Date: 04 May 2002
Time: 02:10:20

Comments

Here in the UK Mother's day is in Lent, so I don't have that complication to worry about, and I'm wrestling with John 17:10, "I have been glorified in them". I'm planning to build the sermon round the question "Are you glorious?" - banking on the fact that most people won't feel or want to claim that they are, but actually the implication of the text is that they should; I want people to leave feeling exalted.

To my own surprise, I'm going to use the hymn "Mine eyes have seen the glory...", and talk about it a bit. This is a hymn that normally irritates me, not least for unscripturality ("In the beauty of the lilies Christ was born..." doesn't sound like any Palestinian stable I can imagine). But in context, what fits perfectly is the idea of the patrician Julia Howe seeing the glory of the Lord in the ordinary Union soldiery, who were presumably as rough and ready as any other army - and given her husband's position in the Sanitary Commission she presumably had every reason to know just how rough and ready.

But of course this hymn has no patriotic or political resonances in this country, and I'd be interested to know how the above falls on US ears.

Stephen in Exeter UK


Date: 06 May 2002
Time: 16:41:36

Comments

The contrast between the mystic John, and Matthew, with Luke and Acts concerning Pentecost is awesome. The empowerment through the Holy Spirit for ministry ("grater works than these will you do")is, I believe the common core. Also comparing Old Testament stories of ascension is meaningful. At any rate I can hear the meaning of the ascension in Paul's afffirmations and/or faith visions: Let this mind bein you which was in Christ Jesus; Christ in you, the hope of glory; and, it is nit I but Christ that lives in me. This insightful visions I believe embrace Jesus in John's gospel unveiling the manifestation of the mystical covenant community within...the holy one-ness...Father in me, I am in the Father, I in you. John 14 and prayer in 17.

Thanks Nailbender for the review of the Golden Cross Sunday last week.

PaideiaSCO reflecting in north GA mts.


Date: 07 May 2002
Time: 12:43:35

Comments

With this Sunday being Mother's day, a theme that jumped out at me is that of a protective parent. Although we often think of father's as being the protective ones, Jesus used the image of a mother hen gathering her chicks under her wings as an illustration of his bringing his own into unity. Unity is often lacking in local congregations and within the greater church. As in the word sanctuary, we need the power of God to protect us(not just in the sanctuary but in the world to which the people of faith are called to serve). How do we protect our children? Ultimately by placing them in the hands of God, which would obviously include the Holy Spirit guiding and empowering parents into right actions and decisions. TN Mack


Date: 07 May 2002
Time: 12:45:36

Comments

With this Sunday being Mother's day, a theme that jumped out at me is that of a protective parent. Although we often think of father's as being the protective ones, Jesus used the image of a mother hen gathering her chicks under her wings as an illustration of his bringing his own into unity. Unity is often lacking in local congregations and within the greater church. As in the word sanctuary, we need the power of God to protect us(not just in the sanctuary but in the world to which the people of faith are called to serve). How do we protect our children? Ultimately by placing them in the hands of God, which would obviously include the Holy Spirit guiding and empowering parents into right actions and decisions. TN Mack


Date: 07 May 2002
Time: 12:47:16

Comments

With this Sunday being Mother's day, a theme that jumped out at me is that of a protective parent. Although we often think of father's as being the protective ones, Jesus used the image of a mother hen gathering her chicks under her wings as an illustration of his bringing his own into unity. Unity is often lacking in local congregations and within the greater church. As in the word sanctuary, we need the power of God to protect us(not just in the sanctuary but in the world to which the people of faith are called to serve). How do we protect our children? Ultimately by placing them in the hands of God, which would obviously include the Holy Spirit guiding and empowering parents into right actions and decisions. TN Mack


Date: 07 May 2002
Time: 13:01:40

Comments

The greatest gift my mother ever gave me was the gift of prayer. I knew she was praying for me and I know now that her prayers made a difference. The greatest gift a parent can give a child is prayer. We often down play prayer or use it as a last resort. But the prayer of a mother or father for a child is an awesome gift.

Isn't it awesome to know that Jesus prayed for His followers? I think it is a good tie in for Mother's Day. My mom is gone now but I know that Jesus' prayers for me continue on.

Some early thoughts from Pastor John in CT


Date: 07 May 2002
Time: 15:21:07

Comments

TN Mack--

That hen image of Jesus's is, so far as I've ever noticed, the ONLY hen in the entire bible... apart from the cockerel that crowed to mark Peter's desertion. And one other reference to "cockcrow" in Mark. I'm not sure what this means, if anything, but it makes a nice tie-in from Jesus's motherly care for us to our cowardly desertion of him.

Stephen in Exeter UK


Date: 07 May 2002
Time: 20:01:31

Comments

Tn-Mack, in the Faith we Sing there is a wonderful song, Lord prepare me to be a sanctuary. Nancy-Wi


Date: 08 May 2002
Time: 01:53:18

Comments

Another English contribution!

Next Sunday is also Christian Aid Sunday here and I was wondering if it might be good to take that great idea from Stephen in Exeter (i.e. "I have been glorified in them") and link it to the poor of the world? Maybe urge people to see the glory of Christ in the bereaved mother in Israel / Palestine (the "/" there means BOTH!!), the dispossessed in Sierra Leone etc. etc. (a depressingly long list). Where does that lead us?

Afraid I can't summon up any enthusiasm for "Mine eyes have seen the glory ..." - the image of people trying to kill each other is all that comes to mind when that is sung, rather than anything Christ-like. Maybe that's just me though.

Peter in Lancaster (UK)


Date: 08 May 2002
Time: 05:59:07

Comments

"This is eternal life, that they may know You...." Eternal life as a relationship rather than a place... Eternal life beginning now rather than at the end of this life....this understanding might help us to become Marys instead of Marthas, something much needed in our culture! PJ in Spring Valley


Date: 08 May 2002
Time: 05:59:28

Comments

"This is eternal life, that they may know You...." Eternal life as a relationship rather than a place... Eternal life beginning now rather than at the end of this life....this understanding might help us to become Marys instead of Marthas, something much needed in our culture! PJ in Spring Valley


Date: 08 May 2002
Time: 08:34:12

Comments

"eternal life is a relationship, not a place": great comment. Meanwhile, Stephen in Exeter, as an American, I associate the Battle Hymn of the Republic with the Civil War, of course. The hymn does seem intimately tied to war, despite its promise of redemption or transfiguration. I'm not sure anyone hears the words- more the aura of the 19th century coming through, I think, especially with the non-inclusive language and archaic speech liike "a glory in his bosom". So if the 19th century works for you, fine. I am working on a sermon theme of the Holy SPirit as kind of a Frodo invisibility cloak for us - a weapon, to be sure, as we go into the world (a weapon not producing violence- though, perhaps overcoming the violence?) --AEA


Date: 08 May 2002
Time: 09:48:54

Comments

Thanks Eric, That is the site I was looking for. Rev. Tim, Ontario, Canada


Date: 08 May 2002
Time: 11:29:40

Comments

Stephen in Exeter,

I've always taken that line in "Mine eyes..." about Jesus born in the lilies' beauty to be a reference to Mary, whose flower has traditionally been the lily...

Heather in Sharon


Date: 08 May 2002
Time: 11:32:16

Comments

Stephen in Exeter,

I've always taken that line in "Mine eyes..." about Jesus born in the lilies' beauty to be a reference to Mary, whose flower has traditionally been the lily...

Heather in Sharon


Date: 08 May 2002
Time: 11:36:41

Comments

Nancy and Stephen, Thank you for your responsive comments. I had an additional thought on the issue of protecting the child. We have been bombarded with news about priests who have sexually abused children, about children who are kidnapped, and about children dying innocently in acts of war and terrorism. Even the internet has become an avenue for sick persons to prey upon children and youth. Most parents today try harder than parents of past generations to off their children instruction on how to avoid such horrible things and experience protection. The awful fact of the matter is that no such guarantee exists that something bad like that or even that the misfortune of accident or illness can be avoided. Living as a parent in these days requires no small amount of trust that, as long as we place our lives and the lives of our children in God's hand, ultimately we are safe in the everlasting arms of God. TN Mack


Date: 08 May 2002
Time: 12:13:38

Comments

Help. I don't want to sound so skeptical Sunday. But I am struggling to find integrity in this passage.

Many things in John differ from the same stories in the synoptics. In the synoptics we are told of a passionate prayer that Jesus prays in the gardin of Gethsemeny. We are given some snippits of this prayer.

Here John changes the setting, putting the prayer in the upper room before they go back across the Kidron Vallety to the Mt Of Olives. John has good reason for changing the setting of the prayer. If it is a private prayer with Jesus removed from the other disciples even a ways from Peter, James and John, then any verbatim of this prayer is something the disciples could only have had if Jesus wrote it down or repeated it to them word for word. When would he have done that?

Any verbatim of that prayer is bogus. So what is John selling us here? Who can tell me a way to preach on this text with integrity?


Date: 08 May 2002
Time: 12:26:36

Comments

Stepehen, as a child I loved to sing "mine eyes have seen the glory" Later that hymn ant others with militaristic images became suspect. Not only that, the very words glory and glorify once sounded great but now leave a bad taste.

Those places in the Bible where these words and concepts are use feel as if they have already been had by the spin doctors. See the movie, Will Wild West with Will Smith for an example of the kind of feeling this leaves. It has a song, Come to Glory...


Date: 08 May 2002
Time: 13:00:13

Comments

Does glory or glorify mean to hallow, as Lincoln used the word in the Gettysburg address. Lincoln is right in that making something holy is not something we do by our ceremonies. What is holy is beyond anything we plan, stragegize or accomplish.


Date: 08 May 2002
Time: 15:40:22

Comments

chapter 17 looks like many doctrinal statements strung together and disguised as a prayer.


Date: 08 May 2002
Time: 16:15:56

Comments

Please sign your posts, lately it seems like we have so many unsigned. Signing helps me to keep posts connected. Nancy-WI


Date: 09 May 2002
Time: 04:49:13

Comments

One thing I heard Dr. James Nestingen say that I want to pass on to the group is that we need to remember that Jesus is praying to God, not to us. It is not our responsibility to make happen what Jesus prays for in this text.

My thoughts are still not clearly formulated on what I am to do for this Sunday. It is difficult to know what to do with this, since Jesus says, "I am no longer in the world." If the prayer actually happens before the crucifixion... still working.

Michelle


Date: 09 May 2002
Time: 06:12:12

Comments

I've always thought that if "Mine Eyes Have Seen the Glory" is to be rehabilitated as a non-militaristic hymn, it should be seen as an Advent hymn, especially appropriate on Advent 1. After all, much of the imagery and language is taken from Revelation and the other apocalyptic portions of the Bible. And the last verse is a prelude to Christmas. -- Mike in Maryland


Date: 09 May 2002
Time: 06:53:36

Comments

One more Battle Hymn comment -- I agree that the language is difficult to redeem. However, my recollection is that the text is actually -- "In the beauty of the lilies, Christ was borne (carried) across the sea," which I have always taken as a reference of the spreading of the gospel to the new world. Maybe that's just my revisionist memory.

RevEv in Ks


Date: 09 May 2002
Time: 08:48:44

Comments

The copy I have says "Christ was born" no "e", but I like the imagery of witness to the new world.

One more comment on that hymn, the original words were, "As he died to make men holy, Let us die to make men free..."

Many a good hymn for the unity of the church (verse 11) would be "The Church's One Foundation"

Michelle


Date: 09 May 2002
Time: 09:54:57

Comments

I don't usually tie in to the secular holidays unless it seems to fit. This one does. When my first child was born, I discovered a dimension of love I had never known before. I thought, "if God loves me 1/2 as much as I love this child, I have nothing to fear." Of course, God's love is much bigger! I also felt an overwhelming desire to protect this tiny child from the "big bad world". I still want to do that, but also realize my kids will have to learn some lessons the hard way - however, they know that through it all God, and Mom and Dad will never stop loving them and praying for them. Anyone else see a connection here? REVMOM


Date: 09 May 2002
Time: 09:57:10

Comments

I don't usually tie in to the secular holidays unless it seems to fit. This one does. When my first child was born, I discovered a dimension of love I had never known before. I thought, "if God loves me 1/2 as much as I love this child, I have nothing to fear." Of course, God's love is much bigger! I also felt an overwhelming desire to protect this tiny child from the "big bad world". I still want to do that, but also realize my kids will have to learn some lessons the hard way - however, they know that through it all God, and Mom and Dad will never stop loving them and praying for them. Anyone else see a connection here? REVMOM


Date: 09 May 2002
Time: 12:06:37

Comments

Unsigned poster of Date: 08 May 2002 Time: 12:13:38 (who was feeling sceptical about the High Priestly Prayer)--

You might find some help in the "homiletic theory" about John's gospel, i.e. that it basically consists of a series of texts (which can be identified back to the same sources as the synoptics) followed by the evangelist's sermons on them; and the literary conventions of the time, not to mention the complete absence of punctuation in the early manuscripts, mean we can't be sure where one starts and the other stops.

This would not be suitable fare for all congregations, and would inflame some regulars on this list, but it was only taking that perspective that enabled me to start taking John seriously at all as a source of insight about Jesus - for the same sceptical reasons you advance. And having found a way into it, as it were, I have tended to become less sceptical.

You can find a reasonably accessible introduction to this way of thinking (which is fairly commonplace among New Testament scholars) in Barnabas Lindars' book "John", published by Sheffield Academic Press.

--Stephen in Exeter UK


Date: 09 May 2002
Time: 12:12:06

Comments

All--

Thanks for those contributions on the Battle Hymn, which were very helpful.

I don't think that the idea that "born across the sea" means "carried" will do, unless Julia Howe was a poor speller (or the conventions of the place and time were different from mine). The facsimile of the original draft is at http://www.rewhc.org/lawtonvalleybattlehymn.shtml (and incidentally includes a verse I've never seen before), and clearly has no e on born.

But on the basis that the text once written acquires a life of its own, it's a valid thought.

Except that I suspect that transatlantic travel until the 20th century hadn't got much more to do with lilies than Palestinian stables have... But let's not break butterflies on wheels here.

I'm still aiming to tell my congregation they're glorious, and I'm still going to have them sing the Battle Hymn.

--Stephen in Exeter UK


Date: 09 May 2002
Time: 14:28:19

Comments

Stephen

Thanks so much for your comments on John - I think you may have rescued me in the same way you were rescued. I was getting lost in the detail.

I think I won't preach on this as I too really can't imagine how anyone could have remembered the words Jesus actually prayed in that upper room especially with all the clauses and sub-clauses. I don't suppose that HANSARD were there with a stenograph! However, to try and explain that to a congregation would probably mean that some of them would miss the whole of the rest of the sermon!

I'm going with the "wait on the HS" and be ready for a hard time in the Acts and Epistle readings.

Regards

Adam in Hertford, UK

PS Good to have some UK input into all this. I'm a Methodist Local Preacher - third year, very behind with the studies!!


Date: 09 May 2002
Time: 14:31:04

Comments

Last post didn't appear - test post please excuse


Date: 09 May 2002
Time: 15:18:08

Comments

Adam in Hertford,

I guess the ability to interpret John, involves the way in which most human beings understand fact and truth. We tend to believe that the synoptic gospels record the "actual" words of Jesus, whenever they quote him. I would find this extremely difficult to actually believe. Whilst I can believe that the people of the era had extremely good memories, the precise words that Jesus used could not possibly have been accurately recorded in the same manner as tape recording is done today. There is some editorial licence contained in all of them, and that has been the difficulty when attempting to lay the synoptics alongside one another. The 3 accounts don't always correctly correspond.

When we come to John's gospel, we are thrown completely because his chronology, his format and his language seem totally foreign.

Let me try to explain my own thinking on this dilemma.

If four people were to view an incident from four different angles, each would have their particular perspective and each would believe they were giving a factual account of the incident. If we then asked the fourth to relate to us the emotional content of their experience as each part of the incident was played out, we would get an entirely different picture of the incident.

John mixes metaphor and reality, he expands upon a simple text in the synoptics with long discourses of feelings and emotional content, he describes at length what is happening within the person of Jesus, where the synoptics simply relate the event. John provides us with insight into the nature of the divine and the human struggling with life and purpose under God. Every line is rich in double metaphor, sometimes quite complex reasoning has been applied to the person of Christ and his purpose for coming to us. His theology is Word made Flesh.

Everything associated with John's gospel relates back to the prologue at the beginning, in which John believes that Jesus and human beings for that matter, have been made flesh simply by the word of God. Words become more than words to him.

Human beings seem to prefer the synoptic, because they don't make us think and ponder as much. We prefer simplicity, rather than the complexity of John's thinking gospel.

I find John exciting and challenging, puzzling and enlightening all in the same breath. Remember there was a long debate over whether it should be included in the canon.

I hope this has been of interest.

An Aussie.


Date: 09 May 2002
Time: 15:39:40

Comments

Dear Aussie Friend

John has always been my favourite too and I was aware of the whole "redaction" thing. It's just that sometimes you are led to forget it whe the "words of Jesus" appear in Red in QuickVerse! and I'm not sure that my congregation for Sunday has made the leap that I did when I first understood that it wasn't just the bits where the gospels don't agree chronologically etc but that the Gospels weren't actual "Gospel Truth" as the world puts it after all!

Thanks

Adam


Date: 09 May 2002
Time: 18:16:54

Comments

In Quickverse, if you go to the fonts menu, then click on colors, you can change the "words of Christ" to any color you wish, even the black that the normal words are.

Michelle


Date: 09 May 2002
Time: 18:28:46

Comments

I see that it remains true that God uses the foolish to confound the wise.

Why do you try so hard to be smarter than God? Did God not preserve the Gospel accounts that we have in the face of tyrannt and kingdom set against them?

Is your faith only in what measures to up your wisdom?

I think we are foolish to impose our 21st century ideals of journalism on storytellers from the Mediteranean who simply wish to tell us that God is awesome, we are loved, and Christ is Lord.

You are working far too hard - God's love is here!

BINNY


Date: 10 May 2002
Time: 02:24:35

Comments

Thank-you Binny for your simple faith.

Then lets not have a bible at all!

Lets just dispense with all this discussion about God at all!

Lets just all get lost in wonder, love and praise.

Lets not try to persuade or influence anyone else in our belief. Lets just allow them to discover this all by themself.

You want simple. Simply burn every book, every technological advance of medical science and the mechanical world. Destroy every bit of understanding and learning that we have ever experienced and return to the primeval life.

Then it was just so simple.

Get up with the sun, kill eat, have sex, kill, eat, go to sleep with the sun, die.

In that context, God was simply any element that worked against our being able to do any of these things.

Simple does not necessarily mean utopia!

Why do people want their Christianity, without having to think about it and to discuss what they believe? I can't fathom that thinking.

If you want to suggest that John didn't think about Jesus a WHOLE lot, then I don't know what to say.

Have a great life.

A loving caring Christian.


Date: 10 May 2002
Time: 10:14:46

Comments

My first Sunday as a pastor was on the July 4 weekend in a small North Carolina town. Preparing the bulletin I thought about using the Battle Hymn of the Republic but remembered where I was.

Sunday morning at the opening of Sunday School, Billy C. said, "We will sing the Battle Hymn of the Republic" in an accent thick enough to cut with a butter knife. North Carolina was part of that Republic. Rev. Sue in Cuba, KS


Date: 10 May 2002
Time: 10:19:19

Comments

The shaddow of our faith is that side which apears in the more awkward moments. It is the side we did not intend to show to company but suddenly it is exposed and now we try to explain it.

John being a philosopher is what gives extra beauty to his gospel. "The word became flesh is a crowning jewel:. Yet any idea that is exagerated and taken to the extreme can become rediculous. There is someting hanging out here. It just feels like it is something less than straightforeword.


Date: 10 May 2002
Time: 10:26:29

Comments

Dear BINNY,

I appreciate your comments. I agree, sometimes we do work too hard. Sometimes we get so bogged down in the details that we lose sight of the larger truth. On the other hand, if we lose sight of the details, we may not experience the richness of the gifts God gives through the Word. We need to keep hearing the call back from extremes within the living faith God gives us. Thank you.

Michelle


Date: 10 May 2002
Time: 10:31:22

Comments

Interesting collection of posts coming from all different directions. Wow! All over the place.

John's gospel is indeed the most challenging of the gospels because it is unique. It is also the last gospel written, written to a specific community with an almost overbearing reliance on belief, belief alone. It was last week's gospel reading as Jesus called the disciples to action that I finally found the balance to the belief that is preached throughout the rest of John. With that passage the belief called for in John became a verb, an action, a life lived. I needed that. I preached that.

Now this week we have Jesus prayer. Verbatim? No. Believable? Yes. It's believable because Jesus calls us into the love he shares with God. It's believable because Jesus is praying for us, the faith community which is being left behind. It's believable because it is an invitation for us to join Jesus into this relationship which is called eternal life. John makes sure that he slips in his comments but in between John's words I hear the core of the gospel, which is a life lived in Christ and for Christ.

With all that said, my sermon title is going to be "The Time of Your Life." I'll be using Jesus' comments from Acts about the date/time isn't important (only God knows that after all), and the angel's instructions to get on with it. From John I plan to pick up Jesus' prayers for us. The bottom line being the date/time isn't important, but the time we are given is.

Peace, Mark in WI


Date: 10 May 2002
Time: 10:35:28

Comments

IN Steinbeck's the Grapes of Wrath, there is s preacher who's initials are J. C. who realizes that everything is sacred. When one reaches that point then the attempt to glorify something seems rather bazzar.

It is as if these wrords of John's indicate that he just did not get it. Or that words were added to his gospel by someone who did not fully understand.


Date: 10 May 2002
Time: 10:40:41

Comments

Anyone who grasps the beauty of Christ, has no need to embellish or try to further deify Christ.


Date: 10 May 2002
Time: 11:21:30

Comments

My direction this week will begin with unity, from the last verse, "That they may be one, as we are one." Unity does not mean sameness, but unity of overall purpose: "Proclaiming the Good News!"

Then I will move into some of the many different ways the Spirit moves us toward this purpose, incorporating Luther's understanding of vocation of the Christian. I will bring in the Acts passage here, with the idea that we are to stop merely standing around, and get busy.

Finally, I will conclude that it is the Holy Spirit Who calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies the whole Christian Church on earth, and KEEPS IT UNITED with Jesus Christ in the one true faith.

Lots of work to get it all together, but that's my idea for this week. Have appreciated the help you all give with your postings on this site. Thank you.

Michelle


Date: 10 May 2002
Time: 14:41:22

Comments

A loving caring Christian?

Perhaps we don't even need a Desperate Preacher's site either. We simply get up each Sunday and state, "God's love is here"

Yet in just that one statement I could ask a whole series of questions.

Who is God?, What is love? Where is here? What's the difference between human love and God's love? What is my part in that? To receive it, or to respond to it?

Oops, I forgot. We're not supposed to make it too complicated.

How has Christ been glorified in us?

As always, enjoying the postings and praying for our preaching on Sunday.

KGB


Date: 10 May 2002
Time: 17:54:23

Comments

A Loving caring Christian. . .

OK.

Of course we need to delve deeper into the marrow of the text, but if that is all we offer to our congregants or each other we miss the beauty of the revealed Love of God.

I think Binny was trying, in his own way, to call us to embrace this awesome goodness. I do not think he or she meant to offend our thin skinned "loving caring Christian" cowardly friend.

Lighten up.

Maxwell in the High Mountains


Date: 10 May 2002
Time: 18:07:41

Comments

I think BINNY is telling us not to do isogesis! Exegesis is getting at the heart of the matter. Isogesis is reading into. Am I reading you correctly BINNY? lp in CO


Date: 10 May 2002
Time: 20:41:11

Comments

I'm calling my sermon "And This Is Eternal Life..." Thanks for all your good posts on the topic that got me started, especially the idea of eternal life as a relationship, rather than a place.

Here's a good quote on the subject from Paul Tillich's book of sermons "The Eternal Now". He's talking about people coming to terms (or not) with the fact that there is an end to life. Some people deal with it by "putting the expectation of a long life between now and the end." ... but..."Many people realize this deception and hope for a continuation of this life after death. They expect an endless future in which they may achieve or possess what has been denied them in this life. This is a prevalent attitude about the future, and also a very simple one. It denies that there is an end. It refuses to accept that we are creatures, that we come from the eternal ground of time and return to the eternal ground of time... It replaces eternity by endless future...."

"This is not the Christian way of dealing with the end. The Christian message says that the eternal stands above past and future. 'I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end.'... If we want to speak in truth without foolish, wishful thinking, we should speak about the eternal that is neither timelessness nor endless time. ...There is no time after time, but there is eternity above time."

Will this make sense to my congregation? That's another question to ponder... May God grant us wisdom and words of life this week. I for one certainly need God's grace at this late time...

DGinNYC


Date: 11 May 2002
Time: 09:41:33

Comments

Michelle

Thanks for the tip on how to use QuickVerse - My full time job is as a IT Development Manager so I should have spotted that.

In the light of the discussions that I was very surpised to have kicked off I think that the next version of QuickVerse may need some modification. You see some of the words of Jesus (like "It is finished" can stay in red, others could be orange - those which are close enough that it doesn't make any difference and then like this prayer - ones that are in plain black or a very dark red anyway!

Friends please don't take me up on my choice of colours (or my correct spelling! the Brits got it right). I think this discussion thread should end here.

I will say that I truly believe that God intended the scriptures to arrive much as they are today (in it's many translations - I even find the Good News useful sometimes), but I am also so grateful for the opening that is occuring as I delve deeper into translations and basic but not too esoteric literary criticism.

I also have a heart for Binney's side in that before I got the message about redaction et al God used me to preach, to lead others in the interpretation of scripture and to a closer relationship with Christ Jesus. There are still some times when I preach when as soon as I read the lection I know what I'm going to do and I don't even consult a commentary or my friends here !!! Shock Horror.

See you all next time I'm preaching.

Adam in Hertford, UK


Date: 11 May 2002
Time: 10:05:30

Comments

I am truly a Desperate Preacher, so excuse my late posting. I had a conversation about this gospel with one of my parishioners and we were drawn to the statement in verse 5. "I glorified you on earth by finishing the work that you gave me to do." Keeping in mind Jesus prayed this before he was crucified and rose again. Isn't it odd that he felt he had finished the work that God had given him to do at that point? His life was unique and interesting, but not necessarilly outstanding int he sense that the world measures success or marks distinction. But Jesus clearly had a perception that he had fulfilled God's will in his life and thus brought glory to God.

What about me/us? Have we "finished" the work that we have been given? I had a funeral for dear Elsie this week. She was 93 and truly a matriarch of our church. There is no one who has made a greater lifetime contribution to our ministry than Elsie. She served on church council, ran the women's group, the Sunday School, the Senior's group, sang in the choir, rang hand bells and did countless behind the scenes kinds of things. Outside of church she was president of her union local, served on the provincial minimum wage committee etc. When her sister was needing full-time care Elsie put everything else on hold, including church, and moved in with her sister to care for her for a few years. AFter her sister's death and Elsie's own deteriation of health she continued to inspire by her presence on Sunday mornings, in he wheel chair. You get the point? She glorified God by finishing the work that God had given her to do. It is hard to imagine how any human being could have done more. that was Elsie.

But what about me? In our baptismal liturgy we present a lit candle and quote from Matthew, "Let your light so shine before others that they may see your good works, and GLORIFY your Father who is in heaven." This is our baptismal call. It was a joy to celebrate Elsie's fulfillment of that call.

This relates to the posting that reminds us that life does come to an end. Are we making the most of the time we have? Will we at some point look with satisfaction at our life and be able to say we are finished -- we have glorified God by finishing the work that God gave us to do? I find this challenging.

Thanks for all your good contributions. Hope this is helpful to someone at this late time.

David from Saskatoon, CAN


Date: 11 May 2002
Time: 10:05:45

Comments

I am truly a Desperate Preacher, so excuse my late posting. I had a conversation about this gospel with one of my parishioners and we were drawn to the statement in verse 5. "I glorified you on earth by finishing the work that you gave me to do." Keeping in mind Jesus prayed this before he was crucified and rose again. Isn't it odd that he felt he had finished the work that God had given him to do at that point? His life was unique and interesting, but not necessarilly outstanding int he sense that the world measures success or marks distinction. But Jesus clearly had a perception that he had fulfilled God's will in his life and thus brought glory to God.

What about me/us? Have we "finished" the work that we have been given? I had a funeral for dear Elsie this week. She was 93 and truly a matriarch of our church. There is no one who has made a greater lifetime contribution to our ministry than Elsie. She served on church council, ran the women's group, the Sunday School, the Senior's group, sang in the choir, rang hand bells and did countless behind the scenes kinds of things. Outside of church she was president of her union local, served on the provincial minimum wage committee etc. When her sister was needing full-time care Elsie put everything else on hold, including church, and moved in with her sister to care for her for a few years. AFter her sister's death and Elsie's own deteriation of health she continued to inspire by her presence on Sunday mornings, in he wheel chair. You get the point? She glorified God by finishing the work that God had given her to do. It is hard to imagine how any human being could have done more. that was Elsie.

But what about me? In our baptismal liturgy we present a lit candle and quote from Matthew, "Let your light so shine before others that they may see your good works, and GLORIFY your Father who is in heaven." This is our baptismal call. It was a joy to celebrate Elsie's fulfillment of that call.

This relates to the posting that reminds us that life does come to an end. Are we making the most of the time we have? Will we at some point look with satisfaction at our life and be able to say we are finished -- we have glorified God by finishing the work that God gave us to do? I find this challenging.

Thanks for all your good contributions. Hope this is helpful to someone at this late time.

David from Saskatoon, CAN


Date: 11 May 2002
Time: 10:05:50

Comments

More about the "eternal now" a la Tillich...He talks about the eternal containing the past and the future, yet also transcending them, and being rooted in the present.

I was thinking about how much trouble people have these days being in the present. Take cell phones for example. It seems that people can't simply walk down the street anymore (Do I sound like an old lady complaining?). They have to be talking or doing business at the same time. The other day I went food shopping and ended up listening to some woman talking on the phone telling someone in a loud voice about her dream from the night before. I believe people use cell phones to distract them from the present. Or they try to cram so much into the present that they lose any meaning in what they are doing. It is possible to do two or three things at once. But when people require of themselves to constantly be doing more than one thing at a time, they can never be totally present. How can we understand eternity, if we can't even be in the present?

DGinNYC


Date: 11 May 2002
Time: 13:40:46

Comments

Adam in Hertford, UK

By your time, this note is very late but maybe you'll see it later. Just found it interesting to discover I have a counterpart across the seas. I'm also a Methodist local pastor whose day job is with computers as a senior systems administrator in an IT department. Finding you encourages me that God can use me where I'm at. God is good indeed! Mike in Soddy Daisy, TN, USA


Date: 11 May 2002
Time: 19:44:01

Comments

This is wonderful section that includes Jesus' "High Priestly Prayer." I am including verses 20-23 in addition to verses 1-11. (Why be limited by the pericope?)

As I have come to understand the focus of Jesus' prayer, it was not just so that the disciples and all believers would be "one" --- it wasn't for the sake of more and bigger church mergers, nor even for the sake of fellowship. Instead, verses 3, 8, 11b, 21 and 23b are intimately tied together. We need to see just why Jesus wanted them to be united. We discover the reason when we read the "...so that..." portion.

Vs. 21: "May they also be in us SO THAT the world may believe that you have sent me."

Vs. 23: "...May they be brought to complete unity TO LET THE WORLD KNOW THAT you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."

The purpose of our being one in Christ is SO THAT the world will hear and receive a unified voice that proclaims that Jesus is Lord, and that Jesus and the Father are one.

Verse 11 is a great lead into Pentecost Sunday (May 19), and the outporing of the Holy Spirit with power. The coming of the Holy Spirit is the fulfilment of Jesus' promise that he is with us always.

In anticipation of Holy Trinity Sunday on May 26, it may do people well to take another look at the Athanasian Creed, which speaks at length about the unity of the Trinity.

Why does Jesus want us to be one as he and the Father are one? SO THAT the world may BELIEVE that Jesus was sent by the Father -- so that the world may believe that Jesus is Lord -- so that you and me and my daughter and your neighbor and the people in West Overshoe, North Dakota, and in Schilbach, Germany, ... will believe that God loves us so much that he would rather die than be with out us!

Rev. Karl in Utah


Date: 11 May 2002
Time: 20:16:55

Comments

Why unity? Read the previous post. Why Mother's Day?

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The Founder of Mothers Day

Anna Jarvis, the founder of Mothers Day, was born in Webster, Taylor County, West Virginia, on May 1, 1864, the ninth of eleven children born to Ann Marie and Granville Jarvis. The family moved to Grafton, four miles south of Webster, when Anna was a year and a half old. It was here that the future founder of Mothers Day spent her childhood, receiving her early education in public schools. In 1881, she enrolled at the Augusta Female Academy in Staunton, Virginia, now Mary Baldwin College. Upon finishing, Miss Jarvis returned to Grafton where she taught school for seven years.

From childhood, Anna Jarvis often heard her mother say that she hoped that someone would one day establish a memorial for all mothers, living and dead. One incident in particular was a driving force in keeping this wish alive. The incident occurred during a class prayer given by Mrs. Jarvis in the presence of her daughter, Anna, then age twelve, at the conclusion of Mrs. Jarvis' lesson on "Mothers of the Bible." She closed the lesson with the prayer "I hope that someone, sometime will found a memorial mothers day commemorating her for the matchless service she renders to humanity in every field of life. She is entitled to it." Anna never forgot that prayer, and at her mother's graveside service, Anna's brother Claude heard her recall that prayer and say "...by the grace of God, you shall have that Mothers Day."

After the death of her father in 1902, Anna Jarvis along with her mother and sister Lillie, had moved to Philadelphia to reside with her brother Claude. After her mother's death on May 9, 1905, Miss Jarvis began an intense campaign of fulfill the wish of her mother.

On the first anniversary of her mother's death, May 9, 1906, Miss Jarvis, with some friends, reviewed the outstanding accomplishments of her mother brought about through her Mothers Day Work Clubs that were established prior to the Civil War. After this, Miss Jarvis wrote to Mr. Norman F. Kendall of Grafton asking him to organize a Mothers Day Memorial Committee from her mother's coworkers at the Andrews Church and asked them to pass a resolution favoring the founding of Mothers Day. Mr. Kendall carried out this request, and the resolution was passed. On the second anniversary of Mrs. Jarvis' death, May 12, 1907, a memorial service was held for her at the Andrews church.

Miss Jarvis employed every means available to her to achieve her goal of establishing the observance of Mothers Day nationally. She wrote hundreds of letters to legislators, executives, and businessmen on both state and national levels. She was a fluent speaker and passed up no opportunity to promote her project. Most of her appeals fell on deaf ears. Her first real break came from her appeal to the great merchant and philanthropist, John Wanamaker of Philadelphia. With his influence and support, the movement gained momentum. On May 10, 1908, the third anniversary of Mrs. Jarvis' death, fully-prepared programs were held at the Andrews Methodist Episcopal Church in Grafton and in Philadelphia, launching the observance of a general memorial day for all mothers.

The Grafton service was planned and prepared by Miss Jarvis She sent a telegram, read by Mr. L. L. Loar, which defined the purpose of the day:

"...To revive the dormant filial love and gratitude we owe to those who gave us birth. To be a home tie for the absent. To obliterate family estrangement. To create a bond of brotherhood through the wearing of a floral badge. To make us better children by getting us closer to the hearts of our good mothers. To brighten the lives of good mothers. To have them know we appreciate them, though we do not show it as often as we ought... Mothers Day is to remind us of our duty before it is too late.

"This day is intended that we may make new resolutions for a more active thought to our dear mothers. By words, gifts, acts of affection, and in every way possible, give her pleasure, and make her heart glad every day, and constantly keep in memory Mothers Day; when you made this resolution, lest you forget and neglect your dear mother, if absent from home write her often, tell her of a few of her noble good qualities and how you love her.

'A mother's love is new every day.'

"God bless our faithful good mothers. "

The Honorable Ira E. Robinson, a member of the congregation, offered a resolution asking that the Andrews Church set aside the second Sunday of May each year as Mothers Day. The resolution was immediately adopted and from then on the Andrews Methodist Episcopal Church became the Mother Church of Mothers Day.

Mr. John Wanamaker presided over the Mothers Day service held in the Wanamaker Store Auditorium in Philadelphia in the afternoon of May 10, 1908. The auditorium had a capacity of 5,000, but over 15,000 sought entrance. Miss Jarvis spoke eloquently for an hour and ten minutes. It was truly a great occasion for her and her friends.

An official Mothers Day Committee was selected and sanctioned by Miss Jarvis. The members were: Mr. John Wanamaker, Mr. H. J. Heinz, Claude S. Jarvis, Anna Jarvis, and Norman F. Kendall, authorized Mothers Day historian. The committee mapped out future plans for extending the Mothers Day institution on an international scale.

The adoption of Mothers Day spread more rapidly than even Miss Jarvis expected. In 1909, forty-five states, Puerto Rico, Hawaii, Canada and Mexico observed the day by appropriate services and the wearing of white and red carnations. She remarked "where it will end must be left for the future to tell. That it will girdle the globe seems now certain."

The first Mothers Day proclamation was issued by Governor William E. Glasscock of West Virginia on April 26, 1910. In May 1914 Representative Heflin of Alabama and Senator Sheppard of Texas introduced a joint resolution, at the request of Miss Jarvis, naming the second Sunday in May as Mothers Day, and the resolution was passed in both Houses. President Woodrow Wilson approved it, and William Jennings Bryan, Secretary of State, proclaimed it. In the President's proclamation which followed, he ordered that the flag be displayed on all government buildings in the U.S. and foreign possessions. Later Mr. Heflin, co-author of the resolution said: "The flag was never used in a more beautiful and sacred cause than when flying above that tender, gentle army, the mothers of America."

Miss Jarvis spent many years and much of her fortune promoting the Mothers Day movement, however in her later years, she was confronted with a problem that required as much or more time and effort as the establishment of Mothers Day. This was her attempt to thwart commercialization of the day, or otherwise exploiting it for extraneous purposes. She did not succeed in preventing such an outcome.

Miss Jarvis spent her later years caring for her invalid sister, Lillie, and attending flowers on her mother's grave. After her sister's death in 1944, Miss Jarvis was very much alone and because of her declining health, her many friends placed her in the Marshall Square Sanitarium in West Chester, Pennsylvania. It was here that Anna Jarvis died on November 24, 1948 at the age of 84. She is interred beside her mother in West Laurel Hill Cemetery in Philadelphia. On the day of her burial, she was remembered in Grafton when the bell on the Andrews Church was tolled eighty-four times in her honor.


Date: 14 May 2002
Time: 15:23:23

Comments

Mike in Soddy Daisy

I got your post, yes good to know others share the same issues amd life challenges. If you fancy a longer chat e-mail me at {my first name}@{my surname}.com

Cheers

Adam Hawkes, in Hertford UK