Date: 10 Jun 2000
Time: 15:52:58
Trinity Sunday is a good time to address something problematic about pop religion. Jesus said there is only one who is truly good, the Father. You must call no one good but the father! While Jesus was (united) one with the father, he inisted on this clear distinction. Jesus did not ask his disciples to worship him. Now there are many people calling Jesus-- God. Isn't this something that Jesus was strongly opposed to?
Is it really the same religion, when popular religion goes from calling Jesus the son of God to calling Jesus "God"? Isn't it important that we be clear that Jesus is the Son of God?
Is not this a whole different religion when you have Jesus not really praying to anyone, not really tempted and not exactly human?
Date: 11 Jun 2000
Time: 16:15:39
Since this is the appropriate time of the year, I have always been curious about the bringing of myrrh and the hundred-weight of aloes to Jesus' tomb---How would they use a hundred-weight of aloes for Jesus' body--- Isn't that an enormous amount??????
Edward in Philadelphia
Date: 11 Jun 2000
Time: 20:58:43
I am humbled by the awe expressed by Isaiah (at the time of his call, before the throne of God) and Moses (at the time of his call, before the burning bush) and the practical, prudent, careful gentleman like reaction of Nicodemus to Jesus.
We have lost our sense of wonder and amazement, we find it hard to let go, surrender, and enter into relationship.
The whole Easter-Pentecost Season has been about the gift God has given us through the death and resurrection of Christ, and we still question if it means we have to crawl back into the womb of our mother to be born again. When are we going to wake up?
tom in ga
Date: 11 Jun 2000
Time: 22:39:44
Sounds to me like you have awakened, tom in ga, if you are humbled and in awe....
Liane
Date: 11 Jun 2000
Time: 23:25:57
Liane,
Ahh, I wish it were true, but I am just as stuck as anyone else, afraid to let go, to release control, to acknowledge reality outside myself. My religiousity gets in the way of my own truth. Help.
tom in ga
Date: 12 Jun 2000
Time: 15:51:13
tom in ga I have read your contributions many times and they are always insightful, uplifting, and I sense the truth of God coming through them. If you are like me, I am right before vacation and I plan to spend a lot of time "resting in the Lord." Maybe I will never completely surrender - but I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever --- and you will also. Maybe for us "A" type personalities, we will never totally experience the awe and the mystery and the glory as is expressed in the Isaiah passage, but then again, maybe that is for us to "experience later." Keep up the good work, tom, rest in the Lord, and know that people all over this country are praying for you. God Bless. Liane
Date: 13 Jun 2000
Time: 02:27:28
I am thinking about doing something with the "visions of God" that are presented in all the texts. Certainly awe and wonder have to be a part of that as do suffering and love. Any good illustrations that might be floating around out there?
Jonesy
Date: 13 Jun 2000
Time: 13:13:30
Interesting that after Pentecost last week, the reading this week encourages us to leave in a new existence. The whole way of living is different for the baby once it is born. It needs to learn how to breath using its lungs, coming through the birth of water. This must tie in with the breath of God and baptism. Mike Resch in Devon UK
Date: 13 Jun 2000
Time: 13:14:48
Correction not leave but live Mike
Date: 13 Jun 2000
Time: 13:43:13
Just some early musings about this Sunday. In England, it’s Father’s Day this Sunday, so I’m thinking of using that as a possible link with the Trinity.
I might use Rubliev’s Icon of the Trinity, which has the Spirit drawing us into relationship with the Father through the Son. The whole purpose of Jesus’ ministry was to make the Father known, and to draw us into the relationship of love that exists within the community of the Trinity.
This gives a whole new slant on Father’s Day!
We also have an annual Folk Festival in our town this weekend, and our church has hosted a special ‘Folk Service’ for a number of years. I’m looking for a way to connect with the Folk Festival visitors, who may not be Christians. I though that I might link in the Trinity also with music and talk about chords in music ... you need three notes to make a chord, and when you use chords in music, you get harmony as well as melody. The community of the Trinity is a little like a chord, with each note contributing something distinct, yet there is unity in the whole.
It’s traditional for the preacher to sing something during the service, and I have chosen the song ‘Father we adore you, lay our lives before you, how we love you.’ The other verses continue in a similar vein ... Jesus we adore you ... Spirit we adore you.
This song can be sung in a round, and when you sing it like this, the harmonies come out clearly. It’s a really simple tune and I’m hoping that when we sing it, it will be one of those moments when people will understand at more than an intellectual level something of the beauty of the Godhead.
The other thing that’s happening is that we have some Morris dancers who will be dancing at the entrance to our church as people come in. I might use dance as an illustration of the Trinity also ... (One of the dances we have in England is dancing round a Maypole where the individual dancers hold ribbons and weave in and out to make a pattern with the ribbons.(a bit like the notes of the chord)
I realise that I’m in danger of overloading the service with too many ideas, so I’ll have to be selective. I am very fortunate in having these three things that illustrate the Trinity actually happening in the service (Father’s Day ... folk music and folk dancing). You may not have quite the same opportunities that I have, but maybe the three illustrations can provide you with some ideas.
Rev Ev in UK.
Date: 13 Jun 2000
Time: 15:33:29
tom and Liane, point of living in the SPirit is to allow awe and wonder to live side by side the mundane...to see the awe in reading the same Bible verse for the millionth time and still find something new in it. Awe in knowing that God is indeed greater and allowing Hime to be so. Truth in what both of you said....but awe and wonder are gifts given when we lest expect it.....seeing God move ...recognizing that inspit of us, through us and around us, God will move. There is a new comercial out about a car. Starts off with children making the varoom sound while playing with toy cars. Then goes to other children pplaying with bikes. swings, all making the "varoom"....the the announcer suts in with some remember and some don't....as a sports type car is driven off into the sunset or something like that. Some of remeber the awe and wonder of first meeting God, and some of us have forgotten. One thing about being born again is the sheer joy at remebering God's presence. Blessings to you both. sue in tx.
Date: 13 Jun 2000
Time: 15:33:37
tom and Liane, point of living in the SPirit is to allow awe and wonder to live side by side the mundane...to see the awe in reading the same Bible verse for the millionth time and still find something new in it. Awe in knowing that God is indeed greater and allowing Hime to be so. Truth in what both of you said....but awe and wonder are gifts given when we lest expect it.....seeing God move ...recognizing that inspit of us, through us and around us, God will move. There is a new comercial out about a car. Starts off with children making the varoom sound while playing with toy cars. Then goes to other children pplaying with bikes. swings, all making the "varoom"....the the announcer suts in with some remember and some don't....as a sports type car is driven off into the sunset or something like that. Some of remeber the awe and wonder of first meeting God, and some of us have forgotten. One thing about being born again is the sheer joy at remebering God's presence. Blessings to you both. sue in tx.
Date: 13 Jun 2000
Time: 20:13:00
Will anyone be using the Athanasian Creed in their worship on Sunday? I just pulled it out to read, since that was the ancient custom of my childhood church - read the big A once a year on Trinity. I don't know about having the congregation read it, but it looks like it could be fun to do as a dramatic reading, hurriedly skipping over the parts about doing good gets you to heaven and doing evil to hell. One line jumps out at me... "he is not divided, but is one Christ. He is united because God has taken humanity into himself; he does not transform deity into humanity." So much "popular" relgion has images of us taking God into us - here is us being taken into God. Lisa
Date: 13 Jun 2000
Time: 20:23:31
To Lisa, we always use the A. Creed on Trinity Sunday. If nothing else it makes folks happy to have the Nicene Creed all the rest of the year. R in Lex.
Date: 13 Jun 2000
Time: 20:38:58
As a Disciple of Christ denominationally speaking... and a "low-church" variety at that just learning about the lectionary and using it has been an adult decision. I have found great value in Advent, Lent and an occasional Christ the King Sunday. I admit that Trinity Sunday means nothing to me. Maybe this is my aversion to the doctirne of the Trinity which I find flimsy at best and non-biblical on my bad days. What I do find interesting is the John 3:1-17 text. I love the old man (my assumption) coming at night. Engaging Jesus in real conversation. I think of all the John 3:16 signs haning from the bleachers or the end zone. I am more of a John 3:17 person myself!
Date: 13 Jun 2000
Time: 20:39:52
Oh yea... the trinitarian skeptic is Revpump in Colorado
Date: 13 Jun 2000
Time: 20:54:40
Rev Ev,
Shirley Guthrie in his classic, Christian Doctrine describes the trinity as three in a dance. We only momentarily see any one face and can most often not distinguish one from another. I sort of like the idea of God who dances.
I will also be using an short excerpt from the old Abbott and Costello routine "Who's on First." It's a wonderful way to lift out the words in the John text that have double meanings. It is also a way to suggest that this passage contains some part of the divine comedy and the eternal tragedy.
Blessings, ANN
Date: 13 Jun 2000
Time: 23:52:23
I found a sermon on this scripture that is very intriguing - allow me to share my notes...
Although we can repeat from memory John 3:16-17, most of this passage focuses on a late night talk between Jesus and Nicodemus. In it we get to see inside the heart and mind of a Pharisee. This is the only place where we see one who is struggling, doubting and longing to understand Jesus.
Maybe you've thought of Nicodemus as being courageous. I've said, "Good for you, Nicodemus! You're breaking ranks! You're trying to understand Jesus." But don't rush it. Nicodemus doesn't leave his fishing nets behind. He doesn't immediately rush off to follow Jesus. Instead, he comes to Jesus under the cover of darkness. He may be curious, but he's also tenative and confused. I can't tell why he's really there. Maybe he wants Jesus to know he's been thinking about all he's heard and seen Jesus do or say. Maybe he has no clue as to why he's there.
But, Jesus does have a clue, and starts talking about 'being born from above' and 'being born in the spirit.' But, for this practical, and instutionally taught Nicodemus, the words are hard to understand. He doesn't get it. And, Jesus seems to be disappointed that this person, who is supposed to be a spiritual leader, can't comprehend his message.
I'm not sure this was a successsful communication on the part of Jesus. After all, Nicodemus doesn't say another word after verse 9. But Jesus keeps talking. And, in the end, Nicodemus still seems to be confused. Jesus is critical of his lack of understanding. When they part, there are no words of parting. No closure. But maybe that's the point. Because, the story doesn't really end here.
John gives us some more clues (7:50 & 19:39) where Nicodemus shows up again. Nicodemus seems to need to chew on Jesus' words. But, slowly he is transformed into a disciple.
For me the story gives me hope with regards to my own transformation. We keep being told that discipleship is a one-time decision. That it comes in a flash, and transforms us forever. Wouldn't that be nice and neat? But, I think most of us are more like Nicodemus. It takes time for us to struggle through and find our own understandings. We need to test the faith.
Nicodemus had a lot of obstacles to over-come in becomming a disciple. He was wealthy, Jesus has plenty to say about riches and entering the kingdom of heaven. Nicodemus was powerful and had rank among the Jewish authorities. Jesus has plenty to say about the powerful. Nicodemus was a man of common sense. Jesus asked his disciples to be foolish. We struggle with a lot of the same obstacles. Yet, the word of God keeps working on us, helping us grow more sure and bold in the faith....
**well, that's my notes mixed in with the sermon--- you can find it on page 223 of THE ABINGDON PREACHING ANNUAL 2000 - 'Transforming a Pharisee' by Carol Cavin**
Thanks for letting me share
The Iowa Starr
Date: 14 Jun 2000
Time: 14:26:23
Hi all.
Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! to Iowa Star! for highlighting the fact that transformation / conversion / becoming a disciple and apostle is a life-long journey.
I am reminded of a quote from somewhere...
"I ain't what I oughta be, but I ain't what I used to be, and I ain't what I'm gonna be!"
Rick in Canada, eh?
Date: 14 Jun 2000
Time: 16:15:45
Thanks to you all for all the inspiration for sermons for this struggling preacher. And thanks to you ol' Trinity skeptic for writing down what I've always wondered and thought myself crazy about. Rick, the quote you used in your submission caused me to glance down at the front of my monitor where I keep a similar quote posted to remind me where I am; maybe you will find it useful as well: "I may not be the man I want to be; I may not be the man I ought to be; I may not be the man I could be; I may not be the man I can be; but, praise God, I am not the man I once was." --- Martin Luther King Well, isn't that the truth!!
Date: 14 Jun 2000
Time: 16:16:38
Thanks to you all for all the inspiration for sermons for this struggling preacher. And thanks to you ol' Trinity skeptic for writing down what I've always wondered and thought myself crazy about. Rick, the quote you used in your submission caused me to glance down at the front of my monitor where I keep a similar quote posted to remind me where I am; maybe you will find it useful as well: "I may not be the man I want to be; I may not be the man I ought to be; I may not be the man I could be; I may not be the man I can be; but, praise God, I am not the man I once was." --- Martin Luther King
Well, isn't that the truth!!
Pastor Phyl in Texas
Date: 14 Jun 2000
Time: 16:44:37
Dear Friends:
I always chuckle when I see comments or sermons repeated on this site. I know it has something to do with sending problems, but I am amused when I see entries repeated 3 times because I can tell who the trinitarians are among us! (just joking!).
To tom in ga: There are times when we become fully awake in an instant due to being startled or whatever, buit most of the time waking up in a gradual process. Your body becomes aware of the light beginning to filter into your bedroom. Your ears begin to pick up the sounds of the twittering birds long before you are fully awake. I6t is a "journey" into a fully wakeful state. You and I, and all of us, are gradually becoming more awake in Christ as we study, preach and share the Gospel. It seeps into our sleeping minds and hearts, bringing more and more awareness. Perhaps it is usually a gradual process because God knows we can't handle everything at once. It's a bit like learning to walk before we can run.
To Resch in UK: The contributor after you suggested that youmeant to say "live" instead of "leave". Perhaps you did, but to "leave" one's old way of self-centered life is to "live" in Christ.
Blessing to you all! RevIan in Québec
Date: 15 Jun 2000
Time: 02:12:16
Today is the Feast Day for Basil of Caesarea, a stout Trinitarian if ever there was one. Basil was made presbyter in the year 364, and made bishop not long thereafter. He took a strong position against the Arians.
The following quote is from Lesser Feasts and Fasts: "In his treatise, On the Holy Spirit, Basil maintained that both the language of Scripture and the faith of the Church require that the same honor, glory, and worship is to be paid to the Spirit as to the Father and the Son. It was entirely proper, he asserted, to adore God in liturgical prayer, not only with the traditional words, “Glory to the Father through the Son in the Holy Spirit;” but also with the formula, “Glory to the Father with the Son together with the Holy Spirit.”"
Let's hear it for the "3-in-1". This Sunday we will sing St. Patrick's Breastplate. It begins, "I bind unto myself today, the strong name of the Trinity, by invocation of the same, the Three in One and One in Three." It was jokingly called the paranoid Jesus song by a few in seminary, as verse 6 goes: "Christ be with me, Christ within me, Christ behind me, Christ before me, Christ beside me..."
There is mystery in God, and in the three-in-one. In my particular denomination, we claim our faith with the ancient creed of Nicea, every Sunday. It is good. But maybe I have become too comfortable with it and need to shift to the less-than-comfortable side so I can preach it....
HW in HI
Date: 15 Jun 2000
Time: 06:01:12
Born Again- When I preached this before it reminded me of each time my children were born. After the anticipation of this perfect baby, to my surprise the first one came out kinda purple and lizard looking. The second child, kinda hairy and yoda-like. They are beautiful now, but new birth always enters looking strange and unlike our greatest hopes. When ever change occurs expect the fragility and oddness of a new born child. Knowing that with nurture the change will straigten out and become a beautiful work of art. Wilmington insomniac
Date: 15 Jun 2000
Time: 13:54:11
To the perosn who was concerned about praying to Jesus as God .. and to revpump who has difficulty with the trinity,
I never used to get worked up about it .. but just recently it seems to have got more and more important to me.
Here’s one of the things that happened to get me excited about the Trinity.
Have you ever listened to talk radio? I find it an incredibly irritating station ... where the presenters seem to delight in putting down the people who call in ..... Anyway ... I was listening to talk radio a couple of years ago A man had phoned in, and told this wonderful story. As a little boy, he and his father were both fanatical football (i.e soccer!) supporters. They lived in Sheffield,(UK) and supported Sheffield Wednesday football team. On one particular occasion, there was a big match and all this little boys friends were off to see the game. At home time on the day of the big match .. their parents came to pick them up ... and of course all through the afternoon his friends had been getting very excited about going to see the match. This little boy though was pretty miserable all afternoon. He just couldn’t bear it that all his friends were going to see the match, but he wasn’t. Anyway .. home time came and all the boys dads were there, and they went off excited. The little boy’s father eventually came to pick him up ... and as he arrived at the school he told his son that he had a surprise for him .. have you guessed what ... he had got two tickets for the match ... well you can imagine how excited he was .. and together they went the match ... well that was 30 years ago ... and now ... Sheffield Wed are in the FA cup and about top meet Man U in the fourth round of the cup .... and without telling his dad, he has got them two tickets to go to that match. As a way of saying thankyou to his Dad ... 30 years later, he has done the same for his dad.
What a wonderful story ... The Talk radio presenter said to the man calling ... Andrew That is just fantastic Andrew I WORSHIP YOU!!!
Do you know, when I heard the talk radio presenter say that ...”Andrew. I worship you” I felt angry. I felt that no human being should ever say that to another human being. I really was incensed, cross.
But ... I think that’s what the early Christians would have had to get used to. They would have had to get used to worshipping a human being. Now that goes right against the grain especially for the Jews, who passionately worshipped one God, the almighty. the creator. Perhaps that’s why it said in our Gospel reading ... when they saw him ,they worshipped him ... but some doubted ...
How did the early Jewish Christians feel when they had to get used to worshipping Jesus as God ... it must have been really hard for them.
But that’s what they did ... they learned to worship Jesus as God.
See Revelation chap 5, which is focussed on Christ ...Worthy is the lamb, who was slain, to receive power and and wealth and wisdom and strength, and honour and glory and praise.
To him who sits on the throne AND TO THE LAMB (my capitals) be praise and honour and glory and power, for ever and ever.
We can spend eternity trying to understand the mystery of the Trinity ... for that is what it is ... and we’ll never grasp it ... a preacher recently wrote this
Date: 15 Jun 2000
Time: 13:57:11
sorry, there was a bit on the end of that that wasn't meant to be there.
A preacher once said this ... delete that.
Rev Ev in UK
Date: 16 Jun 2000
Time: 15:17:22
The Trinity is one of the most difficult concepts to understand. I remember in seminary systematic theology class we spent more time on that doctrine than any other.
I liked Rev Ev's story about horror at worshipping humanity and what the early Christians had to deal with. That was one of the big discussions of the early church. Who exactly is God now that we must contend with this man Jesus? The Trinity was their way of making sense of paradox. One of the biggest realizations was that Jesus is both fully human and fully divine.
Don't mix up "God" with "The Father." They aren't the same thing. "God" is "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit." We worship all three as God, not just the Father. Jesus is "God the son" or the "Son of God the Father." Jesus is most certainly God.
Thanks for everyone's insights on this lectionary and on all the others in the past year. I'm a better preacher thanks to you all!
Rev Steph in MD
Date: 17 Jun 2000
Time: 03:30:14
Friday is late to get in on the discussion, but... For me doctrines must speak to experience or what would be their significance? I see the Trinity of be three experiences we have of God or three "knowings" of God--all of the same God. We know God in creation/we know God in Jesus' life/we know God present with us. Three experiences of knowing one God. bc in MO
Date: 17 Jun 2000
Time: 03:30:22
Friday is late to get in on the discussion, but... For me doctrines must speak to experience or what would be their significance? I see the Trinity of be three experiences we have of God or three "knowings" of God--all of the same God. We know God in creation/we know God in Jesus' life/we know God present with us. Three experiences of knowing one God. bc in MO
Date: 17 Jun 2000
Time: 16:21:20
It might be better to say that we know God in three ways...So far. The weakness of the "Trinity of God" is that it suggests we have God sewn up now. There is more yet to know. Of this I am sure.
ton in ga makes a good point about Nicodemus' regard for Jesus, as opposed to Isaiah's experience of God. If we focus on Jesus alone, we may lose some of the awe, yet if we tremble before God the high and lifted up, we lose the tenderness of God seen in Jesus. If we don't acknowledge the presence of God and Christ in the Spirit, then holiness is far removed in space and time. But if we acknowledge God above us, glorious and mighty; God among us, tender and caring; God within us, leading and enlightening, then we begin to see the fullness of God. But there is more. Of this I am sure.
A frequently used illustration of the trinity is "To my parents I am a child, to my wife I am a husband, to my children I am a father, three roles in one Me. I saw my father as my father to me and my brothers and also as my mother's husband. I saw him as a sibling to his brothers and sisters(and in that, a glimpse of him as a son, though his parents were gone before my birth).I saw him as an employee when in the presence of his employers and a helper to his customers. These were the roles I saw Dad in day to day. But occasionally I saw him to himself, between duties to others,and got a peek at Ed, as he saw himself, smiling, gazing at something far away as he pored over the latest hang-glider plans in Popular Science magazine(well past middle age when this fad came along). We see God in several ways, but I wonder how God sees God's own self? Ther is more to God than I can know now, of that I am sure! tom in TN(USA)
Date: 17 Jun 2000
Time: 16:29:05
Reprinted with corrections.
It might be better to say that we know God in three ways...So far. The weakness of the "Trinity of God" is that it suggests we have God all sewn up now. There is more yet to know. Of this I am sure.
tom in ga makes a good point about Nicodemus' regard for Jesus, as opposed to Isaiah's experience of God. If we focus on Jesus alone, we may lose some of the awe, yet if we only tremble before God the high and lifted up, we lose the tenderness of God seen in Jesus. If we don't acknowledge the presence of God and Christ in the Spirit, then holiness is far removed in space and time. But if we acknowledge God above us, glorious and mighty; God among us, tender and caring; God within us, leading and enlightening, then we begin to see the fullness of God. But there is more. Of this I am sure.
A frequently used illustration of the trinity is "To my parents I am a child, to my wife I am a husband, to my children I am a father, three roles in one Me." I saw Dad as a father to me and my brothers and also as my mother's husband. I saw him as a sibling to his brothers and sisters(and in that, a glimpse of him as a son, though his parents were gone before my birth).I saw him as an employee when in the presence of his employers and a helper to his customers. These were the roles I saw Dad in day to day. But occasionally I saw him to himself, between duties to others,and got a peek at Ed, as he saw himself, smiling, gazing at something far away as he pored over the latest hang-glider plans in Popular Science magazine(well past middle age when this fad came along). I too am many things to many people, allof that and more to myself.
We see God in several ways, but I wonder how God sees God's own self? Ther is more to God than I can know now, of that I am sure! tom in TN(USA)
Date: 18 Jun 2000
Time: 00:48:19
for a female pastor today's scripture is exciting in view of the S Baptist's interpretation of Paul's letter to the Corinthians. Nicodemus hears Jesus say you must be born again and interprets him literally. I guess that's not the last time that happened.
Date: 18 Jun 2000
Time: 01:28:41
Rev EK in UK, and all,
I am struck by your reference to "The Trinity" by Rublev, and as delighted as I am by the imagery, if it is the same Ikon that I know, I am a tad confused.
Perhaps you can drop a note to me at hammondj@netscape.net and let me know more? The Icon I know called "Trinity" from Rublev shows three "angels" (in what appears to be female form, I might add), in equal juxtaposition, one to another, and supposedly references the angels who appeared to Abraham and Sarah, and who, some say, represent God Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Are you referencing the same thing? Another? Please do let me know. Thanks much.
Jim