Date: 4/12/2004
Time: 11:04:49 AM
In the text last week on John 20, I was feeling frustrated with CEOs. I claimed that Jesus didn't ask "where were Thomas?" and ended with the question: "Was it the responsibility of the pastor to visit everyone who miss church, or is that the responsibility of every single believer?"
I think God is pointing me to the answer in this week reading. The presupposition needed here is that Peter representing the leaders of God's community. And as leaders, I am charged with 3 things: 1) Feed His lambs, 2) Tend His sheep, and 3) Feed His sheep.
At first glance, it looks like the same command was repeated three times. But there are a few observations I can pick out from it.
First and foremost, all three charges were stated as responses to our love (in both form phileo and agapeo) to Jesus. Ministry are done out of my love to God, and not even out of my love to people. Loving people is hard, for Jesus want us to love even the unloveable. So, if only when I can love Jesus enough to see Him in the people I am ministered too, I then will be able to love people adequately.
Secondly, I think there is a prioritized order for ministry. It's not a coincident that "Feed my lambs" come first. Lambs are new-born weaklings who could not even help themselves even with their own survivals instinct yet. My number focus therefore must be on the new converts, to help them established in the faith. Now, it is obvious that sometimes we may not be able to discern correctly who is the "new converts", for the mere outward acts and rituals of professing the faith may not be adequately reflect the inward belief. But that should not be an excuse for not keep this task in top focus.
The second priority is to "Tend my sheep" (literally "Shepherd my sheep"). Here one can take the "shepherd" thread and run a trace of what the word meant according to John, but I am going for a simplistic explaination of shepherding meant managing and leading the flock (even though Jesus didn't say "shepherd my flock", but the "flock" was a root in the Gk. word for "shepherd"). So, shepherding the flock for me meant more of a corporate concern than for the individuals, (eventhough we will care for the individuals, but it should be done out of the concern for the larger group).
Finally, there is the priority of "Feeding my sheep", which Peter and friends later translated it as "It would not be right for us to neglect the ministry of the word of God in order to wait on tables... [we] will give our attention to prayer and the ministry of the word." (Acts 6)
With this priorized order in mind, I wondered what Jesus had in mind for Peter when He concluded, "Very truly, I tell you, when you were younger, you used to fasten your own belt and to go wherever you wished. But when you grow old, you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will fasten a belt around you and take you where you do not wish to go... Follow me." The text indicated that it meant what kind of death Peter would endure, but I wondered if it also meant that as we grow more matured in leadership, we will also grow in obedience to Christ in serving, keep our focus on following Christ, and not so much on "where I do not wish to go" or not...
Once again, this is kind of a digression on the text which may have little significant to the congregation. But if God were to feed the sheep in the congregation, he would have to deal with me as the shepherd first.
To the general congregation, perhaps the following settings should be taken into consideration: First, even after the historical resurrection, many of us still have no clue what to do with it. "I am going fishing" were the responses from Jesus's core team, after the most fantastic demonstration of His power. Jesus left them, and the void of directional purpose can be felt here. "That night they caught nothing" were the results they are left with (possible tie in with Luke 5 passage a couple of months ago, but that is out of John's context).
There is a gap between knowing the historical resurrection and experiencing that same power of the resurrection in our lives. According to the text here, to experience the resurrection one (especially the shepherd) must "follow Jesus" by "lay down their lives". Because if we don't, how could we "take it up again" (Jn.10)?
O the Chief Shepherd, teach me to love you as a shepherd apprentice. Help me to schedule my priorities according to your guideline of nuture the lambs, tending the flock and feed the sheep.
Coho, Midway City.
Date: 4/12/2004
Time: 8:23:00 PM
CEO"s make lots of money! Can't be us! :-> Nancy-Wi
Date: 4/16/2004
Time: 6:54:50 AM
I'll just be coming back from a trip this week, and so I've booked a Gideon speaker. It's my little "thing" that the Gideon speech does not take the place of the sermon, but here's what I'm thinking about a tie-in.
Loving Jesus, tending and feeding his sheep" - with the word of God. OK, not too profound, but it would make a good entrypoint for a reflection on the importance of our own study of God's word. *** And the sharing of it *** which is where many of us fall short. In my humble assessment, and from my judgmental side, I find the barely-interested participation in Bible studies to be directly related to churches in decline. Like, for example, the one I'm serving now.
Sally in GA
Date: 4/16/2004
Time: 10:59:43 AM
The risen Christ blesses his followers, especially Peter, and welcomes them to a meal of fellowship and forgiveness.
Date: 4/16/2004
Time: 11:06:29 AM
This story of overfull nets, the last miracle story in the gospel of John, echoes with the story of overflowing jars of wine, the first miracle story in this gospel (the wedding at Cana, 2.1-11). The fourth evangelist brackets the story of Jesus with these two miracle stories. Both stories reveal the true identity of Jesus to his followers and both stories proclaim the abundance of God's grace. These are the same themes of the story of the feeding of the five thousand (John 6), which is also echoed in Jesus' feeding the disciples breakfast on the beach.
The mention of a charcoal fire for cooking the breakfast meal is an interesting detail. The last time such a fire is mentioned in John's gospel, Peter is warming his hands over one as he denies knowing Jesus (John 18.18, 25). In John 13.36-38, Jesus had foretold that Peter would make those denials. How the grace must wash over Peter when Jesus gives him three opportunities to "undo" those denials by declaring his love.
Jesus tells Peter what it will mean to live out that love: to feed or tend Jesus' sheep. How has Jesus fed the disciples? By drawing them near to the realm of God through revealing the abundance of God's grace and mercy to them. Peter and the other disciples are to draw other near to the realm of God just as they drew in the big lot of fish. As one of the founders of the early church, Peter will share in Christ's work even to the point of his death by martyrdom, which is described at the end of this reading as something that Jesus also predicts (vv. 18-19).
Jesus' call to Peter at the end of this story, "Follow me" (v. 19b), is a call to all of us as well. If we allow ourselves to be directed by Jesus, putting our nets on the right side of the boat, we will be fed by encounters with God's abundance. We will be empowered to live out our love for Christ through love for others.
Date: 4/16/2004
Time: 11:13:51 AM
Spiritual gifts assessments can be useful tools for helping Christians to discern vocation, their call in the church. Yet, these calculated and quantifiable means of assessing spiritual suitability, for all of their usefulness, may fly in the face of this day's calling of both Simon Peter and Saul.
"You've got the job!" says God to each.
"He's totally unqualified!" assess the onlookers.
"Noted," says God. "Oh, and by the way ... this will not be easy."
Who is called? Today's texts make it clear that God's criteria in assessing spiritual gifts challenge our own.
Position: Model Missionary to the Gentiles. Appointee: Saul. Previous work history: Hunter, of Christians. Personal attributes: Tenacious. Well-connected.
Position: Shepherd of Jesus' Sheep. Appointee: Simon Peter. Previous work history: Fisherman, none too successful. Personal attributes: Cowardice. Modesty.
The bad news in today's texts is that our reliable tools for measuring spiritual suitability, as well as our own preconceptions, are called into question. The good news is that we clearly see, in light of God's seemingly illogical assessment standards, that we too have a place in God's work force. It is not our worthiness that readies us for the call; it is God's pronouncement.
Yet, if we are called to that for which we are unqualified, what are we to be doing? Perhaps the task performed is secondary to the message conveyed with our lives. What shall this message be?
"See!" our lives announce, "In our very unworthiness, you are seeing in your midst the saving and redeeming grace of God. To the one seated on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!"
Date: 4/17/2004
Time: 8:46:06 AM
This is off subject but the virus spreaders have a new trick.. I recieved an email that the first attachment was clean but the second was not. Just a heads up. Nancy-Wi
Date: 4/17/2004
Time: 5:32:51 PM
putting clothes on to jump into the sea!!!!?? Is it me or does that sound odd? storyteller
Date: 4/18/2004
Time: 12:42:37 PM
There are two different words for Love being used here. Agape and philios. Jesus asks Peter do you agape me, and Peter replies that he philios Jesus. This is repeated. The third time Jesus asks if Peter philios him, and Peter replies that he philios Jesus. Fellowshipping love and brotherly love.
Date: 4/19/2004
Time: 4:30:41 AM
Storyteller... not odd at all (to put on his clothes). Galillean fishermen often worked in the nude (or in only a breechcloth). It would have been rude to appear before anyone, especially the Risen Lord, in such a state of undress. The boat was probably in wading-depth water, so putting on a tunic to wade to the shore and meet Jesus was simply good manners.
Blessings, Eric in OH
Date: 4/19/2004
Time: 5:21:29 AM
Somehow I think of some Dali paintings as I read the 21st chapter of John. (As far as I know, he never painted the scene described.) THe images are rushed, run together, confusing, and yet blend to leave an image of transcendence. I think that the thing that makes me think of Dali is the use of "light" in the passage. They see Jesus first, but he is next to a fire. Normally, the fire would shine through the night and catch their eyes. But here, the fire is secondary.
And they did not recognize Jesus. The disciple who Jesus loved says "It is the Lord." THe other disciples seem to want to ask "who are you" but they don't because they "know." (It's interesting in the list of disciples, the sons of Zebedee are mentioned but not by name. THe disciple who Jesus loved was present. This puts him in this group of seven, and we know it's not Peter.)
Jesus took THE bread. Normally we would think of "Jesus took bread". THE bread makes this sound sacramental.
The interplay between agape and philos seems to me to have Jesus ask for something Peter will not or cannot give. Finally, Jesus asks for that which Peter says he can give. Some commentators downplay the difference between the two, however to me, agape is the goal and philos is best that most of us can do on our own.
I find it interesting that physical therapists use belts to "handle" patients. THe first time that I saw it in the hospital, I immediately thought of John 21. I know it's not what the author was saying, but it would do well for all of us to remember that even if we are not going to be crucified, there is coming a time when we cannot care for ourselves, no matter how self-sufficient we feel right now. I've had two parishioners so far this year suffer stokes-- one 51 year old and one 64 year old. One was a charge nurse for a major hospital. THe other is a gentleman farmer who most would think of as a self made man. The image of having a belt placed around them and being led where they do not want to go is going to be a very difficult one for the congregation not to see.
Anyway, a lot of images that all run together. Should be an interesting week.
West Texas Presbyterian
Date: 4/19/2004
Time: 7:22:39 AM
G.R. Beasley-Murray says that entirely too much has been made here of the two words for love, phileoand agapao, since the two terms seem to be interchangeable in this Gospel. For example: John 3.16 (agapao) and 16.27 (phileo) of God's love for humankind; 3.35 (agapao) and 5.20 (phileo) of God's love for the Son; 11.3 (phileo) and 11.5 (agapao) of Jesus' love for persons; 13.34 (agapao) and 15.19 (phileo) of love between human beings; and 8.42 (agapao) and 16.27 (phileo) of the love of people for Jesus. The distinction here, then, in all likelihood is purely a matter of stylistic variation.
Date: 4/19/2004
Time: 8:17:07 AM
I'm in the process of developing something called a Hospitality Ministry Team (our congregation no longer has committees, we have ministry teams) and I'm thinking about using this pericope to advocate such a ministry. It seems to fit well with the theme.
Feeding, tending and nurturing God's sheep is a call to all who follow Jesus. And along those lines, we welcome strangers. Our hospitality team will be trained to look for visitors, introduce themselves, sit with the newcomer, help them through our (liturgical) worship service (including juggling hymnals, bulletins and inserts), introduce the to others (including me, the pastor), help them find things like the guestbook and restrooms, and invite them to return. It is hoped that this will begin to create relationships and will give visitors a "friend" within the congregation and encourage visitors to return.
It seems to me that, if we truly love Jesus, we are willing to welcome others into his house! And in welcoming them, we feed and nurture them.
Pastor in PA
Date: 4/19/2004
Time: 5:11:38 PM
The use of both agapao and phileo may be only a stylistic variation, but it speaks to me anyway. As West Texas Presbyterian points out, Jesus asks for something from Peter. Do you belong to my fellowship, will you commune with me? Peter answers that he loves Jesus like a brother. He will stick by Jesus through thick and thin (heard that before?) and that's what he has to offer. Jesus tries again. Will you and I be in a relationship that goes beyond any you've ever known before? Peter replies he will keep Jesus as a brother.
Brotherly love is a great thing. We need more of it. But in the Christian community we need to have brotherly/sisterly love for ALL people, and a special Christ-centered fellowship with other Christians. As open as we are to the rest of the world, we still have that bond, the Sacraments of Baptism and Communion (your water and bread images here in this story, perhaps??) that are stronger even than brotherly/sisterly love. Jesus said that he would split families over the issue of who Jesus is; but the Christian community is made closer because of who Jesus is.
Peter either doesn't have the concept of agape in his head yet (and that is no slam of Peter - probably nobody did yet) or he is saying that he simply does not have what Jesus is asking for. Right now, the best Peter will promise Jesus (for fear of going back on his word yet again??) is that he will love Jesus in a close, fraternal bond. And Jesus, ever willing to meet us where we are in our faith walk, decides this is enough for now. Later, after Pentecost, Peter may be able to make a different commitment. But for now, Jesus asks him to love the people and thereby love Jesus.
Our relationships with Jesus may need deepening, but Jesus will not reject whatever we offer in love.
Early week musings that may or may not make their way into my final thoughts. And yes, I know the words for love go beyond the limited use I have put them to here!
Thank you WTx Presbyterian for this direction.
KHC
Date: 4/20/2004
Time: 5:57:00 AM
I think what Beasley-Murray is saying is don't stretch for something that's not there. Agapao and phileo are used interchangably throughout John so to suddenly place some deep meaning on the use of two different words that the author never intended might be reading something into the text that's not really there. Other commentators agree that placing some profound meaning on the use of two different words isn't necessarily warranted.
Shalom
Date: 4/20/2004
Time: 6:09:37 AM
I would respectfully disagree with Beasley-Murray's opinion. While it is true that Agapao and Phileo may be used interchangeable through out John, I don't think it would be the case this time. Within such a small pericope, and variations should be deemed intentional and not interchangeable. Otherwise, we might as well combine other stylistic variations such as lamb/sheep, feeding/tending as well.
(But ofcourse, I should be argued against such opinion, for I picked those up in my textual analysis any way)
[Big Grin]
Coho, Midway City.
Date: 4/20/2004
Time: 8:44:53 AM
Henri Nouwen uses the "being led by the belt" text in his reflection on the change in his ministry. He was living a fine life as a university lecturer, surrounded by the best and brightest; then God called him to be the pastor of severely handicapped people at L'Arche. He certainly felt he was being led where he did not want to go! and yet that move led to a more profound spirituality, greater love and deeper service. How many of us have been led where we would not otherwise have chosen to go? (and here I'm thinking especially of you, Sally, with your struggling congregation...)
LF
Date: 4/20/2004
Time: 9:06:47 AM
KHC,
I appreciate your comments on this.(As well as W.Texas Presbyterian too.) It does make a huge difference to know what Jesus is asking of Peter, and to know that Peter is answering with what is in his heart. It goes along with my thinking about where my own congregation is, and where I often am too, in needing to love Jesus more than I do. All the spiritual gift inventories or whatever ministry tricks we may have won't amount to anything if our love of Jesus isn't first and foremost in our lives. I think verse 18 has to be one of the most powerful passages in scripture, that there will come a time in our lives when someone else will come a put a belt around us and take us where we don't wish to go. That passage followed by "Follow me. in my way of thinking is the whole gist of this passage. How much do we love Jesus? Enough to follow him to the cross?
Susan in Wa.
Date: 4/20/2004
Time: 10:20:33 AM
I wish all of this chapter were included in this week's lectionary reading. I'm thinking along the lines of "After The Parade" -- after all the planning and preparation for the wedding and the big day has arrived, then there is a blues time of adjusting to living with someone who squeezes the toothpaste tube differently. After all the anticipation of 9 months of waiting and the baby has finally arrived, then there is a post-partum blues time. After all the planning for the 4th of July parade and fireworks, who's going to clean up all that mess from the graffitti and horses. After all the excitement of HE IS ALIVE!!!, now what. After all the fanfare and festivity of Sunrise Service and Easter morning, what do we do now? Back to fishing just like usual, just like we did before? No, Jesus comes again and points us in the direction of service, not looking to the right or the left at the "others" who are doing it differently, but following Jesus' commands to feed His sheep. ps in or
Date: 4/20/2004
Time: 10:48:51 AM
One of my scripture professors counted all the good things Jesus did for others in the gospels and he came up with 153 of them. I've never had the time or whatever to count myself. Have you? If this is true, what a wonderful way to reveal the number of Christian acts Jesus accomplished in his public ministry as he bows out to let the early Church take over for him. Any other take on the number 153 fish? Why would the number matter? Pax, old priest in Iowa
Date: 4/20/2004
Time: 11:30:09 AM
Question: Does anyone know the number of nations or countries that were in existance at the time of Christ? I thought I was once told that it was 153, the same number as fish which were in the net. If so, this miricle is one that demonstrates the universal (note not universalism) themes of God's love and purpose for the world. Grace and Peace, Badlands Paul
Date: 4/20/2004
Time: 2:10:34 PM
I'm with Coho in Midway City. John didn't use any word without a reason. It's the best thought out book in the Bible. There is something to be found in his use of two different Greek words.
Date: 4/20/2004
Time: 2:28:17 PM
How about this thought...The Williams Translation notes that the pronoun in the phrase "do you love me more than THESE" in Greek always referred to things. I think the question to Peter is "Hey, fisherman, will you give yourself to my call the way you gave yourself to fishing?" Fishermen may find that a challenge. DaRevUMCinSCIA
Date: 4/20/2004
Time: 4:09:04 PM
Maybe the author uses agape and phileo because they are both essential, not simply to have a different way of saying love.
Max in NC
Date: 4/20/2004
Time: 6:02:43 PM
I don't post often. I usually just read and learn from all of you. I truly do appreciate each entry. You folks are often inspirational. But this time I think that John says that there are 153 fish because there are 153 fish. No secret code. No mysterious message. Why make more of something than is there? jm in NC
Date: 4/21/2004
Time: 4:57:00 AM
I see a theme in all of this weeks Scriptures: Overcoming and Reconciliation. Peter reconciled at breakfast on the beach and Paul on the Damascus Road. Finally, the Slain Lamb who overcame the sin of the world and is glorified in heaven. Ps 30 - Verse 1: "I will extol you, O LORD, for you have drawn me up..." Verse 5: "....Weeping may linger for the night, but joy comes with the morning."
BF - S. FLA
Date: 4/21/2004
Time: 5:06:20 AM
Much has been made of Jesus coming to the disciples just as their lives were returning to "normal." It seems to me that one of the things Jesus does here is redefine what is normal. Instead of normal being what I want, when I want it....normal becomes loving and nurturing others in both body and spirit.
Nan in Pa.
Date: 4/21/2004
Time: 5:27:16 AM
Jesus keeps showing himself. Has Jesus shown himself to us lately?
Jesus keeps showing himself. To weeping Mary Magdalene, he showed himself by calling her name For some of us, the faith thang has to be personal It is only the personal that can stop the tears of grief, disappointment, …
Jesus keeps showing himself. To the fearful disciples who had locked and dead bolted themselves in a house Jesus greets them with words of Peace and breathes on them Breathing on them bringing to remembrance that first breathing upon in Genesis Jesus recreates a new bold and fearless people For some of us, the faith thang has to recreate us Taking away locking up fear. Giving us peace.
Jesus keeps showing himself. To Thomas who wanted some serious i.d Jesus shows him his hands and his side and invites him to touch Faces lie: poker faces and cosmetic slapped faces. Been there. Seen that. Words lie: Sweet words that disguise the poison. Been there. Heard that. But hands don’t lie. Hands can’t lie. You want to know the story, check out the hands. And the hands, the story, leads Thomas to say those prized words “My Lord and my God” For some of us, the faith thang comes by seeing how it pans out in reality Want to id the body of Christ? Show me your congregation’s hands.
Jesus keeps showing himself. To seven of his own fish fishing He participates in their daily living, instructing them but leaving it up to them to trust him and obey …
Still working Story teller
Ps I want to end up where Jesus asks Peter three times whether he loves him Jesus reclaims Peter three times from his three time denial shame on Maundy Thursday .... hmmmmmm an over reach?
Date: 4/21/2004
Time: 5:38:05 AM
Storyteller,
No, I don't believe it is an over-reach. It is a good tie-in to bring love in to overcome the shame.
Michelle
Date: 4/21/2004
Time: 6:57:42 AM
thanks Michelle. ...
...love overcoming shame. hmm. yeah. Could connect with what KHC had talked earlier about with the agapao and phileo conversation. Jesus asks for one thing, but with Peter's Maundy thursday shame still in the back of his throat, Peter offers Jesus what he's got. He knows himself too well at this point to make any grand promises.
Date: 4/21/2004
Time: 7:46:22 AM
Michelle and Storyteller,
Thank you so much for your thoughts. I like the love overcoming shame theme! Three times denied, three times given the chance to right himself....
There is no better way to demonstrate the depth of forgivness than to give the person who failed you some important job to do. Lost confidence, lost self-acceptance, lost sense of purpose can best be restored by somebody you respect/love saying "I need you to do something for me that is very, very important. I'm counting on you".
So, can we assume that the best way for us, today, to properly accept the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ is to go and work in his name? I think it is. In fact, it's one of my major ministry themes. We're not saved from our sins so we can get to heaven. We're saved from our sins so we can live and serve in Jesus' name, taking up our crosses and following him into some (sometimes) scary and deep waters, redeemed from our newest failings so we are empowered to go and serve some more.
So many angles for approaching this text! Thanks for all the viewpoints shared here.
KHC
Date: 4/21/2004
Time: 9:07:29 AM
There is much in this text this week to contemplate. The discussion thus far has certainly shown how complex it is to understand this text and yet, how rich the meaning of the text. The one thing that really strikes me is the tension of the text from fishing to shepherding. I'm wondering if the call of Peter and his company to become "fishers of men (people)" has now become a call to become Shepherds of the flock. The difference is the call is from hauling people in like the net with the abundance of fish to now learning to become shepherds tending flocks. Jesus nevr refers to himself as being a fisherman. Yet, he continues to call himself a shepherd. Is Jesus asking Peter and the disciples to now become his ministry in the world, that of a shepherd? Feed, tend, feed indicates care and love. The agape/philos discuss warrants noting. Yes, Peter is still smarting from his promise and denial at the Passion events. But, more importantly, Peter is emphasizing a caution. He is hurt because he feels Jesus doesn't hear him. Finally, Jesus responds so that Peter realizes, yes, Jesus does hear him. A last thought, my guess is there will be a tremdous variety of sermons written and preached this week. The message will vary with each sermon preached. I hope those who hear us will realize that we too have heard the call of Jesus "Feed, tend, feed my sheep." Lynn in Blair
Date: 4/21/2004
Time: 9:09:38 AM
If you REALLY want to focus on the number 153 see below for what has been said before... (not by me!)
The numbering of the fish proves that John was an eyewitness There were 153 species of fish in the sea (since shown to be wrong) One refers to Shem's race, three refers to Ham's race, and five refers to Japheth's race (Noah's sons) 153 is the number of people Jesus ministers to in the Gospel of John Jesus lived for 12,240 days which equals 80 x 153; and Jesus ministered for 918 days which equals 6 x 153.
Jim Dennis Bamberg
Date: 4/21/2004
Time: 9:21:05 AM
DaRevUMCinSCIA,
You suggested that "do you love me more than THESE" could be "Hey, fisherman, will you give yourself to my call the way you gave yourself to fishing?" It could also be Jesus was pointing THESE to the 153 flopping fishes on the shore as well.
As for the number 153, one of the early Greek church father thought that it was a total of 153 types of fishes in the sea, and thus making a connection with universal evangelism. "[This specific number], has given rise to all kinds of allegorical and symbolic interpretations. But probably John mentioned the number as a matter of historical detail. With a group of men fishing, the common procedure would be for them to count the fish they caught and then divide them equally among the fishermen." [The Bible Knowledge Commentary]
Coho, Midway City.
Date: 4/21/2004
Time: 9:33:56 AM
Help! I'm presiding over a baptism (infant) for the very first time this Sunday. I know it may be a little late in the week for advise, but any thoughts on how this particular text might tie into Baptism...Presbyterian style? I could use the wisdom of so many more experienced DSPers. Shalom, BB in IL
Date: 4/21/2004
Time: 10:14:44 AM
BB, Lots of ties to baptismal themes. It takes place at the sea and Peter comes through the water to get to Jesus.
THere is the issue of who comes to who. God/Jesus intitiates the process by appearing. Only then, can Peter and the other disciples respond.
The disciples trust and obey and respond to the call of the Lord (cast your net on the right side of the boat) before there is clear recognition of who it is. Even after Peter says, "It is the Lord and responds, it still looks like the rest of the disciples want to ask, "Who are you?" but they knew, kind of. It is not unlike infant baptism. We trust, obey, and respond to God's actions in an audatious manner. We baptize infants in the name of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. THis child who is being baptized-- a real baptism-- the one baptism-- the only baptism this child will every know-- doesn't have any idea what is happening right now. We baptize not because this child is good, or will be good, or even because the child is innocent. We baptize because God has come to us before we even knew who God was. We baptize because God came to people who have no hope of reconciling their lives to either God or others-- apart from grace, forgiveness, and love. Jesus comes to disciples who have appear to want to return to their old lives. Even after hearing of/experiencing the resurrection, they return to their old lives-- to fishing. The child baptized may walk a twisted road on his/her way to affirming the promises made this day. However, such a road is not less twisted than Peter's, and the story affirms that God in Christ will not be stayed from coming again and again to those who have been called.
Just the thoughts off the top of my head. West Texas Presbyterian
Date: 4/21/2004
Time: 11:08:49 AM
It is hard to say whether 153 is to be seen as a symbolic number or simply a piece of historical reminiscence, or both. If it is symbolic, it could symbolize the numerous different kinds and certainly also the large number of people that could come into the community of Jesus through evangelism. There is some evidence to suggest that some ancient zoologists thought there were about 153 kinds of fish in the world (Though Jerome cites Oppian as listing 153 kinds of fish, actually Oppian's list seems to have included 157 species). If this is alluded to, then it suggests that there would be converts from all different kinds of people. Missions would be a large success among the various peoples of the world.
Shalom
Date: 4/21/2004
Time: 11:14:04 AM
Lots of good stuff this week. I am seeing a pattern in this Gospel in how Jesus relates to his disciples and how that transfers to us. 1)Jesus comes to them. As the disciples are finishing up a night of fishing, “Just after daybreak, Jesus stood on the beach” Jesus is the one who seeks them out, Jesus is the one who draws near to them. 2)Jesus inquires about them. I like the simple way the Living Bible puts it, “Any fish boys?” Jesus is interested in what they are doing, in the chores, work or job that they are doing. 3)Jesus helps them. He tells the disciples to, “Cast the net to the right side of the boat...” and then Jesus provides them with a catch. 4)Jesus welcomes them. He welcomes them around a fire, welcomes them with bread and fish. Then 5)Jesus calls them. This is a different type of call than his earlier call. The first call to follow (Chapter 1) is to believe, this second call to follow (Chapter 21) is to serve.
In the same way Jesus comes to us - baptism, Inquires about us - prayer, Helps us - gives us His Spirit, Welcomes us - Holy Communion and Calls us - to love one another.
What I like about this is God is active and we are acted upon so that we can serve in action. I think this is also a good model for evangelism or being a welcoming congregation.
Grace and Peace, Badlands Paul
Date: 4/21/2004
Time: 3:12:25 PM
Dear West Texas Presbyterian, Thank you so very much. I've been reading, brushing up on baptism, was thinking of changing from the lectionary to Gal. 3:27,28, but instead will stick to this passage as you have so wisely shown the connections, passing through the waters even not knowing...that God comes to us before we know who God is, and that it is grace, not how good we are or who we will become that seals our belonging to God and to God's community of faith. God in Christ who calls us to break down the barriers that we have built up, the wall in Israel, the walls of oppression, war, race, sexism, ageism and terrorism. It is the hope we have for this one little child, that he begins to know, by example of his parents, his community of faith, that to be part of the body of Christ means to be a Prince for Peace. Thanks again, BB in IL
Date: 4/21/2004
Time: 7:34:29 PM
I am really focusing on the connection between the seaside breakfast provided by Jesus to the frustrated fisherman and the mandate to Peter to "feed my lambs". I notice that Jesus inquired if they had any fish almost as though he wanted to purchase the catch and then from some unknown source fish was already to be served. I am thinking more and more that ministry is about cooking the meal for the hungry and discovering that with the invitation to eat comes the recognition of the risen Christ. Revatconcord
Date: 4/21/2004
Time: 7:46:08 PM
To impute the "number of nations",or the "number of good things Jesus did for others..." to the 153 fish would imply that John knew such statistics as he wrote his gospel. Doesn't sound likely. But it does sound likely that he intended the church to follow Christ's commands in order to be successful in its assigned fishing! In the same manner, last week, the church was closed in and full of fear, until Jesus came in and began giving them the assurance of his presence, and empowering the church to forgive sins.
Date: 4/22/2004
Time: 4:27:04 AM
Somebody mentioned something about Jesus showing himself to us. What about Jesus' statement, "Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe?" On the other hand, Jesus is showing himself all the time for those who see with eyes of faith. PH in OH
Date: 4/22/2004
Time: 4:43:15 AM
Thanks to all who posted this week. I had a parish Bible study last night on all 3 texts for this Sunday and many questions came up which have been addressed here. Special inerest about the number 153, and about the agape, philios varitaion. I plan to share some of what I learned from you all.
One connection that came out of our study last evening was that the first thing both Peter and Paul do in these texts when they see and recognize Jesus is to dive in - Paul to the waters of baptism, Peter to the waters of the lake.
Useful? Who knows.
Blessings, Martha in Germany
Date: 4/22/2004
Time: 6:54:13 AM
there are times when a cigar is just a cigar. and there are times when a fish is just a fish. 153 fish to a fisherman planning to sell at ten denarii a fish is $1530 denarii and not a 153 nations.
Sorry. For some reason the codebreaking is driving me nuts! Stuck in winter during spring in the north? Perhaps!
Storyteller
Date: 4/22/2004
Time: 6:54:20 AM
there are times when a cigar is just a cigar. and there are times when a fish is just a fish. 153 fish to a fisherman planning to sell at ten denarii a fish is $1530 denarii and not a 153 nations.
Sorry. For some reason the codebreaking is driving me nuts! Stuck in winter during spring in the north? Perhaps!
Storyteller
Date: 4/22/2004
Time: 6:54:33 AM
there are times when a cigar is just a cigar. and there are times when a fish is just a fish. 153 fish to a fisherman planning to sell at ten denarii a fish is $1530 denarii and not a 153 nations.
Sorry. For some reason the codebreaking is driving me nuts! Stuck in winter during spring in the north? Perhaps!
Storyteller
Date: 4/22/2004
Time: 7:59:38 AM
Hi, Here's a sermon title I'm working on, The Apprentice" Got it from an earlier post about working for Jesus. Desperate preachers, watch the emphasis on numbers if you live in a state or near a state where the lottery is played. Gen
Date: 4/22/2004
Time: 8:20:44 AM
Friends,
The hospitality theme that Pastor in PA introduced is what I am going with: "Breakfast on the Beach" is my title.
Jesus may be modeling himself what it means to feed sheep by providing true hospitality: cooking fish and bread for hungry disciples where they are and at the time of their need.
What a welcome sight that charcoal fire (and the smell of breakfast cooking) must have been. Jesus took the trouble to find where his disloyal friends were, and he chose a particularly vulnerable time --having worked hard all night and with nothing to show for it; attempting to return to normal but never really being able to leave the ghosts of Good Friday behind. --to give them the warmest hospitality they could ever imagine.
I can think of no better good news than what greeted these tired men that morning. It was forgiveness served up hot and tasty. When muscles are sore from work not performed in a while, and the the stomach growls with discomfort, Jesus is there with just what is needed. The sheep are being fed, and now Jesus asks one of them to pass on the favor. Gladness is felt all around: the feeder and the fed.
Breakfast on the Beach shows: Feeding of sheep isn't something that is to be designed around Peter's schedule, but rather it is to be fitted to the sheep's needs. Only then is it good news.
It is good news for the undeserving. This is what forgiveness means. Peter was making no move toward God, rather he was moving away like Johah who headed out to sea. For forginess to happen, the greived party, Jesus, needed to track down the guilty and provide hospitality, a sure sign of forgiveness. Not only did Jesus cook for Peter and the rest, I believe that he also ate with them, just like he did at the last supper.
Jesus stood with them in the locked room, walked with them (two, anyway) on the road, and ate with them on the beach.
There is a huge difference between cooking for the homeless and sitting down with them to eat the same food. Also, there is a difference between telling someone you forgive them and serving them at the table.
We need to get it right about Jesus. Benevolence without hospitality is meaningless. Forgiveness without coming face to face with your enemy on their own turf is empty talk. There must be a mutual relationship built. The church cannot sit back and wait for the sheep to come to it --when it is cleaned up, well fed and have it's righteousness showing.
OK. I'm on the soap box.
Steve in KS
Date: 4/22/2004
Time: 8:22:57 AM
I'm with Storyteller ... 153 fish is 153 fish. The whole idea that the number has some hidden esoteric meaning borders on the gnostic heresy. Finding codes in the Bible is just an exercise in silliness, in my humble opinion. There are all sorts of (conflicting) theories about the number 153 -- but, as Storyteller said, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and sometimes a number is just that, a number!
Blessings, Eric in OH
Date: 4/22/2004
Time: 8:30:38 AM
Shalom, BB in IL We have a baptism this week too. I am tying in the feed the lamb, calling the baby the newest lamb to feed, I use the child's name in the service. I may do as I did with the last one actually go and get the child and hold him up again. That depends on the child's disposition that day! I am also going to stress the abundance of grace in the first part, as a way of reaching out to those who come to see "the child done". I will be reminding all the sheep that God loves them! That's about as far as it gets. We do the full liturgy, and a special song for each child is sung. Nancy-Wi
Date: 4/22/2004
Time: 8:35:17 AM
Steve in KS I like your idea, I am calling mine, Little Lambs eat Scripture! I like the beach scene. Thanks to all. Math is not my bag but I do find the number thing fun. Nancy-Wi
Date: 4/22/2004
Time: 9:38:38 AM
Being a writer myself, and understand =ing that the Gospels are filled with numerical codes, I find it hard to believe that John just threw 153 into his account by accident. It seems to me that if there is any truth to the thought that ancient people assumed that there were 153 species of fish, it would be quite eye opening to a reader in John's day. John is being subtle, causing us to again think about who this 'Jesus of Nazareth' really is.
Its these numericals numbers and codes (for lack of a better word) that tighten up the loose ends of Scripture. The more I study the Bible the more and more that I become amazed at all that is going on in it. It really is quite a fascinating book and I could never be convinced that God's hand is not at work in writing it.
A New Pastor from the Jersey Shore...
Date: 4/22/2004
Time: 10:23:41 AM
could tighten up
could trivialize
Date: 4/22/2004
Time: 11:22:08 AM
The Books of Daniel and Revelation are enough encoding for me. I sure don't want to go looking other places, too.
I'm not trying to contradict anybody's interpretation of Scripture, but speaking for myself, if word gets out that 153 "means" this, there are too many people out there who will swear the Bible tells us there were 153 of something at that time, and there will be nothing, NOTHING I tell you, that will sway them from that idea. It will become part of the story, as true as the Resurrection or the conversion of Paul, and only a heretic would say it wasn't true!
I sat through an Adult Bible Study one Sunday morning where the leader was using somebody's article on Noah's Ark to tell the class why the story must be factual as told, because all the numbers, species, days, etc. all added up to something - or something like that, anyway. I have mercifully forgotten the gist of it.
KHC
Date: 4/22/2004
Time: 11:39:13 AM
Here's what the New Interpreter's Bible Commentary has to say about the 153....
"The significance of the number 'a hundred fifty-three' has intrigued interpreters since the earliest days of the church. Augustine, for example, proposed two ways of reading this number that still govern more recent interpretations. First, he proposed a mathematical explanation. The number 153 is obtained when all the integers from 1 to 17 are added together; this mathematical fact thus suggests the completeness of the number 153 itself. Second, he suggested, as had earlier patristic writers (e.g., Cyril of Alexandria), that the number should read allegorically. Augustine proposed that the number was a symbol of the Trinity, and while this specific allegorical reading is rejected by scholars, other allegorical interpretations are proposed. The most common suggestion is that the number stands for the totality of the church. In addition to these symbolic readings, some scholars propose that the number 153 preserves the memory of an eyewitness who counted the fish." (NIB, Vol. IX, p. 858)
Blessings, Eric in OH
Date: 4/22/2004
Time: 12:46:45 PM
..and one more... Great insights this week! Thanks!
My theme: last week, Jesus "resurrected" the disciples buried in fear and grief, locked in their tomb, through breathing on them.
This week: "Come and have breakfast" - the reborn are fed and strengthened; then comes the task: feed lambs, tend sheep, feed sheep.
God just doesn't expect any "new child" to jump right into service and ministry; nourishing comes first. I wonder if we as pastors harrass new folks at our churches too early; instead, maybe we should feed them first, until they are truly strenghtened and ready to go.
Germanpastor in CA
Date: 4/22/2004
Time: 1:30:29 PM
Coho,
You wrote:
" First and foremost, all three charges were stated as responses to our love (in both form phileo and agapeo) to Jesus.
MINISTRY are done out of my love to God, and not even out of my love to people.
Loving people is hard, for Jesus want us to love even the unloveable. So, if only when I can love Jesus enough to see Him in the people I am MINISTERED too, I then will be able to love people adequately."
What is the diference between loving Jesus enough to see Him in people and them in Him,
and
loving people enough to see them in Him and Him in them?
What is the difference between loving Jesus as people and loving people as Jesus?
As per Jesus, if it is hard to love people as Jesus, it must also be hard to love Jesus as people.
1 John 4 20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
Matthew 25 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we THEE an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did NOT MINISTER unto THEE?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did THE MINISTRY NOT to one of THE LEAST & THE HARDEST of these, ye did it NOT to ME.
So too, as per God, when we love God and minister to Him out of Love, we are also loving all people as Him and ministering to them out of that same Love! When we hate people, we are also hating Him as them.
Matthew 25 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done THE MINSITRY unto one of THE LEAST & THE HARDEST of these my brethren, ye have done it unto ME.
Loving Coho as Jesus and so loving Jesus as Coho,
Hardest & Easiest
Date: 4/22/2004
Time: 1:45:12 PM
God is Love.
God loves himself as all people, us and our neighbors: as father, as mother, as brother, as sister, as son and as dtr, as friend and as foe, as just and unjust, as all words and their opposites: matthew 22:36-40; 5:43-48: and so loves all people, us and our neighbors, as himself.
He loves US as Himself in order to teach us how to lvoe Him back just as He loves us by first loving ourselves just as he loves us: as all words and their opposites!
So since God loves with only Agape Love, all Love and any Love there is and we have is and can only be Agape Love, no matter what other name we call it! It is ALL the SAME Agape Love!
So there is NO difference in the quality and quantity of Agape Love between loving God as my brother and loving my brother as God!
So Phileo Love and all other kinds of Love: sexual, motherly, marital, nation, and etc are each just specific named-kinds of the same Agape Love!
QED.
Date: 4/22/2004
Time: 1:57:23 PM
More on 153:
153 is not only the Addition Factorial of 17, the 7th prime Number: 17 + 16 +...2 + 1 = 153,
it is also the Number that loves itself: the Self-Loving Number: the Number that is all wrapped up in Love of itself: for the following reason:
153 is the only number whose integers, when cubed and added, add up to... you guessed it!...
1 + 125 + 27 = 153!
Ichiban
Date: 4/22/2004
Time: 2:10:14 PM
I'm even later than usual getting started after being away for the annual BOOM interview for Probationary Elders & am just getting the chance to see what's going on here. Great discussions going on, friends. I haven't decided where I'm going yet but am focusing on Jesus' question, "Do you love me?" On a somewhat off-beat note, every time I see/hear those words I can't seem to keep a song by that title from the musical "Fiddler on the Roof" out of my mind. Tevye, befuddled by his daughters' desire to marry men they love rather than men he chooses, asks Golde: "Do you love me?...My father and my mother said we'd learn to love each other, so now I'm asking, Golde, do you love me?"
If there is a theological connection there, I'll probably find it!
Robbie in KS
Date: 4/22/2004
Time: 2:18:30 PM
21:6 He said to them,
"Cast the net to THE RIGHT SIDE of the boat, and you will find some."
So they cast it, and now they were not able to haul it in because there were so many fish."
When our priority is God's priority, the priority of 100% equal Love in our hearts for ourselves as ALL people and as God, Matthew 22:36-40, 7:12, 6:33-34
we will be in and on the RIGHT side of the boat of our hearts and minds,
and so we will not be able to but DRAW from the Love in and on the right side of our hearts, and broadCAST God's Love in the RIGHT attitude of Love in our minds as it was in the mind of Jesus!
Mark 5 15 And they come to Jesus, and see him that was possessed with the devil, and had the legion, sitting, and clothed, and IN HIS RIGHT MIND: and they were afraid.
Jeremiah 31 3 The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I DRAWN thee.
John 15 9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
Philippians 2 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
John 6 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me DRAW him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Drawn out of Water
Date: 4/22/2004
Time: 2:50:41 PM
Ah, another Fiddler on the Roof fan among us! I can see a connection between Tevye's question and the question Jesus posed to Peter....has your love grown? Or is it still the tentative, what's in it for me, where is this going? question of a young relationship?
And back to the 153 thing. I truly believe that later writers got hold of these Gospel texts and played around with them, that what we read is not necessarily what was originally written. I can't believe that John would sit down and figure out a numbers game, adding integers, counting countries, etc. Nor can I believe anybody else did later, either. Who would know the code? Who would get it? Was there some kind of generally understood meaning of the number 153 in those days? (like we can now say "9/11" and know exactly what somebody is talking about.) If the number 153 mattered for some reason in Biblical times, I think the key to understanding it is now lost to the ages.
On the other hand, was John having his "visions" at this time? Maybe this precisely detailed account is one of his more mystical moments. I don't know, I'm just thinking aloud here.
Date: 4/22/2004
Time: 3:11:12 PM
Eric in OH
Glad that you are back in the discussion. I missed seeing your comments.
Tbowen Rome,GA
Date: 4/22/2004
Time: 4:02:56 PM
I sure don't like the idea of "the disciple whom Jesus loved." What is that all about? Is it just the Johannine community saying our boy was special, perhaps more special than Peter? Did Jesus have a special love relationship with a particular disciple?
So why did the disciples go back to their normal lives if they, at all, experienced the resurrection of Jesus in Jerusalem? Surely on the long walk home they must have thought the world had changed enough for them to do something else but go back to life as normal. Did they not experience the resurrection in Jerusalem?
I suspect that every word of this passage is symbolic.
I'm thinking of going in two directions. One is talking about the various ways the resurrection could have happened - physically, spiritually or metaphorically. Paul obviously did not experience a physically resurrected Jesus. Yet his was effective. The second is about the two ways of having a transformation. Paul's was sudden. Peter's was slow. They both, perhaps, got to more or less the same place.
Brent in Pincher
Date: 4/22/2004
Time: 7:52:23 PM
Mary M. may be the main writer, influence, in the producing of the Gospel of John, and be the diciple whom Jesus loved.
Date: 4/23/2004
Time: 4:43:31 AM
Good morning from Indiana,
As I read and chewed on this passage, my attention seemed to have been drawn to the statement made by Jesus to the disciples, "Bring some of the fish that you have just caught." This got me to thinking about what we are asked to bring to our communion experiences. The disciples brought more than fish to the fire. They brought their love for Christ, their fear of the future, and their love for each other (fellowship. What else do we bring to the communbion experience. I hope to build my message around those feelings,etc. that we do bring.
Al in Indiana
Date: 4/23/2004
Time: 5:31:27 AM
Anyone suppose that the number 153 is there merely to describe more accurately the large catch? After all, it is followed by the statement, "though there were so many, the net was not torn."
Michelle
Date: 4/23/2004
Time: 9:33:21 AM
Hardest & Easiest,
Thank you for your response. I am totally agree with you there that we _should_ love people as we love Jesus and love Jesus as we love people. I am simply lamented at the short coming of myself and many others in this regard.
Dr. Thomas Stebbin shared his frustration as a missionary this way: At one point, his house was broken into and they some parts of his car, rendered it unmoveable. He could not get one of his children who had high fever to the hospital without transportation. And to make it worse, the natives started crowding the house asking for free stuff. Dr. Stebbin got so mad and angry at the people that he wanted to quit and go home. But that night, God reminded him that the Bible didn't say, "For Stebbin so love the world", but that "For God so love the world!" God further instructed him that the reason he was there not because of his love for the native, but God decided to love them through him.
That story I heard from Dr. Stebbin got me through many frustration with the people so far. Some day, perhaps I would be able to love like I should.
Coho, Midway City.
Date: 4/23/2004
Time: 11:16:13 AM
It's fascinating to see all the stuff on 153. However, if there was a definitive answer as to "what it(153 or other intriguing statements in scripture) means," then would we not do better to read "the right commentary" than to spend time with the scriptures? I believe that wrestling with such things again and again is a way of beling open to the leading of the scriptures. West Texas Presbyterian
Date: 4/23/2004
Time: 11:32:30 AM
It's fascinating to see all the stuff on 153. However, if there was a definitive answer as to "what it(153 or other intriguing statements in scripture) means," then would we not do better to read "the right commentary" than to spend time with the scriptures? I believe that wrestling with such things again and again is a way of beling open to the leading of the scriptures. West Texas Presbyterian
Date: 4/24/2004
Time: 12:57:35 AM
Sally: Liked your comments, but hope you'll reconsider gideons. They are sexist (only men), classist (only men in managerial positions), and I think it's gross the way they stand at the back of the church at the end of the service holding an open Bible for monetary collections. I do not, and will not give them a United Methodist church as a venue for their agenda. Rev in Or.
Date: 4/24/2004
Time: 5:11:03 AM
Rev in Or -- I've had the same experience and come to the same conclusions apropos of the Gideons. I attended one "pastor's appreciation luncheon" given by them when I was first ordained (long ago) and came to the conclusion that they just aren't an organization I can support, for all the reasons you mention, plus the fact that they will not distribute anything other than the KJV which, though filled with lovely Jacobean language, is not a very good translation....
In terms of this lesson ... Gideons don't feed all the sheep, and what they offer to feed is not the best fodder available.
Blessings, Eric in OH
Date: 4/24/2004
Time: 7:13:15 AM
Pastors, as someone earlier in this discussion wrote "ministry is done out of Love". Your arguement regarding the Love offered by a Godly group of Businessmen compares to the disciples arugments about whom shall be the greatest. Such attitudes in the body of Christ feed only the evil that seeks to divide us. I pray that your hearts will learn the good Gideons do, and how they get on their knees every Saturday to pray with love for the "High Priest" that seek not to love them but to crucify them. Feed5000@bellsouth.net
Date: 4/24/2004
Time: 8:27:22 AM
Here is how it is boiling down for me.
Peter and the other go off to digest absorb and process all of their experiences with Jesus. This is not uncommon and very normal. The very fact that he may be surprised to see the Lord indicates belief to me. He does not cower in fear but embraces the grace offered. Through the breakfast meal.
Christ affirms his love, and his call by asking him to tend the lambs, feed the sheep and tend the sheep.
In some ways I think that the three affirmations are words of absolution, but I admit I haven't thought it through completely. I also know that sometimes I need to hear the forgiveness more times than the person giving it.
This moves us to action, to new beginnings and a new career for Peter that of leader, upper management. Feeding the newly converted, the newly baptized. Feed the flock as a whole, serving them by keeping them from harmful places, negotiating territorial disputes. Then feeding the sheep, by the Word and Table. The first part of this text for me set up the second providing a firm base on which to go forth in the name of Jesus. Nancy-Wi
Date: 4/24/2004
Time: 9:42:13 AM
West TX Presbyterian,
I like what you said about "being open to the Scripture", rather than accepting one commentary, one way to look at it.
To me, the 153 fish represents anything which distracts from feeding sheep: to Peter, its the business in which was trained. Counting fish, as someone mentioned, is the focus of someone making a living at sea. At the moment, I am very much distracted by a number which is a monetary figure; a 403b balance representing retirement housing.
We must remember, though, the figure (153) that translates into money, comes from God in the first place. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if 153 fish enabled these fishermen to clear up their debts and make way for them to move on to do the very thing Jesus called them to do.
Jesus is made known to these fisherman/disciples precisely at the point of their business, not at some spiritual retreat. The number 153, for me, is a reminder of this; it is not some code figure which unlocks the mystry of the transcendant. Spiritualizing and codifying these stories helps in our effort to dodge decisions presented by encounters with the risen Jesus in our own places of business. These encounters will always refocus concern (i.e., business) from our own interests to the hungers of others.
The beach breakfast is a remender to Peter and the rest of us that Jesus, who is the one who calls us, will continue to be there to take care of our future needs as we are about the task of sheep feeding. The call may well be where Peter wishes to avoid, but there will be breakfast waiting for him in the morning. Dark nights of peril and failure will surely follow disciples, whether they are trying to return to normal or attempting to follow the call. But, be assured that dawn will surely bring light and there will be a wonderful aroma on the beach.....
Thanks for your reminder.
Steve in KS
Date: 4/24/2004
Time: 12:34:19 PM
How do we feed Jesus' sheep? Who is our neighbor? Several months ago the neighboring Baptist church put a very attractive sign down on the corner not far from my church. It invited all to come and see the new thing that was going on there.I thought, how dare those Baptist, who don't ordain women, who only have men as Deacons, who only Baptize by emersion, who only allow their members to take Holy Communion and who only use the King James version put a sign on the corner. They are trying to get our people to come to their church. Then I realized that we had not done much to win the souls of the neighborhood. We really weren't trying to feed too many sheep. We weren't really trying to understand who our neighbors are. I was jealous at their commitment at who they are and who we aren't. Then the Holy Spirit convicted me that I really should be praising God that they were trying something new that God was at work within that congregation. Then God revealed to me that if I would pray for our neighboring churches and parachurches, if I would support them in their ministry, God would bless us. I realized that the Body of Christ doesn't have to look like me and if the whole world needs to be reached, it is going to take some very different looking Christians,not only in the songs that we sing but in the way we relate to each other. It is even going to take a few women's groups and a few boy's groups, a few girls groups and even a few groups that have both men and women in them. The Giddeons have placed millions of Bibles in countless numbers of motels, jails, doctors offices and schools around the world and they have the where with all to distribute them. I am personally proud to support them no matter if they are only men, or if they are only King James version reading Christians. If you do not have a burden to support them, please don't condemn them. How are YOU spreading the WORD in the WORLD? If our message to our congregations match this kind of negativism, What does our interpretation of the Good News sound like to them? Is your way the only way? Is there no room for the body of christ? po&uneducated in ga
Date: 4/24/2004
Time: 1:09:28 PM
If 153 fish has meaning, then what does it do to advance the Kingdom of God? I fail to see the need to chase this down some dead end path without some link to theological significance.
My focus is on the casting of the net. My sermon is "What A Cast." this can be a verb identifying the process of working to include the wealth of the catch into the boat or it can be a noun describing the people who are fishing.
We are called to be part of cast for Christ, casting our nets to include those in the deep waters onto the boat.
What kind of a net will we use? What captures people today? If we brought 153 people into the boat, I would be delighted and not look for any other meaning, just celebrate the victory.
A W-G rocky coast Me.
Date: 4/24/2004
Time: 2:12:36 PM
The image of Peter jumping into the water to get to Jesus, seems to me (allegorically thinking here) that this was a "baptismal moment" for Peter. Think about it...read the vows and what we are called to do...then think of Peter's moment and what Jesus asks of him. Peace and Joy...Francis in MI
Date: 4/24/2004
Time: 2:57:57 PM
Eric and Rev in Or:
They are only men, and are a throwback to the day when men were the outside-the-homers and women were the "helpmeets." (their women's auxiliar) A day that I agree has had its day. However, I've never had a Gideon stand at the back with an open Bible. They do take an offering, but choose not to blend it with the "main" offering. I went to one (when I was first ordained) pastor's dinner and the pastors were asked to stand up and introduce their lovely wives. And I had a few actually apologize for not being more aware of their speech. I have never, NEVER, felt disrespected by the Gideons - on the contrary; they've communicated and practiced dignity in our traditions, and with me as pastor.
They only distribute the less-than-perfect KJV, but all I can think is, "so what?"
So the Gideons don't fit in the liberal dogma. So what? I have Gideons in the church - do I say that their witness is WRONG, or IRRELEVANT??? Many things that cause me to turn up my sensitive theological nose reach someone ELSE.
Consider, for example, "Jesus Christ Superstar." Many conservatives shudder and cringe at the sacrelige that is Jesus Christ Superstar. (and, despite whatever you may think of Andrew Lloyd Weber), when I saw the movie when I was 11, it was a *profound* witness to me. I wasn't too good for it. I see tract-pushers and KJV proclaimers much the same way.
And I'm not too good for the Gideons, either. I'm liberal enough to allow others not to be.
Sally in GA
Date: 4/24/2004
Time: 3:02:51 PM
And, further, the implication that I don't allow Gideons in my UM church because they're all male, all businesspeople, and all KJV and (presumably majority) conservative ... well, isn't that the same thing as the tract-pushers insisting that we receive the Gospel - and in their way, and in their terms, and by their direction, and with their prayer??? Are we prepared to insist that no one is allowed to hear the Gospel because it doesn't fit our sensibilities?
What's more imporant, being right, or FEEDING THE SHEEP?
Sally
Date: 4/24/2004
Time: 3:57:16 PM
I don't title my sermons, but this one would be, "Breakfast with Jesus." In the movie "Breakfast at Tiffany's" it sounds very glamourous, as if it involves drinking champagne for breakfast over the diamonds in the company of the rich. It's actually the lonely and pathetic habit of a young woman who sells herself as an escort. As she walks home alone in the early morning hours, she buys a coffee and walks along Fifth Avenue, dreaming of the diamonds at Tiffany's and the life they represent: wealth and security. Instead, she is confronted by the cold hard realities of her life.
The disciples had similar dreams of wealth and power. They had come so close to realizing them! They had entered the city in triumph with Jesus. They had seen the fear in the faces of the religious authorities. But then it all fell apart. Jesus died, and their dreams evaporated. Well, he rose again, and that was great, but he wasn't their teacher any more. No more travelling around with him, listening to him teach and watching him heal lives. Nothing for the disciples to do but head back to the cold, hard realities of life. Nothing to do but go back to fishing.
But there is a third alternative to a life of false and shallow dreams, or limited by hard cold facts of life. That is the surprising offer of a life-changing love. Sure, that sounds all romantic and sentimental and movie-like; but who would have expected an early-morning breakfast with fishermen on the beach to feature a conversation about love? Not only that, but a love that changes your life. It literally takes you out of your element (from fishing to shepherding) and changes you.
I see a lot of my folks living "Breakfast at Tiffany's" kind of lives, living as if there are only two alternatives for lives: either shallow materialism or mindless grind. I'm hoping "Breakfast with Jesus" offers a third.
LF
Date: 4/24/2004
Time: 8:09:19 PM
My experiences with the Gideons have always been quite positive. They are not pushy, and they always, ALWAYS ask how I would like them to join into the service. They have only recently done the Bible in the Back (open to an Isaiah passage), and the page of the Bible is full of cash by the time our members file out. We welcome them with open arms even though we're not KJV people. I arrange the entire service (including bulletin cover - a quote from the Psalms and the Gideon logo I cut and paste from their website) around the work of spreading the Gospel and the importance of actually READING whatever Bible we choose. The Gideon's speech, no matter where it falls in the service, is seamlessly inserted into the hour. We have a good working relationship with each other, and understand we don't all see things the same way. I'm female clergy, they are an all-male group but we're all in this together. I think they just want to do what they feel called to do. I applaud that. Yes, I wish they weren't quite so elitist, and I wish women could be Gideons too, but they may wish women weren't clergy, too. If so, they have kept their opinions to themselves and have shown nothing but Christian acceptance of me. So, I'll just let them carry on their ministry in peace. They are welcome here.
Date: 4/24/2004
Time: 8:10:51 PM
sorry, I forgot to sign that last post.
KHC
Date: 4/24/2004
Time: 8:11:11 PM
sorry, I forgot to sign that last post.
KHC
Date: 4/24/2004
Time: 8:13:17 PM
Yes, it is late. As for appreciating what the Gideans do, I do. Placing the Word where it can be read is a noble cause, no matter the version used. I don't like KJV personnally. The Gideans filled my pulpet one year as I went on vacation. Would I let them take my pulpit again? Not likely. I used them that once and it took time for the congregation to recover. Yes indeed, we need to look for where Jesus keeps showing himselfWhen were you closest to him this week? PSINIA
Date: 4/25/2004
Time: 4:29:45 AM
153
Perhaps way to late to respond to the number of fish. Saint Jerome tells us that at the time the Gospel was written there were 153 species of fish known in the sea and metaphorically the number represents all the known nations and races of people throughout the world. The catch represents the mission of the disciples - to be fishers of people.
tom in ga
Date: 5/20/2004
Time: 10:10:01 AM
when Jesus says, "feed my lambs, tend my sheep, and feed my sheep," what is he reffering to. Is he telling his disciples to spread the word of the lord to the people, who are symbolized by the sheep? I'd appreciate it if someone could enlighten me. email-hollaback62288@hotmail.com
Date: 7/5/2004
Time: 7:38:05 AM
Is John the Deciple still alive.
Date: 9/19/2004
Time: 1:03:08 PM
Date:9/19/2004 Time:4:00 PM
Commets
I belive that this passage means that you should not just take care to people that you work with but also to people that have a good heart but are unable to afford or get anything because they get shut down, and are unwated.
Date: 9/19/2004
Time: 1:03:35 PM
Date:9/19/2004 Time:4:00 PM
I belive that this passage means that you should not just take care to people that you work with but also to people that have a good heart but are unable to afford or get anything because they get shut down, and are unwated.
Date: 9/19/2004
Time: 1:04:12 PM
Date:9/19/2004
Time:4:00 PM
I belive that this passage means that you should not just take care to people that you work with but also to people that have a good heart but are unable to afford or get anything because they get shut down, and are unwated.