepening our commitment as Christ takes an ever more prominent role. I REALLY want to steer from the workaholism theme that pops up so frequently in my sermons (along the lines of "God loves you so rejoice and get to work!"). I want to be able to invite people to inspiration, to renewal, to a relationship that provides so much more than the attitude that others perceive in Christians that we're only interested in going to heaven.

I ran across a quote (apologies to whoever said it, but I don't have my resource here at the office) that suggested that Christians have inoculated the world against Christianity - so that the message no longer has a potent impact. Not so much that they've HARMED (although Christianity was used by some to scare me into being an atheist for awhile), but that they've presented such a cleaned-up, watered-down, bare-bones view that there seems to be no reason to be Christian other than Oprah-esque self-improvement. And Oprah does it better.

By the way, what does Austin 3:16 mean? Austin is a prof. wrestler, right? what does the 3:16 mean?

Boy! That was a long post! Thanks for reading.

Sally in GA


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There is no doubt that rebirth is a life-saver, but unless they're very good actors and actresses, the folks in my congregation aren't out drinking and fighting and carousing (most of them can't even drive after dark). Yet, they are in as great, if not greater, need of being saved - from illness, dysfunctional family dynamics, a lackluster conception of Christ. Hounding into them on how awful their lives are and how they need to be reborn simply isn't where their lives are.

So, again, how do you preach to the ones who are there, and have fought the fight (whether good or not), and are looking at the end of their lives, have watched their friends die, have seen their church decline from 250 to 88, and who really want to, but dont' know how to reach their already-changed community? And, somebody PLEASE TELL ME how to evangelize more quickly than I'm going - the bishop's breathing down the necks of those whose churches don't receive members on profession of faith.

gosh, I shouldn't sign this, should I??? You'll know who the bishop is.


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"Being born of water and Spirit," This phrase spoke differently to me today than it ever has before. I've always thought of them as two elements of one event (i.e. baptism). Today it occurred to me that the 'and' could possibly mean 'and also'. Tying it to the next verse, "What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit," might it be possible that being born of water IS the fleshly birth, and the birth of the Spirit is in addition to the birth of flesh? Is that what THIS text is saying, or is this text only about a sacrament?

This should not be a problem for the theology of baptism, for one cannot be washed without water. But I'm not sure what to do with this...

Michelle


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Sally in GA,

Yes, Stone-Cold Austin is a professional Wrestler (if you can call it wrestling). My husband says Austin used to throw out the meaning in some quote like "I'm going whoop you and you' better believe it because Stone-Cold said so." But my husband couldn't remember exactly what Austin had said. Apparently, Austin isn't using that line anymore, and has moved on to another fad. Certainly, it was a take-off on the fact that in almost every professional sporting event, someone in the crowd is holding up a sign that says "John 3:16." Too bad the people who don't already know the story have no idea what John 3:16 means either.

Michelle


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Here're a couple of ideas for consideration ...

First: There are two verbs for the parental activity of giving birth: one is "bear" and is the action of the mother; the other is "beget" and is the action of the father. The verb for "birth" used here is the paternal variety - Gennao (ghen-NAH-o). Jesus is not saying (as Nick misconstrues in two ways), "You must be born again." He is saying, "You must be begotten (i.e., by the Father) from above."

Second: Children have no control over being born (or begotten). Many of our "born again" brothers and sisters talk as if it is something over which we exercise control -- that we can choose to be born again. But, repeated, birth is not up to the child; bearing or begetting is a parental activity.

Blessings, Eric in KS


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When I was asked (fresh out of seminary) to do a service at a nursing home, I spoke to an older clergy person and asked, "What can I say that these folks who have been believers longer than I've been alive haven't heard already?" Cal's response: "You know the old hymn, I love to tell the story to those who know it best seem hungering and thirsting to hear it like the rest."

Remember the child who keeps picking the same bedtime story every night and knows it so well as to determine when you're trying to cheat and skip pages? Some times I think it's good to just hear the story.

Perhaps this passage and this Sunday might be a chance for people to share their own faith journeys or a chance to share our own "conversion" stories.

John near Pitts.


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Been a long time reader, but my first contribution. I am a lay pastor serving a dying church. 10 years ago they had over 200 every Sunday and now I see between 25 and 35 on a Sunday. I have struggled with my limited knowledge as to how to reach these people. As to a Bishop breathng down your neck, I think that he has it all wrong. What about that large group of "churched" people that only show up on C & E? How do we reach them?

As to this week's text, you have got me thinking about faith. God's grace blows on us whether we ask for it or not. I like the idea of telling the old, old story to those that know it best. We are so like Nick, he knows the story, but does he know how to see it at work around him?

Steve in IN


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To our friend who is keeping his/her bishop a secret . . .

I did a nursing home service that at first upset my younger members -- until they saw how the residents responded. I began with a simple question and answered it at different stages of life: "where are you going?" (what follows are just some of the suggestions used)

2 yrs old: I'm going to Grandma's; I'm going to take a nap

5 yrs old: I'm going to kindergarten, I'm going to Bobby's house

16 yrs old: I'm going on a date, going to the football game, going to the mall

18 yrs old: going to college, going into the armed services, going to a friend's wedding, going to Florida for spring break

25 yrs old: going to work, going to visit parents, going to the gym

(add your own stops along the way, you get the idea)

70 yrs old: going to the hospital, going to a funeral, again; going to see the grandkids

When we get to the end of our lives, we still are asked: Where are you going? Where was Nicodemus going? To be with Jesus, to make sense of his life, to find that peace that only Jesus can offer. Believe in Jesus, and you'll know where you are going.

OLAS


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I find it interesting that Jesus had different requirements and challenges for different people. Jesus never recited a formula or tried to fit people into a rigid set of truths. To the rich ruler he said, "Go, sell all that you have and give to the porr, and you will have treasure in heaven." Others he just put his hands upon and healed, and they rose up with new eyes or a new life. And sometimes he refused to perform any miracles but insisted that people believe on the basis of the signs of the Old Testament. He told Nicodemus "You must be born again."

Whatever Jesus requires of us, it can't be simplified into 4 spiritual laws, 10 commandments or 12 steps. Not that any of these systems are not true or useful. It's just that the requirements for a relationship can't be boiled down into a system.

Nicodemus was a Pharisee, part of the most devout sect of Jews. He represented the Jewish establishment which focused its concerns on the moral requirements of the law. He came to Jesus expecting a discussion about who Jesus was and the nature of the kingdom. But instead, Jesus focused on Nicodemus and said, if you want to see the Kingdom of God, something must happen to YOU.

He had to stop focusing on the problems and issues of earthly existence, what is proper to eat, when should we rest, how should we treat servants and neighbors, how do we deal with disease, how do we regulate our sexual behavior, what obligation do we have to share our possessions. These are all important questions to work out. And considering the time, the Pharisees probably offered one of the best models of good and upright behavior.

But according to Jesus, salvation does not come through moral achievements, nor by overcoming the problems of earthly existence, but rather through transformation. The kingdom of God does not depend on our reaching perfection in this life, but on God's grace.

I think of being born again as rearranging our lives. What is in the center of our lives? Our problems, our families, our experiences? Before we may have defined ourselves as a child of our parents, a creature of the earth, or defined ourselves by our activites. When we are born from above, we are first and foremost children of God.

I think one of the things that makes the most difference in people's lives is to believe that God is love... that God actually loves them, as well as the world. Do we really believe that God loves the world? Do we really believe that God loves us? If we can get that down, we are beginning a new life. But as Eric pointed out, that's God's activity, not our's. We can pray that God help us understand that God is love, and we are God's children.

Thank you all for being out there. DGinNYC


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I once heard that "salvation" literally means "to be set into a larger space." I like this definition. Does anyone know if the definition is accurate? Nicodemus was living in the small place of legalism or perfectionism. Being physically born is moving from a small (maybe warm and comfortable) womb to the larger place, where real life and freedom occurs. Maybe being born from above is the process of salvation. Living by the spirit, or living by grace, is "being set into a larger space." The larger space must allow more compassion. It's a wider place of understanding. Brent


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I just read today in Scott Peck's book "Golf and the Spirit" his comments about mystics. He says mystics have three general characteristics. 1. A vision of underlying Unity. They see invisible connections underneath the surface of things. I think this is neat, considering Nicodemus was a Pharisee who were "the separated ones." 2. Mystics speak a core language of Paradox. They go about the business of reconciling opposites into unities. They love making connections and transcending categories. 3. The taste for Mystery. Peck says mystics love solving mysteries and they are also quite comfortable living with the unknown and the unknowable. "If you meet someone who thinks she has God all sewn up in her back pocket, then you have not met a mystic. Indeed, genuine mystics delight in the knowledge that it is not within our human purview to know everything." (Peck) I think Jesus is inviting Nicodemus to walk the spiritual path that leads to mysticism, not to become the secretary of the Sanhedrin. Brent.


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Brent, I don't know about the "larger space" of salvation, but I racall that in the gospels the greek word for salvation or being saved is the same or nearly the same as the word "healing" - to be saved is to be healed in many of Jesus' healing stories - as in your faith has saved you - or healed you.

The larger challenge with this passage is that in John's gospel we are in a unique literary world - Jophn has his own meanings and symbolic language that only comes together in to a whole we can "get" or understand when we have read the whole thing and soaked it all in. He repeats things over and over - teh coming and going to and from above, darkness and light, "seeing" - here as in seeing the kingdom, later with Thomas seeing the marks on Jesus hands, water as a symbol for life, the Spirit as God's presence, Jesus being lifted up or raised (meaning on the cross, whoch for John is Jesus' glorification) and many more. But I think the overriding message of John is a call to BELIEVE - to Nicodemus and everyone else Jesus encounters. Its as if he just wants us to believe adn then we'll see who Jesus is and what God is doing in CHrist. Jim in CT.


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TB in MN, I often pray a similar prayer, as I heard it prayed once, before a sermon,"O Lord, May your Word be heard in my words, and your Word being heard, may my words be forgotten." Of course I still remember those words, so I guess the Word was in them.

Eric in KS, thanx for the word study on "bearing and begetting". So often I am in need of Fore-bearing and fore-getting.

2-year-old - I'm going to grandma's. I'm going to take a nap.

90-year-old - "I'm going to be with grandma. I'm going to nap. What goes around comes around again, and the faithful trusting words of a little child shall lead them on. several thoughts for several folks. tom in TN(USA)


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To the pastor with the Bishop breathing down your neck,

My advice to someone who wants to experience rapid spiritual and numeric growth is this: pray. As it says in the passage, "the Spirit blows where it will". Ultimately, except by the gifting of the Holy Spirit there is no revival or renewal. I'm in the 8th year in my church, and in the last 2 we've taken in 40 new members. During the 1st five there were a couple of years where we received none. Even with the blessing of the Spirit renewal often takes time.

In Christ, Dale Proulx


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What about this? Nicodemus was a Pharisee and a member of the Sanhedrin. An insider. A faithful relgious person. He comes to Jesus to see if he is what he says he is, the messiah. He come seeking clarification, seeking truth.

For all struggling, with the born again issue of the people in the pews, compare them to Nicodemus.

George Barna has recently been quoted as saying "41 percent of adults who attend church regularly have not made a commitment to Jesus Christ that is still important in their life today."

two of every five adults sitting in the pew are Nicodemuses needing to be born-again again.

<>< Kingdom DJ


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To Michelle -- you asked about an interpretation of being born of water and the Spirit, that they might be two distinct events. First we are born of water (as when a woman's water breaks), which is coordinate to the verse about being born of flesh. In other words, we all experience natural birth. But there is also a birth of the Spirit. This is the interpretation favored by those who deny any sacramental effect to baptism, and that there are baptismal references in this passage. See, e.g., the footnote in The Living Bible which follows this interpretation. I like to follow Raymond Brown, who sees these two births not as identical (i.e., being baptized is being born of the Spirit) nor as antithetical, as in the interpretation above, but as coordinate. That is, being baptized and being born of the Spirit are two parts, two stages, which are intended by God to go together, in the whole of a Christian's life. Hope this helps the discussion. -- Mike in Maryland


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One thing for those with video capabilities is in the Movie "Brother Sun Sister Moon" Francis uses the born again phrase as he cuts ties to his father,

Lewis in Alabama


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We make so many huge assumptions. If I say, "You must be out of your mind" am I giving someone the directive that they must go out of their mind?

We asume that Jesus was chiding Nic about being blind to spiritual things but the evidence is that Nic had far more appreciation for Jesus work and words than did many of the Sanhedrin. Wish we could see the expression of Jesus face and hear the inflexion in his voice before we assume that he is being harsh and confrontive of Nic. What if Jesus is speaking words of appreciation for Nic's wonder and mysticism? Manzel


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Thanks, everyone; sorry to have been such a downer yesterday. I get frustrated sometimes about how out-of-touch the higher-ups seem to be with churches that should have been tended to 20 or more years ago - and are now expecting us to play "catch up" for the Kingdom. I also feel a little inadequate; I'm not that passionate an evangelist, I'm more "outreach & service"-oriented than "lead-someone-to-Christ" - oriented.

still unsigned ... oh, what the heck! I'm Sally in GA - and spending time on my knees.


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BTW:

Does anyone know whatever became of Tom in GA? I miss his thought-provoking posts.

Sally, again


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As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness? That was a very common and unmistakable practice of Egyptian magic. Jesus must surely have had a twinkle in his eye when he said that. but what did Jesus mean? It has the same kind of oddity as using the example of an unjust judge to make a point about prayer.


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Perhaps some insights gleaned from Raymond Brown and others’ historical reconstruction of the Johannine community might help to unpack the story.

There’s strong evidence that John portrays Nicodemus as a representative, symbolic figure. He represents what John Wesley called the ‘almost Christian’. He is prepared to acknowledge Jesus as a great teacher and worker of miracles, but not as Son of God.

Traditionally Nicodemus has been sympathetically treated as someone who later comes to faith – indeed there are legendary accounts which continue his story beyond his final appearance at the end of John’s Gospel. But I wonder whether this misinterprets the intention of the evangelist?

Brown suggests that John belonged to a community of Jewish Christians who had been forcibly ejected from the synagogue because of their faith in Jesus. It is this experience that gives John’s Gospel its distinctly anti-Jewish tone. As a community of believers who had suffered because of their public profession of Jesus, the church would understandably be impatient with others who kept their faith a secret.

From this perspective, how would the Johannine community understand Nicodemus? Nicodemus represents those Jews who were interested in Jesus, perhaps even accepted him as Messiah, but were unable to make a public commitment. For someone like Nicodemus that would have been social and political suicide. Yet John reminds us that nothing less is demanded. In part, John’s Gospel is a call for crypto-Christians such as Nicodemus to stand up and be counted, to trust in Jesus not just as teacher, but also as Lord; to be baptized and join the church.

It is highly significant that Nicodemus comes at night, for he comes from the darkness of the world into the presence of the true light. From John’s viewpoint, to turn one’s back on Jesus and go back into the darkness is to cut oneself off from God. Nicodemus has to come off the fence and make a choice: does he love the light or does he love the darkness?

The question for us is: when the chips are down, are we afraid of being seen to be a disciple of Jesus?

Shalom,

Paul Weary – Croydon, UK


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How about an alternative approach to John 3:3? Three points, based on different translations:

1. No one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again. (NIV)

The Christian must be born again, in other words born a second time. One can only become a citzen of the kingdom of God by becoming a child there again.

2. Unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God. (RSV)

The rebirth must be from the beginning – Jesus is calling for radical change. John Wesley: “if our Lord, by being born again, means only reformation of life, instead of making any new discovery, he has only thrown a great deal of obscurity on what was before plain and obvious.” More than a change of life, Jesus calls for a change of heart. Note that this translation shifts the emphasis away from the experience of rebirth to the new life that follows from it.

3. No one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above (NJB)

The Christian must be born from above, born of heaven, born of the Spirit. Rebirth has its origin in God. Wesley again: [The New Birth] is the great change which God works in the soul when he brings it to life; when he raises it from the death of sin to the life of righteousness.’

Shalom,

Paul Weary – Croydon, UK


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Have often read other's comments. Thought I would venture out and add my own. As I consider the text here's the thoughts that I'm gravitating toward for my sermon. 1) When we think of those whose lives have been changed by Jesus we (I) often think of drug addicts or prostitutes (the Matthews or Marys - the one with 7 demons). Nicodemus (along with many people in our day) was a good person who just happened to not know Jesus. There are a lot of "good guys" (and gals) in our time that just don't believe. The Gospel is for them (the Nicodemus's) as well. 2) I think about how Jesus responded to Nick. He could have made fun of him. He could have bragged about "the things" Nick referred to in his opening comments. Instead He used Nicks opening comments to lead to a place of discovery for Nick. How do we treat people with questions about God and life? Do we recognize the question? (Sometimes it's camaflouged.) Do we let pride cause us to talk about ourselves? Do we belittle the person with the question and cause them to clam up? Or do we take the opportunities presented to draw them to the One who was lifted up? There's so much more. 3) Nicodemus wanted to put God in a box, in a formula, but Jesus told him you can't (see also Heb. 6:1-3). If these jog anyone's thinking with practical illustrations let me know...

Roger in IA


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I am not sure which commentary, I think Barkley, said that there was a special meaning in that culture to the phrase, "came at night". One who came at night was a friend who came in a personal way to one's house and to discuss theology at night meant a longer personal conversation rather than the kind of rethorical encounters that happened in the temple in the day time.

We are mistaken to think that Nicodemeus in someway looked down upon Jesus. Rather it is clear that Nicodemeus recognized and acknowledged that Jesus works were through the power of the holy spirit and Jesus affirms that Nicodemeus would not have recognized this unless he too had the spirit in this life. Manzel


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Sally in GA:

Don't worry about the Bishop. I have one too. The Spirit blows where it will. It helps me to realize that, in the end, salvation is God's business. Jesus said, "no one can come to me unless first drawn by the father." (Trust me, it's somewhere in John!). We can do what we will and try to speak a word of God, but I certainly believe it has much less to do with what we say than with the unsearchable Spirit.

Take the pressure off yourself and put it on God. He (She?) can handle it. I agree with Dale. Prayer is the key to inviting the Spirit's work, and the people will come only if drawn.

This is not to say we have no part in it. For some reason, God prefers working with and trusting us earthen vessels. But be prayerful and faithful, and leave the rest to God. Our salvation comes through faith, not by any works, right? It's the same with the salvation of others under our preaching. It comes not by our works, but by FAITH that God will be God. Salvation does come from above, as Nicodemus learns.

Having said this, I have the same monthly forms (you sseem to be UMC)asking for Professions. That is also what our hiearchy focuses on. Sometimes, you have something to put down, sometimes it's a goose-egg! We're not of the world, but we sure like to measure "success" by the world's standards, don't we.

God's ways are not our ways. Two days ago, an eight year old girl walked into my office after school and told me she wanted to have Jesus in her heart. She had not talked about it with her mother of grandmother, or anyone. But she told me she had been thinking about it for quite a while. We talked about it for a while, celebrated together and talked about her desire for baptism. She was scared about coming to see me about it, but she just knew she had to that day. She was so happy, eager, expectant. This is the second time in as many months that an 8 yr. old has come to me to profess faith. An 8 yr. old!

The Spirit blows where it will, and I think that's from the heart of God to the human heart that is ready.

Your elderly can become like these little children. (Didn't Jesus say we all had to to see the kingdom of God?)

Sally - Hear God's word to you: "You are my daughter, the beloved. In you I am well pleased."

Blessings to you in your labors in His name,

RevK in OK

PS - sorry for all my ramblings that probably didn't help in anyone's sermonizing.


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I am a relative newby to this site and I have enjoyed this discussion. I have two quick questions/thoughts...

The first deals with everyone's use of the old and new testaments in their sermons. I want to tie it all in together, but often the lectionary has the different verses speaking different languages. I was curious to hear any thoughts on this.

Secondly, I see this section much clearer when I compare the NIV...born again and the NRSV...born from above. The Spirit that blows wherever it will is part of the same Trinity that produces a Spirit of Adoption.

I also wanted to comment on the lifting up of the snake in Egypt. We should be lifting up the cross during this season of lent as the true sign of healing (spirtual, emotional and physical.)

I look to the hills...from where does my help come.

I look to Jesus...how is it possible to be born again?

I look to Jesus on that hill (Lent)...there is my help!

Missouri Dave


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Dave K. - Can I steal your sermon title (Nick at Nite)? DGinNYC


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Just a comment-if we reduce the "born anew" or "born from above" to a single birth event, I think we have missed the boat. Everyone does have a birth which, without modern medicine and methods would have been very painful. Even at the time that I had my children, it was a painful experience, but it did not end there. For a Mother or Father, it means years of nurture, and never being able to cease being the parent of that child even when they are adults, altho the relationship changes as the child grows. I think the new birth is as risky as Abram and Sarah going forth from their country and kindred in faith. also as I ramble around, much of modern life is like Nick, we think we can control things and have all the knowlege and all the answers, but when confronted with some issues, we just can't quite get it and we discover how little control we have. Someone suggested a title for the sermon of, "The Man Who Knew Too Much" We spend a lot of time in our heads instead of in the heart and loving the world as God so loved it. But it is ok because Abram had the faith to start the journey, but he didn't leave all the kin there, so he didn't follow perfectly either. And we know all the struggles after that he got into too. Preacher Marie


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One other comment which no one has mentioned. It is about the Moses lifting up the snake in the wilderness. You remember the people had been bit by "fiery sepents" and were dying. They repented and God told Moses to make a bronze serpent and put it on a pole, and every one who looks up to the serpent would live.(story in Numbers 21:4ff. One wonders about this since there were to be no graven images. Is it too simplistic to say that a snake on a pole makes a cross--a prediction of things to come.Preacher W


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One other comment which no one has mentioned. It is about the Moses lifting up the snake in the wilderness. You remember the people had been bit by "fiery sepents" and were dying. They repented and God told Moses to make a bronze serpent and put it on a pole, and every one who looks up to the serpent would live.(story in Numbers 21:4ff. One wonders about this since there were to be no graven images. Is it too simplistic to say that a snake on a pole makes a cross--a prediction of things to come.Preacher W


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One other comment which no one has mentioned. It is about the Moses lifting up the snake in the wilderness. You remember the people had been bit by "fiery sepents" and were dying. They repented and God told Moses to make a bronze serpent and put it on a pole, and every one who looks up to the serpent would live.(story in Numbers 21:4ff. One wonders about this since there were to be no graven images. Is it too simplistic to say that a snake on a pole makes a cross--a prediction of things to come.Preacher W


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In Moses's day a snake on a pole was emblematic of goddess worship.

Go figure.

I certainly don't know what to make of it. pHil


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The version of the text posted here at desperate preacher ruins the whole thing. It is like someone who knows the punch line to a joke. Poor Nicodemus hears "anothen" and interprets it to mean "born again" while Jesus means "born from above." Being the straight man in this comedy routine he wants to know how he can possibly fit back in his mother's womb to born again. Reminds me of the Smothers Brothers or Sonny and Cher. Nicodemus is in the dark, like a straight man in a comedy routine, he can't see. But what is not funny is that 2000 years later people still want to be "born again." It is like wanting a mother than will give you a tricycle with only two wheels (Smothers Brothers). We must be born FROM above. Just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up. And in the Son of Man we are lifted up. I am not born again. I am nothing, until the Son Man chooses me from above. Someone in SW Asia


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“Open the eyes of my heart, Lord, I want to see you … I want to see you.” **

One could almost feel the presence of the walls even before we arrived, even before we stood before their imposing corporealness. We had stopped at the camera shop where all the tourist would go to purchase batteries for foreign cameras that few here would ever be able to purchase. The clerk was soon clucking about from one case to another, picking up this type of battery or that, making sure that we understood the importance of her position in this dance of commerce, yet, the energy of her activity did little to minimize the nervous anticipation growing in the pit of my stomach. What would we find when we arrived at this place of prisoners, this place of Russian prisoners?

Ten very short minutes later we stood before them, an enormous unbroken hedgerow of dusty rock. The dirty fading paint of once white-washed walls rose before us shutting out the scenery beyond. I looked upon their imposing presence, topped by ugly coils of rusty razor wire, a sure deterrence for any who were foolish enough to attempt a journey over their heights. And as I stood there, in front of what had been one of the more important prisons of the Soviet gulag system, Yekaterinburg Prison #2, I thought of the thousands of lives that had passed through this place of anguish, this place of shattered dreams and broken bodies. Many who came here would spend years caged within these dismal walls. Others would find that it was only a stopping point. Those truly troublesome political prisoners, the real “problems of the State,” were shipped from this place to the far reaches of Siberia. Now, in the new age of Perestroika, it was the place of Russia’s common prisoners – thieves and thugs and rapists and murderers. Just the common scum of society.

We had come here with our Russian friends, a small community of faith, a congregation that had begun as a house church. They had connected themselves to this place of heartache several years before. Through the leadership of two pastors, Yelena Petrova and Elena Stopaniva, these few folks had wrapped themselves around the men in these walls, had wrapped themselves around all the hurt and anger and hopelessness, and had loved them. They had wrapped themselves around men that most had forgotten, that most were glad to forget, and they had loved them real good.

Even though they had no church building in which to worship apart from a small apartment, even though they had very little resource other than a burning passion to be the Body of Christ, they reached into the walls of this place of imprisonment, expending that thing which they could most offer, their very lives. Their extended families were bewildered that they would journey behind the walls. “How can this be? It is a hopeless circumstance!” they would say, and then they would shake their heads and role their eyes. Their friends wondered had they gone absolutely mad. “What could you possibly hope to accomplish with these killers, these very evil men?” Yet, the words of disbelief did not deter them. The words of discouragement would not be a barrier. They simply went forward, connecting and caring and loving.

At some point, a baptism took place in that prison. One of the ones who others would only name as evil heard the words, “I baptize you in the name of …” Soon, there was another, and then another. Ten, twelve, a hundred. Eight hundred men, eight hundred children of a most loving God heard those words “… the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” Their friends were right. It was madness, wonderful, unbelievable madness, the madness of a a small community of faith who, clinging together, simply desired more than anything else, to be the Church.

Then one day another miracle occurred. A sister church in Pulaski, Arkansas offered up its support so that they might construct a place of communal worship, a place where they might come together and tell the stories of Christ, a place where they might tell their stories of prison conversions and share their stories of rebirth. And they did built that church. They built that place of story telling. They built it on Holy Ground, they built it connected to the exterior wall of Prison #2, there where their community resided, these thieves and thugs and rapists and murderers, there where they had seen the Kingdom. No condemnation, only love.

“Open the eyes of my heart Lord. Open the eyes of my heart. I want to see you.” We … all of us … need to see you.

** Lyrics from Open the Eyes of My Heart by Paul Baloche

Shalom my friends,

Nail-Bender in NC


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Mike in Maryland,

Thank you.

Michelle


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Sally in Georgia, it was Billy Graham who said that, I heard the sermon when he preached it on radio. As to being born again and to make it come alive in our churches, How about John Wesley's experiance? did he not feel as if he was born again at Aldersgate? As for those buzz words, I also do not like them, but will try to put them into a life experiance like that of John Wesley and Martin Luther, who felt as if there was much needed work the church was not doing and tried to revive the church. Make it born to do the work of Christ instead of being an institution. MR in NY


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Why are we seeming to believe that there is a dichotomous relationship between being "born again" and "born from above?" Must the understandings of "anothen" be mutually exclusive. As one who unabashedly and unashamedly claims the mantle of being "born again" I know the source of that "new life" with which I was graced. I also know the profound differnece it made in my life. To me, it adds to the richness of the texture of the Christian Experience. The truth is that we all need a point of departure from the life governed by the tenets of "this world" to the life governed by the law of Grace in Christ Jesus. I don't think anyone would claim to have a magic formula by which that experience can be conjured up, (except for a few "denominations" who also seem to think they have an exclusive relationship with the Holy Spirit.) It is an experience directed by God - from above - in which we find ourselves trnsformed from sinners into forgiven sinners - becoming a saint takes a lot more work on our part to understand the depth of the experience - Wesley's idea of "going on to perfection."

But the essence to me is that Jesus is telling us thorugh Nicodemus that we must be changed, transformed, from our complicity with the sins of life of a sin sick and weary nature without God, to acceptance of the grace offered of a new life fulfilling our creation in God's image and acquiesing to God's sovereignty in the work we do here. Rick in SOGA.


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Why are we seeming to believe that there is a dichotomous relationship between being "born again" and "born from above?" Must the understandings of "anothen" be mutually exclusive. As one who unabashedly and unashamedly claims the mantle of being "born again" I know the source of that "new life" with which I was graced. I also know the profound difference it made in my life. To me, it adds to the richness of the texture of the Christian Experience. The truth is that we all need a point of departure from the life governed by the tenets of "this world" to the life governed by the law of Grace in Christ Jesus. I don't think anyone would claim to have a magic formula by which that experience can be conjured up (except for a few "denominations" who also seem to think they have an exclusive relationship with the Holy Spirit.) It is an experience directed by God - from above - in which we find ourselves transformed from sinners into forgiven sinners - becoming a saint takes a lot more work on our part to understand the depth of the experience - Wesley's idea of "going on to perfection."

But the essence to me is that Jesus is telling us thorugh Nicodemus that we must be changed, transformed, from our complicity with the sins of life of a sin sick and weary nature without God, to acceptance of the grace offered of a new life fulfilling our creation in God's image and acquiesing to God's sovereignty in the work we do here. Rick in SOGA.


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Why are we seeming to believe that there is a dichotomous relationship between being "born again" and "born from above?" Must the understandings of "anothen" be mutually exclusive. As one who unabashedly and unashamedly claims the mantle of being "born again" I know the source of that "new life" with which I was graced. I also know the profound difference it made in my life. To me, it adds to the richness of the texture of the Christian Experience. The truth is that we all need a point of departure from the life governed by the tenets of "this world" to the life governed by the law of Grace in Christ Jesus. I don't think anyone would claim to have a magic formula by which that experience can be conjured up (except for a few "denominations" who also seem to think they have an exclusive relationship with the Holy Spirit.) It is an experience directed by God - from above - in which we find ourselves transformed from sinners into forgiven sinners - becoming a saint takes a lot more work on our part to understand the depth of the experience - Wesley's idea of "going on to perfection."

But the essence to me is that Jesus is telling us thorugh Nicodemus that we must be changed, transformed, from our complicity with the events of this world without God, in which the sins of life create a sin sick and weary nature, to acceptance of the grace offered leading to a new life fulfilling the promise of our creation in God's image and acquiesing to God's sovereignty in all that we do here. Rick in SOGA.


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Oh, good grief - I've forgotten how to edit on this forum. My apologies for all of the posts above. God Bless; Rick from SOGA


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JG in WI to Humble in Ks.

Allow me to offer something as a Southern Baptist (which Billy Graham and I both are).

I don't think Jesus got his material from Billy Graham - quite the reverse. This is Bible and if we can't preach the Bible, what shall we preach? I preach the lectionary (often) and I don't bump into Matthew 16:18 and say, "Oh, this is Roman Catholic material." The goal is to understand.

Everyone - this is the story of a man who went to meet another man and ended up meeting God. If we can't preach that... we have so little to say. Isn't that what church is supposed to be for... so people can meet with God?

God is not asking you (or me) to be Billy Graham. God is asking us to present His Word to people based on our own meetings with Him this week. The people in your church are desperate to hear what God has said to you this week. What will you tell them?

I bid you peace and enlightenment.


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JG: A great post (which means: 'I agree!')

I shy away from saying I 'preach the word of God' but I don't shy away from sharing where I have found of God in my life. I do however also hold fast to the notion that I might be wrong, my perceptions are far from perfect and I try to listen carefully when others offer their opposing point of view (as I posted earlier: I like Nic and see a lot of myself in him). When it all shakes out, Jesus points to the power of story and that is where I take my cue in preaching. Also, as I long to hear how others meet God in the week, I look to this web page to hear the stories... many times slipping in late at night (just like Nic again).

This week, from this text and my life, I am coming to see the need to stop, take time, pause and listen... so that is what I will share on Sunday- the good of how hard I see my congregation working and living out their faith and the bad of how tired, drained and weary some of us have become. The season of Lent is filled for me with messages of waiting, preparing, hoping, searching and working toward a powerful goal.

Grist for the mill,

TB in MN


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Wouldn’t you hate to be Nicodemus. Here you have come to Jesus and you try to be decent to him. You tell him you believe that God sent him.

And Jesus turns around and pretty much says, Nick, you don’t know as much as you think you know.

The only way you can see the kingdom of God is if you are born again.

You want to look and say, “Do whut? How can that happen?”

And in a round about way, Jesus says, “You won’t understand.”

He says. We don’t know where the wind comes from or where it blows... We can’t tell you where it’s going to end up, but we know it’s there.

You can see the leaves moving.


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I found Manzel's reference to Barclay's The Gospel of John:

"The rabbis declared that the best time to study the law was at night when a man was undisturbed. Throughout the day Jesus was surrounded by crowds of people all the time. It may well be that Nicodemus came to Jesus at night because he wanted an absolutely private and completely undisturbed time with Jesus.

"Nicodemus was a puzzled man, a man with many honours and yet with something lacking in his life. He cam to Jesus for a talk so that somehow in the darkness of the night he might find light."

_The Gospel of John: Vol. 1_, Wm Barclay, Westminster Press: Philadelphia, 1975, p. 124

A footnote in Bultmann also supports this:

"There is no indication that his coming by night was occasioned by his 'fear of the Jews' (19.38). It is more likely that this is intended to show his great zeal, in the same way as nocturnal study is recommended by the Rabbis (Str.-B II 420). But above all it allows the Evangelist to fulfill his intention of creating an air of mystery."

That last sentence refers to the point Bultmann makes in the main text:

"The nocturnal setting and style of the dialogue - above all Nicodemus' misunderstanding and the 'oux oidas'; of v. 8 - give the whole passage an air of mystery, which is developed in a three-fold sense as the mystery of rebirth, the mystery of the Son of Man, and the mystery of the witness. But above all an air of mystery lies over the whole passage, because Jesus only speaks of the Revealer in the third person and never discloses himself by an 'ego eimi'-saying."

_The Gospel of John: A Commentary_, Rudolf Bultmann, Westminster Press: Philadelphia, 1971, p. 133 (and fn. 5)

I have to admit that I have always preached the "cover-of-night-because-of-fear" thesis.... but I rather like this "so-important-we-study-it-at-night" spin.....

Blessings, Eric in KS


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Wouldn't you love to be Nicodemus?

You sit at Jesus feet, you hear him teach. You don't understand it all but at least you get the truth from the source. You go away baffled because, after all, who can really understand God? But still... you have heard the Messiah! You got to talk with him! You got to sit with him and be in his presence! What an honor!

You don't get it... that you admit... but then, who would? Only a fool would think they understand it all. Salvation? Grace? God? Being born again?

The wind blows, the leaves shiver and you marvel at the beauty of God and you thank that God for bringing Jesus into the world.

What would any of us give for one brief moment in the presence of the Savior... even if, in the presence of God's Son, we might have looked foolish?

TB from MN


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hi, all!

appreciate your contributions this week. just wanted to say about moses lifting the serpent on the pole in the wilderness - the cause of death (serpent) became also, by the power of God, the source of healing.

similarly with jesus: the instrument of torture & death (the cross) became the source of our ultimate healing & salvation.

secondly, i really appreciated your submission, John outside of Pitts. actually i was thinking similarly of the "change of perspective" that accompanies being "born from above." we don't see things the same way anymore, but from a much broader perspective. babies are born w/a certain perspective, which changes as they grow. as we grow in our spiritual lives, hopefully we can come to see others more & more in ways that lead us to RESPOND IN LOVE - which is the effect that reveals that one has indeed been born anew, according to the passage.

our perspective can be so broad that when... -someone yells at us & accusing us of having our dog poop on their lawn on purpose, we can only wonder incredulously at the people this poor women has encountered in her life...

-etc., etc. to the example of South African victims who entered into the process of Truth & Reconciliation, for the healing & unity of the entire country, rather than for the purpose of retalitory justice. the goal was to bring the truth out into the open; compensation of victims occurred to an extent, but was not the primary objective.

-and we are called to follow even to suffering & death ourselves, FOR REAL.

that is what reveals that we have been "born anew/from above" - not some sort of supernatural experience...

deb from the 'burgh too - Hi, John!


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You must be born again - you must be animated again - enlivened again - enspirited again - enthused (en-theo-sed) again. There is the story about the hopeful twin who was born first and the pessimistic one thinks that his brothers first cry of life is a cry of death. I am working on the wind blowing where it wills analogy and the unpredictability of that life in the spirit. Sailing imagery comes to mind where sailors do everything to catch the wind when it is there and accept that it will come and go. I'd don't know what blew over the first four skaters for the Aussie to win gold but it's a great story about unpredictability. Just some musings, blessings Petereo.


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Thanks for all the helpful comments. By the way, although I am Lutheran I love BIlly Graham's preaching. He always preached a simple Gospel and I think people responded to him so greatly because of it.

Anyway, the sermon title this week will be "I have a Question for You God." There's all of this born again language that doesn't fit well with Lutherans, but everyone can relate to the questions of Nicodemus. Jesus tells him about the kingdom of God and he is left puzzled and says "how can these things be?" How many people wonder the same thing about baptism, about the sacraments, etc.

Nicodemus is interesting because although he is left with questions we read later that he questioned the willingness of others to condemn Jesus (John 7:50-52) and he helped Joseph of Arimathea take down the body of Christ from the cross for burial. Yet he had questions.

All of us have questions and addressing that can be helpful. I hope this is of value to you. May God be with you this Sunday as you stand before the people of God and give a witness.

Vicar in Chicago


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Thanks for all the helpful comments. By the way, although I am Lutheran I love BIlly Graham's preaching. He always preached a simple Gospel and I think people responded to him so greatly because of it.

Anyway, the sermon title this week will be "I have a Question for You God." There's all of this born again language that doesn't fit well with Lutherans, but everyone can relate to the questions of Nicodemus. Jesus tells him about the kingdom of God and he is left puzzled and says "how can these things be?" How many people wonder the same thing about baptism, about the sacraments, etc.

Nicodemus is interesting because although he is left with questions we read later that he questioned the willingness of others to condemn Jesus (John 7:50-52) and he helped Joseph of Arimathea take down the body of Christ from the cross for burial. Yet he had questions.

All of us have questions and addressing that can be helpful. I hope this is of value to you. May God be with you this Sunday as you stand before the people of God and give a witness.

Vicar in Chicago


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Thanks for all the helpful comments. By the way, although I am Lutheran I love BIlly Graham's preaching. He always preached a simple Gospel and I think people responded to him so greatly because of it.

Anyway, the sermon title this week will be "I have a Question for You God." There's all of this born again language that doesn't fit well with Lutherans, but everyone can relate to the questions of Nicodemus. Jesus tells him about the kingdom of God and he is left puzzled and says "how can these things be?" How many people wonder the same thing about baptism, about the sacraments, etc.

Nicodemus is interesting because although he is left with questions we read later that he questioned the willingness of others to condemn Jesus (John 7:50-52) and he helped Joseph of Arimathea take down the body of Christ from the cross for burial. Yet he had questions.

All of us have questions and addressing that can be helpful. I hope this is of value to you. May God be with you this Sunday as you stand before the people of God and give a witness.

Vicar in Chicago


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The dichotomy regarding "anothen" is intentional. The dichotomy is a literary device that gives John a chance to have Jesus instruct us. Getting caught up in justifying the dichotomy takes attention away from the teaching and makes the vehicle of instruction the message. Someone in SW Asia


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To Sally, if you are still posting this week.

I can identify with your struggle. Sounds like you are the guest preacher at my church. I too, am forty and preach each week to those who have been saved longer than I have been alive. (10%of my regulars are over 85 and others soon behind.)

Anyway, One tact I might take and if you are still thinking about going against your own 'workaholism' is to talk about Nic as one who keeps trying to do it himself. How can a man be born again? The reality is we don't get ourselves born the first time. We don't do it the second time either. Nic keeps trying to get to salvation himself and Jesus keeps trying to redirect his thinking. We too, I htink have to give up our idea that we get born again, we get saved, we get right with God because of something we do. We get right with God because "while we were yet sinners," while we were yet confused and trying to do it on our own, while we were yet hungering after a deeper relationhsip with God even while sitting in front of a great feast, 'while we were yet sinners...."

Peace, Avis in KY


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Some thoughts on verse 17. It seems to me that much of the preaching of my childhood was 'against' something,someone, etc... We withdrew behind the walls and windows and circled the wagons to keep out that which we condemned/deplored.We identified ourselves by what we were against. As i look around the agendas of many Christains, I find nothing has changed. In these settings one does not need to ask, ' what are you against?" One need only to stay awake. However, when asked, " What are you for?... well beyond saving the sinners9 which nmeans everone, present company excluded, then silence fills the room. I fear the church in this time is not much diferent than the church( religion) in Jesus' time. We are more concerned with setting the boundaries to find out who is In and Who is excluded, condemned than finding a way to open the gracceful doors and invite folks in to meet a savior. After all, the wind blows where it will and God can birth anyone, even those we might circle out. Paul undestood his rebirth as a gift. A gift given while he was passionately opposing the things of God. Maybe that is why he said, ' by grace you have been saved through faith...so no one can boast." A Windblown Sinner/Saint in NC


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Good postings, It occurs to me that the earth and our world is too big for us to see every corner of the kingdom. That perhaps, being born again from above is the process of seeing all things through the eyes of God. Because we are not God and we turn away from God, we need to be aware that the birth process is continual as our vision grows... sort of incomplete. I also, think acceptance of grace is one of our biggest difficultities. Acceptance changes the voices in our head, silencing them. Not sure where this is going on friday yet.... Nancy-Wi


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Greetings all,

I wanted to offer some thoughts I have been having on this passage. I hear in the words of Jesus to Nicodemus a call to look beyond or behind that which is most evident in his life. To see the reality of the kingdom beyond the perceived reality of the world. It's rather like those 3D images that were a great rage a few years ago. they were computer generated and look like a mass of swirls and dots and yet, if you adjust your eyes to see it, you will find a clear image emerging from the chaos.

I have arranged for on of these pictures to be included in our bulletin witha picture of a heart and the word love in among the dots and swirls. My sermon will suggest that we must attune our eyes to see the kingdom of love that surrounds, sometimes invisibly, in this world of ours and to strive to live in and of that kingdom.

Another point I will draw out is that if you are looking at one of these pictures and think, hope or plan to see something that is not there you are working at it in vain. The only image present among the mass of color is the one that has been put there. Likewise the only kingdom we are called to be a part of is that brought and lived out in Jesus Christ.

Blessings on your work,MK in Indiana


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As far as being a Lutheran and struggling with being born again. I believe it was Luther that said we must be born again each day. We must die to our sinful self and be born again in Christ's righteousness daily.

Sally and Avis, I know how you feel. I am a lay pastor at age 64. The church I am serving average age is older than I am. This Sunday I am picking up on the suggestion of "I Love to Tell the Story". That will be my Sermon Hymn. Nick knew the old, old story, but he was stuck in it.

Steve in IN


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I might point some of our United Methodist readers/posters to John Wesley's sermon on the second birth.

Here's a web copy: http://www.godrules.net/index.html?http://www.godrules.net/library/wsermons/wsermons45.htm&2

cut and paste then entire url...both http:s.

Wesley held that the new birth is the regeneration of an individual (which seems to be an on-going process). Regenerated eyes, ears, mind...remade to perceive the moving of the Spirit.

John near Pitts (hi Deb in the 'burgh)


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From Wesley's Sermon 45 The New Birth

5. From hence it manifestly appears, what is the nature of the new birth. It is that great change which God works in the soul when he brings it into life; when he raises it from the death of sin to the life of righteousness. It is the change wrought in the whole soul by the almighty Spirit of God when it is "created anew in Christ Jesus;" when it is "renewed after the image of God, in righteousness and true holiness;" when the love of the world is changed into the love of God; pride into humility; passion into meekness; hatred, envy, malice, into a sincere, tender, disinterested love for all mankind. In a word, it is that change whereby the earthly, sensual, devilish mind is turned into the "mind which was in Christ Jesus." This is the nature of the new birth: "So is every one that is born of the Spirit."

WOW!

John near Pitts


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Mk in Indiana Where did you find your image? Nancy-Wi


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Much has already been contributed and my addition may be too late to matter, but here goes. I think that it was the old TV program "Ben Casey" that began with the symbol for modern medicine, two snakes wrapped around a staff. How curious! Current medical thought, which is often depicted and sometimes is anti-faith when it comes to having anything to do with the outcome of a patient's healing, has a tie with this John passage. Also consider the definitions of and relationships between the following word's: salvage, salvation, and salve (The Balm of Gilead?). I find it difficult to separate the insertion of the serpent on the staff and being born from above and anew and Jesus' love for the world. Christianity is about a process of healing that can only be completed in death that moves us from death to eternal life. Born of the spirit and physical birth are distinctly different concepts like the difference between insight and sight (a solid point that was made in the Disciple 4 Bible Study for those familiar with United Methodist literature). One final thought. Is it not ironic that often those radically conservative preachers (definitely not Billy Graham) preach John 3:16 but forget 3:17 and spend time condemning various groups for their great sins. TN Mack


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Much has already been contributed and my addition may be too late to matter, but here goes. I think that it was the old TV program "Ben Casey" that began with the symbol for modern medicine, two snakes wrapped around a staff. How curious! Current medical thought, which is often depicted and sometimes is anti-faith when it comes to having anything to do with the outcome of a patient's healing, has a tie with this John passage. Also consider the definitions of and relationships between the following word's: salvage, salvation, and salve (The Balm of Gilead?). I find it difficult to separate the insertion of the serpent on the staff and being born from above and anew and Jesus' love for the world. Christianity is about a process of healing that can only be completed in death that moves us from death to eternal life. Born of the spirit and physical birth are distinctly different concepts like the difference between insight and sight (a solid point that was made in the Disciple 4 Bible Study for those familiar with United Methodist literature). One final thought. Is it not ironic that often those radically conservative preachers (definitely not Billy Graham) preach John 3:16 but forget 3:17 and spend time condemning various groups for their great sins. TN Mack


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Those of you who are preaching to older congregations may want to mention the Genesis text verse 4b where it points out that Abraham was 75 years old when he left his home to venture out into new territory. Here is an older person willing to start a new life, and in a sense, be born again, start over as God's servant.

Sometimes our life circumstances force us to see the world with new eyes. People said "Nothing will ever be the same again" after 9/11, because they saw the world with new eyes. I know older people who give up living after the death of a loved one. When we can let go and start over, and discover new blessings in life, that is like being born again. Blessed are those who get new eyes to see, and new energy to live for God, (even without the trauma!) I'm sure you have examples in your congregations. God is always giving us chances to start new. Being born again is not a one time deal.

It's getting late... I got to start writing!!! DGinNYC


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The experience of re-birth

I found this on the Pastoral illustrations wed site. I don't remember who wrote it, but I found the variety of understandings helpful as I talk about being "born again" this weekend.

"Noted evangelist Billy Graham says that he can point back to a definite time in his life when he experienced conversion. But his wife, Ruth, says that she grew gradually into the faith and can point to no definite starting point. Her experience is similar to the testimony of Count Von Zinzendorf to John Wesley. When Wesley asked him if he knew when he was saved, he replied, "I have always been saved!" A very famous churchman's reply to the same question was, "I was saved nearly two thousand years ago, on a hill called Golgotha, outside the city of Jerusalem." And this is the main point of the biblical witness: Our Salvation was accomplished nearly two thousand years ago in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, the one true Son of God. The meaning that this past event has for us today, our response to that event, and our willingness to believe is crucial for us. It doesn't matter so much when we come to believe as it does that we believe."

Pr.del in IA


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LET me add something--

While we are talking about Nicodemus coming at night, whatever his motive, it is ironic that he comes in the dark and is in the dark concerning what Christ was saying.

Born again or born from above. While the idea of being born again or reborn, Christ, from the get-go, is directing Nicodemus' attention to God and away from himself (Nick) It is obvilous that Nicodemus has misunderstood this and thinks this rebirth is something he has to do and he has no clue as to how to go about it. "Can a man enter...etc," There is a reason Christ insists on saying born from above. He's trying to get Nic to look up.

Water and Spirit. I'm not sure water means that first natural birth. If you read the discussion carefully, Nicodemus is using the language and imagery of the flesh or the world--physical signs, the womb, physically reborn, etc. Christ is using the language and imagery of the Spirit-- born from above, wind and Spirit. Just keep your mind and heart open, This just could mean that at baptism, one receives the Holy Spirit. At least, that is what is in the United Methodist liturgy concerning aptism. The truth is, we don't have a schedule for the Holy Spirit. This could be one experience. baptism and receiving the Holy SPirit. This could be two experiences. This could be a reversal of 2 experiences. Saul in Acts 9 was filled with the Holy Spirit and was baptized. The Samaritans in Acts 8 were baptized and then later received the Holy Spirit.

May we continually be surprised like Nicodemus AND may we enjoy it

STAN in TN

'


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Anybody else miss knowing when people post? Bring back the dates, Frank!

kbc persnickety in sc


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Stan in TN, Yes, it seems that what Jesus says can be taken 2 ways but Nicodemus only gets the physical, not the metaphorical. Both births require water and spirit(ruah/pnuema).

Remember the word for spirit is also the word for breath and wind. The Jews considered that life began when the first breath was drawn, just as God made the little mud man and breathed life into him. So if a baby comes through the waters of the womb but does not draw breath it isn't alive. So too, when a person comes through the waters of baptism but doesn't recieve the spirit there is not life.

Eric in KS noted the difference between bearing and begetting. Flesh can bear flesh but without the begetting from above, the giver of life, the Spirit, neither the first nor second birth is complete.

I wonder if Nicodemus was one of those good Scribes or Pharissees that went out to John for baptism, about which he complained were a brood of vipers. I wonder if Nic was now doubting the effects of the baptism and Jesus was saying to him, "You got the water, now let the Spirit complete the work in bringing you to life." All speculation, but it just might preach to a bunch of as yet stillborn Christians sitting in the pews. Sometimes I have to look hard to see if they're breathing. tom in TN(USA) P.S. always good to here from fellow Tennesseeans. We're pretty well represented here among the desperate. Hmmm...


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What I wonder is this: How does a newborn child see and experience the world? How does a newborn child of God see and experience the world? Nicodemus had old eyes. Is that why he could not "see" the Kingdom?


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What I wonder is this: How does a newborn child see and experience the world? How does a newborn child of God see and experience the world? Nicodemus had old eyes. Is that why he could not "see" the Kingdom?


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What I wonder is this: How does a newborn child see and experience the world? How does a newborn child of God see and experience the world? Nicodemus had old eyes. Is that why he could not "see" the Kingdom?


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I too miss the dates and times. It gives perspective to the dialogue.

LaffChap


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Nicodemus wanted/needed to fit Jesus' premise into his parameters. We still try to do that. Tell me what you are about Jesus, but I need to fit it into my frame of reference.--revpam


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I remember when we traveled to Jordan and looked at the "Promised Land" as supposedly seen by Moses... there at the site of a Roman Catholic church was a cross made from snakes. Very powerful.--Revpam


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another vote here for dates and times! ks in va


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Thanks to kbc for the discussion which birthed this bit of dialogue.

Isn't this the question of Nicodemus? What's all this got to do with anything? How can this be????

So what does Jesus say ... "Hey man, you can't get this stuff until you get to that place where you no longer have control, where you no longer can live in your head, where you can no longer hide behind your academic laurels and your certain knowledge of what and what is not the "proof of God." No man, you gotta go where you don't want to go ... you gotta be born again, like a little kid. Into that place where you have no power, no choice, no hope, no sense of who you are. Into that place where you are going to feel like a damn fool.

That's where you have to go man, because until you get there, that place where you have no other options, that place where you can't continue to kid yourself that you have the power to find yourself, then you'll never get it.

You need to go to a place where a kid with cystic fibrosis reaches out to homeless folks and smiles explode into the place where only frowns existed. You need to go to a place where a young brutal thug stands in front of a bunch of other prisoners and cries because he has finally been loved after never having been loved before. You need to go to a place where a woman in a wheel chair looks upon a brilliant young seminarian and tells him today is a good day, not because it is good or bad but simply because it is God's. You need to go to that place where your explanations no longer make sense, where your definition of the world no longer has relevance, where all those answers that you knew before, fall about your feet like so much brittle chaff.

Then, Nicodemus, when you realize you are at that place, in that space where all of your answers of what is and what is not no longer matter, when all you can do is cry out to God, then the impossible can explode, then you might know what love can do. Then, my friend Nicodemus, then God's child Nicodemus, you will live."

Like Nicodemus, we meet Jesus not really expecting for anything outside of our explanation to transpire … but if we open ourselves to new birth, to the impossible possibility ... we discover not just ourselves, not just the mystery, but eternity.

Thanks kbc, thanks my sister. Now I really can go to bed.

Shalom my friends,

Nail-Bender in NC


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I thought I was the only one that missed the dates. It really helps when I read this site daily, just to be able to scroll the the last date and time I read. I don't think the times were always super accurate, but at least it gave us some concept. Time is a premium if we are going to do the work of the kingdom. By the way, and this will probably have to go on next week, or maybe it should go on the discussion site: Does anyone else ever lie in bed at night and think of what all you did NOT have time to do that day? Wish you would have had time for one more visit, or to read some in that new book you bought at Cokesbury, or to write encouragement notes? It is already Sunday. Maybe no one will read this. Oh well, I am just musing. The Charge!


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I had to giggle a bit when I read the previous post [at 6:30am on Sunday morning] having gotten out of bed at 5am because I could not sleep, thinking about too many things both done and yet to be done. Actually I had gone to bed unusually early and was well into a good sleep rhythm, until my brother-n-love called us from New Zealand at 10:45pm our time to check in and tell us about his trip. I am glad he called, but, oh, it opened the door a big enough crack to let my demons of sleeplessness in. I have learned that when I can't shut off my mind, it helps to get up and do something different --anything different-- whether it is surfing the net, reading, playing solitaire or watching TV. Meditative/contemplative prayer works too [like breathing the name Jesus or Yahweh or Spirit over and over, inhale on first syllable, exhale on second] but NOT prayer about specific concerns, people, etc. because those prayers tend to lead me into some sort of action, one that is not usually appropriate at "dark thirty am." And of course, if it something for which I need comfort, I do wake my partner ... but only under rare circumstance as she needs her sleep. AhHa! One explanation for "Nick at nite" I don't recall seeing --maybe he was an insomniac!!!! Maybe that is the angle for today's sermon --what are the things that keep us awake at night and are those "re-birth" pangs ...? RevRake, sleepless in MI


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Regarding time stamps. I miss knowing which day folks are on.... but.... not having the bulky time stamps makes it alot easier and less paper to print it out... or paste and copy. Suggestion... if day is important to folks, simply put at end of your note....eg... revpam, 2/24


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It's early on Sunday morning, but someone may still be looking at all of this ... so here's the URL for my Lent 2A sermon:

http://www.stfrancis-ks.org/subpages/asermons/lent-2-a-rcl-2002.htm

Blessings, Eric in KS


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People who are saved and know that Jesus Christ is their Lord and Savior should be daily witnesses to unsaved individuals who don't know the Lord. It is our given responsibility as servants of God.