Date: 05 Apr 2002
Time: 12:57:01
I was once asked to be part of a panel for a college class -- it was one of those community flareups on certain books in public libraries and whether they belonged on the shelves, and whether teachers should have permission to require their students to read those books. We struggled while the argument followed the free speech/censorship battle lines. Then I remembered something from my own college days, in communications theory class.
Basically, no one can know everything about everything -- we are not capable of receiving all the information that is out there, in all the forms it comes to us. By design and necessity, we form our own "gates" for receiving information (readily observed in that we are all born with the capacity to speak any language and to make all vocal sounds, but after a certain age we lose that ability -- and yet can still speak one language very well). How we interpret the world, and the information that we do take in, is determined by what comes through our "gates." The discussion began in earnest when we recognized that teachers are by necessity "gatekeepers" responsible for what comes into their class room, since no one can teach everything to everyone all the time.
Jesus is the gate by which we are to understand the world. We are the gatekeepers of the kingdom, and we either bring the people in through the gate/Jesus, or we are thieves and bandits. We lead our people out into the world through Jesus, or they are stuck in the sheepfold, where they will either starve, cut off from the green pastures and still waters; or overwhelm us as we try to keep them hand-fed.
OLAS
Date: 08 Apr 2002
Time: 09:21:39
Thank you, OLAS, that helps! Got me started in a direction about authentic faith/life and true love... LaLuz in Texas
Date: 08 Apr 2002
Time: 17:42:51
I am going to add the text with feed my sheep to this too. We are celebrating two big missional finacial goal acheived. I am making sheep ears for the kids,(headbands, cotton balls and hot glue.) I am going to try to have the children's sermon be the start of the adult sermon and flow from one to another. DS here to hear me preach that day so please pray, I will be nervous. Nancy-WI
Date: 09 Apr 2002
Time: 08:54:44
we all have the job of tending the sheep. the question is do we see our selves as a hireling or as the one who's wellbeing is really tied with the sheep? Manzel
Date: 09 Apr 2002
Time: 09:02:48
Nancy, I know the feeling about having the DS show up.
I can't find or remember exactly the preache and the king, someone else help us out. Before he stepped into the pulpit, someone from the vestry told the preacher, The King is listening!
He came into the pulpit, and repeated the words.
Then he said his own name, and said, God Is listening.
[It worked for me, I then asked the DS to pray for me as we tried to listen to God together.]
[I will be praying for you Sunday} WD in NC
Date: 09 Apr 2002
Time: 21:30:34
Thank you OLAS for the thoughts about "gatekeepers". In the Uniting church that has a fairly negative connotation, normally used to refer to the power-players of the church, but maybe I can rescue it. I like the idea that we are gatekeepers of the Kingdom. However, I have a couple of questions about this text. The part that I love is verse 10, "I came that they may have life and have it abundantly." Yet the image is of a fairly narrow way - where is the "life-giving" word for our congregations and communties? I am also pondering about who are the thieves and bandits? Are they the Pharisees? In which case, this is intrinsically linked the image of blindness (in 9:40 and 10:21) and maybe their inability to see God's grace and hence they've misled the people with their misunderstanding of God's law??? There seems to be a very thin line between the word of grace/life here and a word of judgement. Rob in Australia
Date: 10 Apr 2002
Time: 06:04:40
Does anybody else see this passage as a vehicle to talk about the current clergy sex scandals in the Catholic church (though they exist in all denominations, the media's just focusing on the RC's)?? -- Mike in Maryland
Date: 10 Apr 2002
Time: 13:24:29
I am preparing to do a semon for a preaching class on this text and I checked the previous discussions. I would highly recommend those past entries as the week they were written were in the week of the Columbine High shootings. During the coverage of that horrible event I was in the delivery room of a hospital giving birth to my now nearly three year old daughter. God sends new life even in the midst of tragedy. Life more abundantly even when the thieves try to destroy hope and life. God Bless! I will be ready in a couple of weeks for my sermon thanks to my professor.
Marci in the Mountains of Arkansas
Date: 10 Apr 2002
Time: 19:54:24
Rob in Aus. The thief that comes only to steal and kill and destroy sounds alot like satan. Prayin in TX
Date: 11 Apr 2002
Time: 08:28:47
Mike I am not certain how this fits, unfortunately the shephard in sexual abuse cases are often those who know their victims by name. pondering. Nancy-WI
Date: 11 Apr 2002
Time: 08:29:28
love the King thing! about the DS. thanks Nancy-Wi
Date: 11 Apr 2002
Time: 11:23:10
This scripture is for me only part of the larger picture painted by the 23rd psalm.
Date: 11 Apr 2002
Time: 11:26:14
Guess if I were going to preach on clergy abouse (of which the sexual abuse scandals are only a part) I would contrast the hireling with the good shepherd and the larger picture of trust and well bgeing found in Psalm 23.
Date: 13 Apr 2002
Time: 04:56:58
If anyone is going to preach about the relationship of clergy (as shepherds) to Christ the Shepherd, think on this...
My pastoral theology instructor at Church Divinity School of the Pacific was the Rev. Dr. Charles Taylor. Fr. Charles disliked calling parish clergy "shepherds" because, he said, there is only one Shepherd. Instead, he suggested that the parish pastor is a sheepdog. While the Shepherd leads the flock, the sheepdog assists, keeping the flock bunched up, nipping at their heels, chasing after the stragglers.
I've always preferred to think of myself that way -- as the sheepdog. It certainly is a less demanding position, though still a lot of hard work.
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 13 Apr 2002
Time: 16:38:10
Thanks Eric for the sheep dog image. Confusing the pastor with the shepherd always seemed like trouble. The only thing worse is to confuse people with sheep. Manzel
Date: 14 Apr 2002
Time: 05:50:10
Yes...the Shepherd leads the flock, but I, also, like the "sheepdog", "sheepassistant" symbolism. Like Manzel's statement about confusining sheep with people. It's been my experience in the pastorate that once in a while you find sheep that bite and will try to lead others in the flock away. Preacher in ks.
Date: 14 Apr 2002
Time: 10:54:12
I was thinking of Jesus words, "I have sheep in other folds" I know Mormans have placed a big claim on this verse for their idea that the resurected Christ appeared also in ancient America.
What meanings do we find today for Jesus words about his having sheep in other folds?
Date: 14 Apr 2002
Time: 12:36:36
Erik in KS,
As often as I can I make a retreat to a small benedictine Roman Catholic monastery outside of Elmira, New York. The brothers are shepherds, they raise hundreds of sheep. They have a few sheepdogs (I love that image from Fr. Charles Taylor), but the monks have a new hireling .... a donkey .. a jackass (now there is truly my symbol. The donkey heards, leads, protects, the individual sheep as well as the heard from young wolves, etc. It is truly amazing to see a small heard resting in a field with a jackass resting beside them, and when it is time to move on, the jackass gets up, snorts, kicks, and off they go.
So there you have it an image for the church's mission.
tom in ga
Date: 14 Apr 2002
Time: 12:38:21
Erik in KS,
As often as I can I make a retreat to a small benedictine Roman Catholic monastery outside of Elmira, New York. The brothers are shepherds, they raise hundreds of sheep. They have a few sheepdogs (I love that image from Fr. Charles Taylor), but the monks have a new hireling .... a donkey .. a jackass (now there is truly my symbol. The donkey heards, leads, protects, the individual sheep as well as the heard from young wolves, etc. It is truly amazing to see a small heard resting in a field with a jackass resting beside them, and when it is time to move on, the jackass gets up, snorts, kicks, and off they go.
So there you have it an image for the church's mission.
tom in ga
Date: 14 Apr 2002
Time: 12:39:32
Erik in KS,
As often as I can I make a retreat to a small benedictine Roman Catholic monastery outside of Elmira, New York. The brothers are shepherds, they raise hundreds of sheep. They have a few sheepdogs (I love that image from Fr. Charles Taylor), but the monks have a new hireling .... a donkey .. a jackass (now there is truly my symbol. The donkey heards, leads, protects, the individual sheep as well as the heard from young wolves, etc. It is truly amazing to see a small heard resting in a field with a jackass resting beside them, and when it is time to move on, the jackass gets up, snorts, kicks, and off they go.
So there you have it an image for the church's mission.
tom in ga
Date: 14 Apr 2002
Time: 12:41:03
Erik in KS,
As often as I can I make a retreat to a small benedictine Roman Catholic monastery outside of Elmira, New York. The brothers are shepherds, they raise hundreds of sheep. They have a few sheepdogs (I love that image from Fr. Charles Taylor), but the monks have a new hireling .... a donkey .. a jackass (now there is truly my symbol. The donkey heards, leads, protects, the individual sheep as well as the heard from young wolves, etc. It is truly amazing to see a small heard resting in a field with a jackass resting beside them, and when it is time to move on, the jackass gets up, snorts, kicks, and off they go.
So there you have it an image for the church's mission.
tom in ga
Date: 14 Apr 2002
Time: 14:22:33
tom in ga ... I think I got the point (4x) ... lol
You wrote: "It is truly amazing to see a small heard resting in a field with a jackass resting beside them, and when it is time to move on, the jackass gets up, snorts, kicks, and off they go. -- So there you have it an image for the church's mission."
And of the clergy?
Another wonderful image for the assisting animal is the llama. Sheepherders in my native Nevada have started using them as guard animals -- they seem to be fearless. I preached a sermon on First Lent 1999 about this entitled "Be a Llama for Lent". In it I wrote, "I don't know if llamas are dumber than sheep or smarter, but whichever, llamas don't appear to be afraid of anything. When they see something, they put their head up and walk straight toward it. That is aggressive behavior as far as the coyote is concerned, and they won't have anything to do with that... Coyotes are opportunists, and llamas take that opportunity away."
The rest of the sermon is at http://www.stfrancis-ks.org/subpages/asermons/lentone.htm
Blessings, Eric in KS
PS to tom in ga -- there is no "K" in "Eric" -- only the benighted Scandinavians spell it that way. ;-)
Date: 14 Apr 2002
Time: 17:52:05
Knowing the voice of the shepherd is a means of voluntary sorting; several herds of sheep could stay together in a commons area and instead of shepherds trying to drive sheep and seperate them individually a shepherd would start out, call his sheep and they sorted themselves. Therefore trying to claim this scripture as authority for playing the roll of gatekeeper is an image of forcefulness and is contraty to the image in the parable.
Date: 14 Apr 2002
Time: 18:05:21
a good parable is like a good joke. It draws one in, then breaks into a new perspective and there is an ah ha. John does not seem to understand Jesus as a master of telling parables because he protrays Jesus like a comedian whose audience does not get it.
Date: 14 Apr 2002
Time: 18:07:35
When we try to turn Jesus parables into allegories we get into all kinds of trouble.
Date: 14 Apr 2002
Time: 19:31:54
Like the image of the sheep dog and the jackass! Sometimes I am one, more often I am the ass.
The references to sexual abuse applies to the theives and the bandits; they rob the innocence of the trusting fold. I have been dealing with clergy sexual misconduct in almost all my appointments, and it makes me weep at all the pain this has caused in so many lives for so long!
I think the image of the shepherd being Jesus is right on, we may attempt to follow this model but we are not finally the shepherd of the flock. I also agree that when we see the folks of the church as sheep we dehumanize them and discount their gifts, graces and talents. Been thinking of a title like "Sheep Doggie Dog" ( but maybe wrong image!?
A W-G rocky coast Me
Date: 15 Apr 2002
Time: 06:01:46
A simple 86.86 metre hymn if anyone would like to use it. Blessings, Petereo.
When strangers yell or thieves deceive You wonder who you’ll trust Jesus the shepherd calms our fear He's gentle and he's just.
As shepherd watching over us He calls each one by name His voice is all we need to hear For that is why he came.
A gate will keep the flock as one We’ll find that peace is there Though danger lurk outside the walls We’re nurtured by his care.
“I am the gate. Draw near through me.” Our Lord his arms so wide Enfolds us in his saving love And gives us hope inside.
Date: 15 Apr 2002
Time: 06:27:33
Are we pastors hirelings? Here's a relevant quote to the question: "He who serves God for money will serve the devil for higher wages." (I've known it so long I've forgotten who said it!) John in VA
Date: 15 Apr 2002
Time: 07:04:03
I find it of interest that even in using the shepherd-as-gate metaphor Jesus stands the common understanding on its head. He says that his sheep will enter through him ("the gate"), but the common practice of Middle Eastern shepherds of being "the gate" of their sheepfolds was to prevent the sheep from going through. Sheepfolds (a sort of corral) were built of stone with one opening. At night the sheep would be herded inside and then the shepherd would make his bed in the opening. The sheep would not step over him to leave, nor would strange animals do so to enter. Thus, the shepherd-gate was a barrier, not an entry. Thus, verse 9 is another of Jesus's "reversals" of the usual order of things.
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 15 Apr 2002
Time: 07:20:34
I am a bit confused! As I read this passage, I can not find Jesus refering to himself as the Shephard in it. He calls himself the gate keeper. Is a gate keeper the same as a shephard? if so why do the vs "The one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep". Doesn't this make anyone who enter the shephard too! How many shephard's to a flock here. Who then are the sheep. I am really tired so maybe all this will make sense after a nap! all enlightenment is welcome. Nancy-WI
Date: 15 Apr 2002
Time: 08:07:04
Nancy -
I think yes. He's speaking allegorically, of course - which, come to think of it, is unusual for him to do without saying "I am the shepherd" like "I am the light," according to John.
I read a commentary (can't remember which, I'm breezing through on the way to my tax preparer's - ugh) that suggests ONLY Jesus is the shepherd, the gate keeper. The shepherd would lie down over the opening or gateway when there wasn't a literal gate in order to tend the flocks, according to this commentary. The suggestion in THIS commentary is that it is potentially dangerous that we, "entrusted with Word and Sacrament," (as another commentator suggests) equate ourselves with being the shepherd, or gatekeeper.
So, there's the fly in the ointment - and I'm off to do taxes. Fortunately, this will be the last year they have to be all screwed up: my new church has a treasurer who knows what she's doing!!! yay!
Where I am this week: our conference is preparing to do a service of racial reconciliation. While I have my own opinions, I know that they're different from the opinions of many of my congregants. I also am caucasian speaking to a dual-ethnic congregation and don't want to be condescending or condemning to anyone. Any suggestions? Am I asking for the world and a song? This is where the rubber hits the road in my own leadership.
Sorry for rambling ... off to taxes ...
Sally in GA
Date: 15 Apr 2002
Time: 09:07:26
I have never been able to preach these 'sheep' passages without remembering something a farmer said to me one Sunday. After preaching a lovely sermon about 'Jesus the shepherd', my farmer came up to me after worship and said, "You know pastor, the one thing you left out was that sheep are as dumb as posts."
It changes one's perspective as we read that Jesus was calling us a flock of sheep!
TB in MN
Date: 15 Apr 2002
Time: 10:04:28
No nap yet, but a thoughtful drive to town to mail the 1st quarterly payment! Sheep must have been very valuable to the culture. They provided wool, meat, maybe milk, skins for covering(maybe tents) and bones (for needles?) So to be a shephard while not an outstanding profession, had to be important. Right or wrong?
Sally, is the reconcillation for the wrongs of the past or present or both? Have you been given any liturgy? The Gifts of Many Cultures has some good stuff in it. Nancy-Wi
Date: 15 Apr 2002
Time: 10:05:44
Sally just an afterthought my book is not here but sometimes some of Joyce Rupp's stuff might help. Nancy-Wi
Date: 15 Apr 2002
Time: 11:22:30
Hello, I think I am going to Concentrate of Peter next Sunday... But I like your ideas, Well, GOd's ideas actually... My Liturgist will read the Gospel Lesson, I may tie in some gleanings.... Title of my sermon "Coming Home" And describing what coming home means here on earth to differ people child, teen, young adult, elder... I reflect on that Theologian- Forrest Gump for wisdom, in the scene where Jenny throws rock at her girlhood home--and abuse was there at a dad's hands. "Sometimes there's just not enough rocks!" We have been bruised, wounded, hurt physical, mentally, emotionally and that effects our spirit---Peter passage reminds us Jesus was abuse and said nothing! ON earth their may not be enough rocks, However, we a the Great Rock to turn to and He can fix things! On Christ the Solid rock I Stand, On Christ the solid rock I can---overcome! It matters not where you come from or what you did... Like Last week's passage said Believe ,repent and be baptized and recieve! ( I think knowing this helps us with RC priest sex scandel, too.) Christ took the abuse and died and arose for all of us...prositutes, rich poor, politicans, regular joes, and HE even died for Arafat, and Bin Laden...all they have to do is accept!!! Ladypreacher in OHIO--- BLESSINGS NANCY IN WI DS a coming.... Keep me in prayer Apr 28th I get to be a visiting pastor and preach in my HOME Church...so this Coming Home Theme....is making me mediate on next week message...
Date: 15 Apr 2002
Time: 14:05:18
tom in ga: I live right down the country road from the monastery you speak of near Elmira, NY. It is a beautiful, pastoral area. If you were so inclined, I would welcome a visit on a future trip to Mt. Savior.
My email is bsbement@stny.rr.com - Betty in NY
Date: 15 Apr 2002
Time: 18:24:21
Jesus may think of us a sheep ("dumb as posts"), but the lectionary committee has great respect not only for our memories but also for the regularity of our attendance (although it apparently has some doubts about our attention span!). We read John 10 in thirds: the beginning in Year A, the middle in Year B, and the end in Year C, all on 4 Easter. It's in verse 11 (NEXT year's reading) that he says "I am the good shepherd."
Date: 15 Apr 2002
Time: 20:47:23
Betty in NY and Tom in GA - (Off topic) I visited your monastery a couple of years ago while a guest of Don Hoff whom I met on dps - consider yourself invited to visit him - Riverside United Methodist Church in Elmira. Well, who am I to invite you? The border collie, of course - I have this compulsion to nip heels until all the dps-ers mill about in one corrall.
Back on topic: Let's be careful not to over-allegorize this passage, lest some of us wind up as lamb chops.
I could use some help with the 1 Peter passage - for some reason I chose it as my text for a sermon in a friend's church. Come on over ..
kbc in sc
Date: 16 Apr 2002
Time: 05:54:24
Nancy-WI ... about your question about who's the shepherd if Jesus is the gate/gatekeeper -- Herbert O'Driscoll in his three-vol. set of books for the readings of Year A "The Word Among Us" writes thusly about this pericope:
"In this gospel passage, John is recalling Jesus' description of those who hold responsibiity for the leadership of God's people. They are genuine in their motivation for leadership; their primary concern is the people under their care. In our Lord's language they enter _by the gate [because they are] the shepherd of the sheep_. Such a leader can be trusted and followed, and knows people as individuals: _he calls his own sheep by name_. However, the community must beware of fals leaders who arise this a _thief_ or _bandit_. They come _only to steal and kill and destroy_. They use their leadership as a means to power and influence for themselves. True followers, like true sheep, can distinguish the genuine leader from the false. Towards the end of the passage John makes the offer that Christian faith holds out to those who, following the true leader, embrace it. They _will be saved_ and _find pasture_ (nurture) ... _they [will] have life, and have it abundantly_."
O'Driscoll, Herbert, "The Word Among Us", Year A, Vol. 2, Toronto: Anglican Book Centre, 1999, page 77.
I still don't like talking about parish clergy as "shepherds", however. (And even less do I like thinking of us as "hirelings" -- nobody in their right mind would do this for the money!)
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 16 Apr 2002
Time: 06:03:54
Oops... I shouldn't try to type early in the morning.... One sentence in that quote from O'Driscoll needs correction. It should be --
"However, the community must beware of false leaders who arise like a _thief_ or _bandit_."
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 16 Apr 2002
Time: 06:44:31
Greetings! It's been a while since I've been in this discussion group. The church I was serving closed last fall (some of you may recall), but I have been given another assignment. Again, the church is struggling (aren't they all?), but I believe this patient will pull through ... with more help from God than me, of course. At any rate, I've told them to "Burn The Ships" and head out on a "Vision Quest." I thought I knew where I was going this week, but after hitting this board beleive I'm now being lead otherwise. I like what I'm gleaning from this passage: The picture of the shepherd as one who lays in front of the door (lays down his life) to keep the sheep in, while keeping the world and its sin out ("My prayer is not that you take them out of the world, but that you protect them from the evil one." John 17:15) The image of the pastor as sheepdog rather than shepherd is marvelous. How about an image of the Holy Spirit as the "gatekeeper?" Just now getting into all of this and only God knows where it will go. Thanks! PastorBuzz
Date: 16 Apr 2002
Time: 07:27:31
Some early thoughts:
Verses 11-14 feel like vital pieces to 1-10, I don't see how I can preach 1-10 without 11-14.
Jesus is the good shepherd, that's a given. Church leaders who serve the Lord are allowed into the gate, making them part of Jesus' flock too.
Those who falsely claim church authority (leadership) sneak in; they are to be recognized and ignored. Primarily because it is only the good shepherd's voice that the flock (should) listen too (distractions happen but we must return to the master's voice).
For church leaders, don't we assist, the sheepdog image works, but wouldn't the sheepdogs lie at the gate(keeping watch over their flock by night)((sorry)) with the shepherd also?
I have an image of a church where the "churchleaders", a.e. our congregations, have gathered to worship at the altar,(the church/the gate with Jesus) to be encouraged, praised, and reassured by the shepherd for work well done and yet to be done. What a wonderful sense of comfort the hard working sheepdogs must recieve when they rest at the side of the master and receive a pat on the head and a gently spoken, "Well done good and faithful servant."
As churchleaders do we not rest with the good shepherd also, but yet constantly have a wary eye on those who have slipped in?
FYI-- We use to live in Idaho where sheep are abundant. When you pet a sheep's wool, which has lanolin, the oil gets on your hands. It is a soothing lotion for those who have rough dry hands from the arid climate of the west. Soooo As the flock which belongs to Jesus, should not our presence be soothing, healing, etc. to those who have been left rough and sore from the enviroment of the secular world? Maybe that's a stretch for this passage, but file it away under 'trivial'.
Well, I told you they were early thoughts. Thanks for the entrys for this weeks text, they are very interesting and helpful, as usual. God Bless LB in NC
Date: 16 Apr 2002
Time: 08:37:14
One of my commentaries (sorry, don't have it with me so I can't give you the reference) had something to say about Jesus as both gate and shepherd that I find helpful. "There are two ways of viewing Jesus, as the Door and as the Good Shepherd. As the Door He is the one way of entrance to salvation. As the Good Shepherd He is the One who cares for the sheep and provides for their salvation at the cost of His life." Jesus is the one who shows the way and is the way.
Steph in SD
Date: 16 Apr 2002
Time: 09:03:54
10:9 I am the gate. Whoever enters by me will be saved, and will come in and go out and find pasture.
How do I enter? What must I do to be saved? I hunger for green pastures! I seek the Lord. Where do I enter?
tom in ga
Date: 16 Apr 2002
Time: 09:22:40
I'm just about to finish up my 7th year of service and even in that relatively short time I've been accused of being one of the "thieves," and I've also discouraged others whom I thought were "thieves" from taking too strong a leadership role, one time with difficult ramifications.
Isn't it interesting how easy it is for us to draw the gate around sheep and how we always include ourselves "inside" the gate and not as one of the wolves or thieves? While at the same time someone else is drawing themselves inside and us outside?
food for thought ...
Sally in GA
Date: 16 Apr 2002
Time: 09:29:24
Nancy in WI -
I don't know what form this will take. I think it wil be along the lines of General Conference 2000. I rather doubt, based on who I see is planning the worship, that there will be any intentional accusatory or condescending tones taken. I also know that many folks will perceive one of those kinds of tones nonetheless.
Sally in GA
Date: 16 Apr 2002
Time: 10:00:11
Eric, your wisdom has helped me with sermon prep more times than I deserve. I too have heard of the sheepdog as more appropriate for pastors than that of shepherd (our bishop preached on it once). But that makes me think also of "Babe," the little pig sheepdog whose leadership style was very different from the usual sheep dog's snarl.
Thank you for all your contributions! CEinCO
Date: 16 Apr 2002
Time: 11:18:08
CE ... thanks for the compliment.
Blessings, Eric in KS (also a "CE". I was sort of named after my grandfather who was called "C.E." his entire life by everyone except my grandmother, who called him "Edgar".)
Date: 16 Apr 2002
Time: 13:38:24
Several years ago while at a grade school I used kids sitting in a open circle and placed my body across the entrance to the circle to help illustrate this passage from John. So many older people told me it helped them to understand Jesus as the shepherd I plan to use it again this year. I am in a new parish and have lots of younger folks here to get involved as stones and sheep. It might lead to a little comment about the type of person who gives their life in service to others. Rahner said or at least I think it was Rahner that priests are men not angels......while it is terrible sad that so many people have been abused, we priests are abused now by others because of the actions of a few sick men. May God fogive them and may we all learn to love as Jesus did. old priest in Iowa
Date: 16 Apr 2002
Time: 13:39:00
Several years ago while at a grade school I used kids sitting in a open circle and placed my body across the entrance to the circle to help illustrate this passage from John. So many older people told me it helped them to understand Jesus as the shepherd I plan to use it again this year. I am in a new parish and have lots of younger folks here to get involved as stones and sheep. It might lead to a little comment about the type of person who gives their life in service to others. Rahner said or at least I think it was Rahner that priests are men not angels......while it is terrible sad that so many people have been abused, we priests are abused now by others because of the actions of a few sick men. May God fogive them and may we all learn to love as Jesus did. old priest in Iowa
Date: 16 Apr 2002
Time: 15:02:36
Hi, I am looking for a children's story for Good Shepherd Sunday about how God counts. The story says God counts us "One, one, one ..." God counts each one of us as though there was only one of us. Thanks LGB
Date: 16 Apr 2002
Time: 17:28:48
Eric, thanks. I have decide since our worship will be a celebration of our paying apportionment in full and our pledge to dicipleship (one time thing) in full, that I am using the feed my lambs, tend my sheep and feed my sheep in conjuction with part of this passage. I am mainly talking about being call by name, and by responding, our obedience to God, creates opportunities for the Holy Spirit to break into lives creating miracles. I have a sheepskin for the kids to touch and lamb ears (well I hope they stay together) to wear. I will show them the shephard lying down at the gate. And talk about calling each by name. (Don't know all their names yet.) It will be a strange blend of children's sermon moving right into the adult time. Thanks to all of you as this sermon keeps forming I know that God works through each of you.
Sally, you are between a rock and a hard place, may the Holy Spirit be with you enforce! Nancy
Date: 16 Apr 2002
Time: 18:50:05
Prayer Request:
My mother died November 18, 2001. My mother-in-law died March 26, 2002. Last Saturday I took my dad to the hospital (still in) with asthma problems. He will probably not be able to return home (only God knows). My wife and I are both only children and we could use your prayers for my dad and also for us, who are struggling. PH in OH
Date: 16 Apr 2002
Time: 20:02:18
PH in OH
My prayers are with you.
Michelle
Date: 16 Apr 2002
Time: 20:11:32
I am not preaching this Sunday, as our Synod Assembly is meeting, but I did write a Bible Study guide for the adult class to go through.
In it, I see this lection as containing two different metaphores, with a great transitional verse. In the first, Jesus is the shepherd, even though he doesn't make that claim directly. But then, verse six says,
"Jesus used this figure of speech with them, but they did not understand what he was saying to them."
They didn't understand, so he switched gears, to come at it from a different direction.
In the first story, he could not be both the gatekeeper and the shepherd, because he says the gatekeeper recognizes the shepherd, so they have to be two different people. He is the one who cares best for the sheep, because they are his, and he knows them by name.
In the second story, where he no longer speaks of himself as the shepherd, he himself is the gate. Since sheep cannot climb, they can do nothing without using the gate. They need Jesus to go in to safety for the night. They need Jesus to go out to pasture for nourishment in the daytime. In short, they need Jesus for everything. Without Jesus they have nothing.
Two different stories to illustrate our need for Jesus. I don't think we should confuse them.
Michelle
Date: 16 Apr 2002
Time: 21:25:29
Hi Sally, I am not a pastor. I get on this site to understand the scriptures better. Now, I don't feel bad when I think my pastor's a jackass, now I know he is one. (sorry if this is sick humor) If I were a pastor I would preach a lovely sermon on reconcilation before coming to the alter. Then I would have the church sing the song that says. I don't care what church you belong to. Nor do I care about the color of your skin. If your heart like mine belongs to Jesus. Give me your hand and my brother you'll be. (Everyone would go around shaking hands.) Give me your hand. Give me your hand. Give me your hand and my brother you'll be. Then I'd have someone lead it in Spanish. No me importa la iglesia que vayas, si detras del Calvario estas. Si tu Corazon es como el mio. Dame la mano y mi hermano seras.
Date: 17 Apr 2002
Time: 06:15:54
Credo Hispano
Creemos en Dios Padre todopoderoso, creador de los cielos y de la tierra; creador de los pueblos y las culturas; creador de los idiomas y de las razas.
Creemos en Jesucristo, su Hijo, nuestro Señor, Dios hecho carne en un ser humano para todos los humanos; Dios hecho carne en un momento para todas las edades; Dios hecho carne en una cultura para todas las culturas; Dios hecho carne en amor y gracia para toda la creación.
Creemos en el Espíritu Santo, por quien el Dios encarnado en Jesucristo se hace presente en nuestro pueblo y nuestra cultura; por quien el dios creado de todo cuanto existe dos da poder para ser nuevas criaturas; quien con sus infinitos dones, nos hace un solo pueblo: el cuerpo de Jesucristo.
Creemos en la Iglesia, que es universal porque es señal del reino venidero; que es más fiel mientras más se viste de colores; donde todos los colores pintan un mismo paisaje; donde todos los idiomas cantan una misma alabanza.
Creemos en el reino venidero, día de la gran fiesta, cuando todos los colores de la creación se unirán en un arco iris de armonía; cuando todos los pueblos de la tierra se unirán en un banquete de alegría; cuando todas las lenguas del universo se unirán en un coro de alabanza.
Y porque creemos, nos comprometemos a creer por los que no creen, a amar por los que no aman, a soñar por los que no sueñan, hasta que lo que esperamos se torne realidad. Amén. Justo González From Mil Voces UMC
wd in wnc
Date: 17 Apr 2002
Time: 06:20:47
Hispanic Creed English translation
We believe in God, the Father Almighty Creator of the heavens and the earth; Creator of all peoples and all cultures; Creator of all tongues and races.
We believe in Jesus Christ, his Son, our Lord, God made flesh in a person for all humanity, God made flesh in an age for all the ages, God made flesh in one culture for all cultures. God made flesh in love and grace for all creation.
We believe in the Holy Spirit through whom God incarnate in Jesus Christ makes his presence know in our peoples and our cultures; through whom, God Creator of all that exists, gives us power to become new creatures; whose infinite gifts make us one people; the Body of Christ.
We believe in the Church universal because it is a sign of God’s Reign, whose faithfulness is shown in its many hues where all the colors paint a single landscape, where all tongues sing the same praise.
We believe in the Reign of God -- the day of the Great Fiesta when all the colors of creation will form a harmonious rainbow, when all peoples will join in a joyful banquet, when all tongues of the universe will sing the same song.
And because we believe, we commit ourselves: to believe for those who do not believe, to love for those who do not love, to dream for those who do not dream, until the day when hope becomes reality. Amen. Justo González from Hispanic Hymnal UMC
wd in wnc
Date: 17 Apr 2002
Time: 06:52:41
PH-Ohio God hold you both in the palm of his hand. Nancy-Wi
Date: 17 Apr 2002
Time: 07:34:27
PH in OH
You are in our prayers.
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 17 Apr 2002
Time: 09:37:30
Psalm 23; John 10:1-10; 1 Peter 1: 3-9 April 25, 1999 Sermon A tourist watched a man driving a few sheep along a street. When the man was close enough to speak to the tourist said, “I thought that shepherds lead their sheep, not drive them the way you are. “That is true, Sir” replied the man. “I am a butcher, not a shepherd.” Instead of driving the sheep, pushing them along, Jesus knew that a shepherd led the flock. A shepherd was out ahead of the sheep, exploring, testing, searching for water, looking for fresh grazing grounds, prepared to fight wolves or other predators.
Do you remember memorizing the 23rd Psalm? I remember learning it as a child in Sunday School. The composer of this psalm, David had been through much of the worst life can dish out. Read 11 Samuel. This prayer, the 23rd Psalm, arises from maturity. This prayer speaks to the depths, the struggles, the things that happen, the thunderbolts, the threats to and the final crisis of the human condition, death. We may have learned it in Sunday school, but as we grow older we realize it deals with the full dimensions of our lives. It speaks to security in a troubled and threatening world. It affirms an ultimate confidence amid the shattering of all those things we count on. It testifies, finally, to faith in One who whatever life throws at us, including death itself, will, through everything, never let us go.
On this fourth Sunday of Easter, known in the church year as Good Shepherd Sunday, can you believe that? Can we be like the Psalmist, who sings with such confidence that the Lord is his shepherd? Do we know that when we go through the valley of the shadow there is One who stands with us? Can we be certain that in the face of our enemies, we have a Lord who will enable us to eat in confidence of Divine protection? David knows Divine love and hope cradle him forever--when catastrophe strikes, when death comes he rests securely in the everlasting arms. Can we really believe that?
In Littleton, Colorado tragedy struck—15 people are dead, more are injured, many more mourn. There are five Presbyterian churches in Littleton. These churches opened up their buildings for people to gather as they waited for information from the high school. The Presbytery of Denver sent in their staff to counsel with people. The Presbytery also called in a number of retired pastors to work with the grieving families and friends. God is working. So much seems to fly in the face of that testimony. So much in our lives seems to run against it. I am intrigued, especially this morning, with the little phrase of the Psalmist, "I will fear no evil." How many of us can say that?
I am thinking this morning of another fear: the fear of each other. The fear of evil that threatens us when we fail to love each other. Remember the wonderful affirmation in the letters of John: Love casts out fear, he writes. The opposite of love is not hate. The opposite of love is fear. Why? Because the evil we fear so often lies in the connections between us. Protestants burning Catholic churches this week in Northern Ireland. Fear! Kosovo refugees driven from their homes. Fear! Fear separates cities; it throws up walls among the races; it hurts churches; it erodes families.
Perfect love, says John, casts out fear. I do not know about you, but the hardest prayer it seems to me one can offer is the prayer we make for the one who does us injury, for the person who stirs us most with fear. "Gracious God," can we say it? "Gracious God, for my father, my mother, my daughter, my wife, my husband, my boss, that mysteriously estranged friend, anyone who has hurt me. Gracious God, I pray for him or for her, that they may know your joy and peace; that this day may be one of adventure and a sure knowledge of your grace; that they may know you care for them with an unfathomable love and desire their life may point toward goodness and prosperity. Forgive my failure, my weakness, my incapacity to love; dissolve my fear in your unmerited grace and kindness and grant me the strength to love them, a task I could not do without you." Perfect love casts out evil; it casts out fear.
President Clinton began a peace initiative 1993. At the signing of the Israeli-Palestinian peace accord at the White House he invited 46 Israeli and Arab boys to attend. They ranged in age from eleven to fourteen, and spent the close of the summer together at camp in Maine sponsored by a program called "Seeds for Peace." In Maine, each boy found himself matched with another from the opposite delegation in a sort of buddy system. Each boy arrived in camp well aware and probably overflowing with the terrible history and unimaginable pain experienced by his own people. Each had some one, a parent, grandparents or siblings. Each had known the threat of terrorists; each had been immersed for all of their lives in the propaganda, the prejudices, the furious and cruel images of the other, each of them, depending where they were from, immersed in stories of the holocaust on one hand, or, on the other, the random furies and massacres on the West Bank. An early exercise required these young boys to draw pictures of their buddies and exchange them. One of the Palestinian boys covered his picture with hearts, peace signs--and swastikas!
Crisis! Blowup! One boy, a cousin of Elie Weisel, began crying hysterically. A Palestinian boy could hardly believe his eyes and his ears. After all, this young Israeli was crying for ancestors he never knew, whereas he, the Palestinian, had lost siblings and cousins, immediate family. Chaos. Devastation. The group splintered. The experiment, thought one of its planners, down the drain. Wrong! Wrong! The crisis of tears, the mutual expression of pain, the pouring out of grief, the stuttering and stumbling out of stories did not finally separate these boys--these buddies. It drew them closer together. It united them through the forces dividing them. For the first time they saw their own tears in the eyes of the other. They heard an echo of their own story spill from the lips of the other. They realized a new kinship. And before they left Washington, three of the Palestinians asked if the final day's agenda might be changed so they could visit the Holocaust museum. Love casts out fear. Walking through the valley of the shadow, and death, separation, hatred, violence, betrayal--I will fear no evil, for you, who is Love, abide with me.
We began this morning with a word about trust, a reference to the Psalmist's assurance of his being sustained by God's love and hope. We touched these last few moments on how that confidence may be a component in healing the wounds separating us. Let me close with just a brief word--and a prayer, composed by a contemporary as he faced the ultimate insecurity of a world where the worst of our fears, sickness and death, would shout at us that they have the last word. Just as we would rest in the Divine love as we seek to reconcile ourselves with those from whom we are separated, so we confess with the Psalmist, under all circumstances, that whatever happens we shall dwell in the house of the Lord forever.
John Carmody testifies to that promise this way. John Carmody suffered cancer and died from it. From the beginning he was labeled "terminal." In the remaining months of his life he composed a little book of prayers he called, Psalms for Times of Trouble. One of them speaks with assurance of our present and future resting place. Do not turn aside from us, O God,/ now that we call to you in need. Do not hide your face forever while we languish without comfort. You have made us to seek your face and to ask for your help. You have made us to find here on Earth no lasting city. So you must yourself be our city the place where we love to dwell. And you must yourself be our refuge our shade in the heat of day our breeze in the cool of evening. There can be for us none but you. Without you we lack our reason to be. The best of friends cannot sustain us. The worst of enemies cannot ruin us. No matter what the circumstance you are our crux. In both good times and bad you are our measure and meaning. Be merciful to us, then, and respect what you have made. Take us from our depths into yourself-- your love from time out of mind. Make it right that for us there is you alone. Amen. There is a Guidepost article about "Seeds of Peace." I wasn't footnoting material back then. Sue in Cuba, KS
Date: 17 Apr 2002
Time: 09:43:34
It's amazing how much pain a people can carry. Spitak, Armenia is a city where even nature weeps. I was amazed that after 14 years, the results of the earthquake are still so stark, so dramatic. The containerized housing is still seen everywhere. With the loss of such life, about 1/3 of a population of 19,000, with the destruction of industry, with the full upheaval of the social order, even as the land itself buckled, the people have simply been able to find little rebirth.
Perhaps it was the lingering snow in the cracks and crevices that received no sun, perhaps was the low clouds blanketing the barren mountains, perhaps it was simply because pain of such magnitude can never be fully escaped, but the land, nature itself, seemed to weep as we moved around the city.
The newly built school, a statement of connection with other Christians, with others that sought in some way to minimize the pain, was a statement of hope in the midst of despair. We arrived and the children quickly gathered around us, pushing forward, eyeing our cameras and wanting to see what might be in our bags. Like children everywhere, their life was infectious, quickly transforming our gloomy mood into laugher and light. We moved from class to class, meeting teachers and enjoying the wonder of their collective spirit. One class of young children offered up an Armenian poem of hope and promise. Another older class sat shyly in their chairs only to explode in exuberant giggles as soon as we departed the room and the door safely closed behind us.
After a short while we made our way over to the old school, the one which was still being used for the high school students. It was a series of metal containerized classrooms linked together by a long enclosed foyer. Long rust stains ran down their dingy sides, like so many rivers of blood, proclaiming their demise as useful shelter. Like a rotting corpse, there was little life left for the harsh weather to suck out of them. Yet, used they were. For in several classes, there with exposed wiring and the pungent smell of moldy walls, children tried as best they could to claim some hold on the future, the reach a point of hope where little hope had existed.
It was there in that decomposing shell where I met him. It was hard to tell which was the most lifeless, the dieing building or the hollow eyes that looked beyond the haggard and battered face. Henri, had once been a teacher, back then, back before the bad times, back before the earth opened up and swallowed the life from this place. Each day he had brought these children of Armenia, new language and new perspective. Each day he had tought them of other cultures and histories and hopes. But now he said, "I can no longer teach, I can no longer go into that place where it happened."
He had been teaching a class of fifteen children when the earth began to shake. He stood in the front of class, there in that place where he had proclaimed truth, there in that place where he had offered story and future and vision. He stood there and watched as the floor above rained down upon the bodies of these young ones.
In what was almost a whisper, Henri offered, "I knew I would die. The floor fell around us and I knew I would die. But then, there was this small space that opened up around me. After the rumbling had stopped, I was lying in the rubble and I thought, 'Isn't this funny. I am not dead." I was pinned there for five hours until they came and dug me out, pinned beneath all the concrete and desks and bodies from the floor above. Eleven of my children died. Eleven, but then, that is such a small number of all of those who died.” As his bottom lip quivered, in small voice it was almost imperceptible, in the midst of a breath, the words struggled from the depths of his soul bearing his greatest pain, “Maybe you don't understand, but I can never teach again. I can never teach."
We stood looking up at the wind-swept mountains, watching as the cold, snow-filled clouds moved slowly down toward the valley. The frigid wind bit through my fleece-lined jacket. His lined weathered face was turned away from me. He continued, "I trusted the people who built the school. I trusted the people who said it was safe. I don't trust anymore. It hurts too much to trust."
We walked in silence for a bit, Henri and I. And then he said, "I would like to give you something. I would like to give you a gift. If you come back here in an hour, I will give you a gift." To my sorrow, the group was leaving soon. I explained that I would gladly accept his gift except that I could not return in an hour. He shook his head slowly, sad that he could not offer a small token to acknowledge our presence. I placed my hand in his and said, “But you did give me a gift.” He looked puzzled at my comment. “You gave me the gift of your life, you gave me a gift of your story.” His arms closed around me, pulling our bodies close. I felt his thin frame press against me, his life flowing into mine in the miracle of touch. And then, we turned a walked swiftly down the street, walked hand in hand with three children who were just leaving the school. He never looked back.
Thank you for your gift my brother, thank you. I promise I will always handle it gently.
Later, our small group walked through the cemetery above the town. Floating above the cemetery on the hillside was a church, a place built so that the thousands who had friends and family members buried in this place could have a place to mourn. The shaking had spared little and the church that had served the community for so long had been destroyed. Each time the sun would glimmer through the sullen skies, the metal sides would echo it's light -- a light on a hill, here among all the death. Whole families were buried together in that place -- whole families who shared the date and place of ending, a community connected forever by more than blood, a community connected by death. We stood there reaching across the years of pain, reaching into the past in the attempt to once again hear the laughter, to once again listen to the voices and songs and conversations. Yet, the only sound was the mournful groaning of the wind as it blew around the black granite tomb stones. It was the sound of sadness, the cry of a mother who would never find her child. Perhaps, in the end, it was the cry of Christ, the lament of the one who loves the most, the one who died the hardest.
An hour later, our surroundings had changed. There in the newest restaurant in town, under the chandelier throwing gentle light to all corners of the newly painted room, we sat with the principal of the school. A feast of magnanimous proportion was spread out before us. And there was life, life in the presence of memories that would never diminish, life only a stones throw from those fields of death. One of our party, a man who feels more than most, made a solemn toast, a toast to disputed land where mines would daily tear human bodies to pieces, a toast to peace and freedom and hope. The principal, nodded in the man's direction. He slowly raised his cup and in a somber tone said, "We have a saying in our country. It is 'give me your pain and together, we will lighten your load.'”
Give me your pain, give me your pain and I will carry it, here on the shoulders that bear the deaths of scores of young children. Give me your pain and I will bear it with the scars of a land torn apart by war and by the rupture of the earth itself. Give me your pain ... an offer only made by those who know what it is to bear unbearable pain.
“I am the gate,” the voice says, “I am the gate who opens to give pasture, I am the gate who offers abundant life that connects you one to another, together there where flesh touches flesh, there where it might appear that life is most tenuous, there where tears drip into the dust where you walk … and where I walk with you.” Abundant life, here, now, not in spite of the pain, but sometimes, maybe even in most times, because of it.
Shalom my friends, Nail-Bender in NC
Date: 17 Apr 2002
Time: 09:49:04
¡Creemos para el uno que no puede creer porque saben, ellos forman parte del arco iris, también!
Shalom,
Bender de clavo en NC
Date: 17 Apr 2002
Time: 09:54:14
Sigh .... correction to the above ...
And then, he turned and walked swiftly down the street, walked hand in hand with three children who were just leaving the school. He never looked back.
sigh ....
shalom,
nail-bender in nc
Date: 17 Apr 2002
Time: 09:59:32
Oooops. I think what I meant was ...
Creemos para el uno que no puede creer porque sabemos, ellos forman la parte del arco iris, también!
Shalom,
Bender de clavo en NC
Date: 17 Apr 2002
Time: 10:01:17
Oooops. I think what I meant was ...
Creemos para el uno que no puede creer porque sabemos, ellos forman la parte del arco iris, también!
Shalom,
Bender de clavo en NC
Date: 17 Apr 2002
Time: 17:41:43
Eric in KS,
Are you still on schedule for the 24th?
Michelle
Date: 17 Apr 2002
Time: 19:33:01
Michelle asked, "Eric in KS, Are you still on schedule for the 24th?"
As far as I know. Some more testing was done today (4/17) with results due back tomorrow. That will be the last step before the "harvesting."
Thanks for asking. I'll keep y'all informed.
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 18 Apr 2002
Time: 07:47:44
PH -- I lift you and yours up in my prayers. For strength and peace, for healing and wholeness.
How do we translate abundant living into today's times? How do we compare with what diminishes us?
This seems so immense, i can't seem to get a handle on it.
Blessings, rachel
Date: 18 Apr 2002
Time: 10:32:49
wd in wnc - THANK YOU!!! That's perfect! I'm going to wait until after our District preparation for the service at Conference.
I've got a handle on it now, anyhow. It might not make me the most popular preacher, but I'm going to state my view on it. Before I do, however, I must make sure I don't become one who condescends or blames. I pray for the strength to remain non-anxious and differentiated as I do it.
PH in OH - God bless you. You have my prayers, too.
Sally in GA (but brought up in OH)
Date: 18 Apr 2002
Time: 11:11:19
Curious and looking for thoughts...
Does this passage have anything to say to "Interfaith" groups? I think most Christians confuse the term Interfaith with Intrafaith. If we affirm faith systems outside of Christianity, are we "thieves and robbers" or at least spreading a false sense of salvation to those who are not entering by the Gate? If live and act as if all religions have some legitmacy are we doing it to the peril of others? Jesus is making some pretty exclusive, "cut and dried claims here that many progressive thinkers seem to ignore... ELCA pastor in Iowa
Date: 18 Apr 2002
Time: 12:34:32
ELCA pastor in Iowa asked, "If [we] live and act as if all religions have some legitmacy are we doing it to the peril of others?"
I don't think so ... take a look at Paul in the Areopagus in Acts 17 (which will be one of our lessons in two weeks):
22-23: "Then Paul stood in front of the Areopagus and said, "Athenians, I see how extremely religious you are in every way. For as I went through the city and looked carefully at the objects of your worship, I found among them an altar with the inscription, 'To an unknown god.' What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you."
Paul affirms what is good in the religiosity of the Athenians and then offers them (as he would say to the Corinthians) "a still more excellent way."
I don't think this imperils anyone, but honors all and spreads the Gospel.
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 18 Apr 2002
Time: 13:26:40
A few thoughts as I get underway rather lately this week.
I think the difficulty of seeing Jesus as both gate and gatekeeper can be resolved by thinking of a gate that opens. To get into the fold the sheep have to go by ('By' is an important word here especially if we connect the passage to John 14:16) the shepherd who lets the sheep in one at a time inspecting each sheep for injuries, sickness, pests etc. as it goes by. Once all the sheep are in the gate 'closes' when the shepherd takes up his position in the entrance.
About sheep being dumb as posts. Most definitely. What they have in their favour, however, is that they recognize their shepherd's voice. What does that say about humans who don't?
The problem of seeing those who have been given pastoral oversight as shepherds I think can be resolved by seeing it as a spiritual gift as in Ephesians 4:11-13. It is Christ who gives gifts to the church such that some would be pastors. So in a sense is not Christ being the Good Shepherd through his pastors especially if we add in the Pauline notion about being crucified with Christ such that it is no longer we who live but Christ who lives in us? It certainly makes the discernment process all that much more crucial doesn't it.
RG in Ontario
Date: 18 Apr 2002
Time: 16:31:13
PH in OH, Know that you are being lifted up in prayer. lp in CO
Date: 18 Apr 2002
Time: 22:13:40
PH in OH, you and your wife are in my thoughts and prayers.
txrev
Date: 19 Apr 2002
Time: 04:57:49
There is no mention of sheepdogs in this passage? When was the shepherd replaced with a dog?? Possibly when Jesus ascended to heaven, He left the world to the disciples (sheepdogs) to go forth and make disciples, to feed the sheep. Thoughts, Harrell in Texas
Date: 19 Apr 2002
Time: 05:30:04
Harrell asked, "When was the shepherd replaced with a dog??"
The sheherd isn't replaced by the sheepdog, Harrell. The shepherd is *assisted* by the sheepdog. Without the shepherd, the sheepdog will be as lost as the sheep!
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 19 Apr 2002
Time: 07:56:28
The Acts reading speaks of the marks of the early Christian community, one of them being prayer. I think I want to talk about prayer. How do the sheep hear the voice the Shepherd?
Tom in TO
Date: 19 Apr 2002
Time: 09:21:12
I realize that there are many ways to interpret what Jesus was saying here but this is just a thought. I believe that the shepherd is, of course, Jesus and that the door that he refers to is the Messianic mission which he fulfills. That mission involves the Prophesies, sacrifice and victory. the keeper of the Gate or door is the Father who has prepared the way for his Son. the strangers, theives and robbers are any who claim to be the way other than Christ. In vs. 7 Jesus refers tohimself as the door. This simply meands that the mission and Messiah are the same. The most important thing is that no matter how Jesus refers to himself, he is still the only one who fulfills our needs and gives us abundance even in the deserts of life.
DonaldD in NC
Date: 19 Apr 2002
Time: 09:36:11
RG in Ontario:
Although there is plenty of biblical precedent for correlating pastors with shepherds, I don't believe this text is doing that. I think it's pointing more towards an eternal safe grazing, beginning on this earth, but continuing in eternity. This text seems to be more about Christ as the gateway to salvation/green pastures than about a human being's role as ordained pastor. Christ is the only way to enter his gates with Thanksgiving.
Sally in GA
Date: 19 Apr 2002
Time: 09:49:47
OK - maybe I'll admit to my own confusion. I've been tending to conflate "shepherd" and "gatekeeper." I'm beginning to disagree with the commentary I read that insisted that this is only about Christ the good shepherd. I see that, subtly, ordained men and women are included.
Well, RG in Ontario & everyone else - thanks for letting me think it through out loud!!! hahah
I'm still focusing on the ol' Christ the good shepherd this week. Couldn't we all use some comfort? I'll incorporate Ps 23 and track the progression of valley to pasture.
Good (albeit corny) illustration for anyone like me who stays illustration-challenged. A UM pastor whom I respect (but who I don't know would appreciate having his name broadcast on the internet) preached the 23rd Psalm once. He talked about how we "cross our fingers" and how it came from some superstitious days, when the cross was seen almost as a talisman (my word, not his) against evil. People didn't always have a little cross on them, so they'd cross their fingers. Now, it is used as a safeguard against lying ("I had my fingers crossed, so it doesn't count") as if to make things OK or as a gesture of hope (I'm keeping my fingers crossed"). Then, he reflected on "though" and "through" - one word separates them - "r" - represented in American sign language by crossed fingers. Not to draw too close a parallel, but it does illustrate the point.
Sally in GA
Date: 19 Apr 2002
Time: 10:49:08
I realize that there are many ways to interpret what Jesus was saying here but this is just a thought. I believe that the shepherd is, of course, Jesus and that the door that he refers to is the Messianic mission which he fulfills. That mission involves the Prophesies, sacrifice and victory. the keeper of the Gate or door is the Father who has prepared the way for his Son. the strangers, theives and robbers are any who claim to be the way other than Christ. In vs. 7 Jesus refers tohimself as the door. This simply meands that the mission and Messiah are the same. The most important thing is that no matter how Jesus refers to himself, he is still the only one who fulfills our needs and gives us abundance even in the deserts of life.
DonaldD in NC
Date: 19 Apr 2002
Time: 11:52:45
The hymn posted by Petereo works well to the tune of "Amazing Grace." The meter 'CM' has a large listing of tunes in most hymnals. -- to RG in Ontario, the Rev. Harry Heintz has a sermon icorporating your idea of a "gate that moves" in a sermon called, "A Swingin' Savior." Grace & peace, Revmar in KS.
Date: 19 Apr 2002
Time: 11:53:12
The hymn posted by Petereo works well to the tune of "Amazing Grace." The meter 'CM' has a large listing of tunes in most hymnals. -- to RG in Ontario, the Rev. Harry Heintz has a sermon icorporating your idea of a "gate that moves" in a sermon called, "A Swingin' Savior." Grace & peace, Revmar in KS.
Date: 19 Apr 2002
Time: 14:25:58
Sally in GA and all of the rest,
I have been thoroughly enjoying the discussion this week regarding shepherds, sheepdogs, sheepdonkeys, sheepllamas, etc. I just wanted to expand one idea a little. The view of pastor as one of the above is right on target but I would like to suggest that the concept of pastor is a very broad one. Indeed, there are a lot of "pastoral" people who are doing a lot of very good sheeptending who are not pastors in the ordained clergy sense of the word or even in the licensed, or local, clergy sense of the word. In a sense, isn't every Christian called to be a "sheeptender" to the world; to help shepherd the strays beyond our flocks, bringing them to the one who is both the Gate and the Master Shepherd?
Just pondering, Mike in SD, TN
Date: 19 Apr 2002
Time: 17:48:57
There are several Shepherd/sheep parables. It's hard to keep them seperate and most of us don't even try. It seems to me in this particular one Jesus is casting himself as the gatekeeper(who is also the gate, when laying down) and the Shepherd is God. This seems to resonate with "I am the way.." Jesus doesn't ever claim to be the destination. If we as pastors have a role in bringing in the sheep I think we fill that gap/gate during Jesus' current physical absence.
Added to all the sheep metaphors already in the book, it seems every exegete turns commentator when approaching these texts and feels bound to add another meaning to the mix. Maybe it was that exelent little book, "A Shepherd Looks At the 23rd Psalm" by the author whose name escapes me just now. And now we must add llamas("the tall ugly sheep with all the attitude", according to the coyotes) and donkeys and the whole deal is going to the dogs! I give up!
I think I'm going to focus on the idea that the sheep will follow the voice of the one they come to trust. It seems to me in the context this is set in, Jesus is showing the inability of the scribes/pharisees/preists, the "Jews" to John, to recognise Jesus' message. I don't know that they were the theives (maybe they were the "donkeys" that were leading the sheep) but more and more they seemed to be following the voice of Rome in deciding how to get along in the world.
It seems to me one of the jobs of the gate-keepers in the present is to help the sheep come to know the voice of the one they should follow. I will focus on some of the issues in which the church seems to be following worldly models and claim my responsibility to say "Find God's word on that." I was recently in a meeting where the upcoming vote on a state lottery was being discussed. Several good arguments against it were raised, both theological and fiscal. A wise fellow clergyperson said it would be more productive to attack it on financial rather than moral grounds. I'm paraphrasing, but the gist of the argument was "Our people don't care about the poor. We better tell them it is bad for the state revenues." This is probably correct, but it chaps me that a Worldly reason would carry more weight than a Kingdom reason. I'm going to share this story and both reasons, and ask the folks to ask themselves which reason holds more sway. It is my job to point out the direction God is going, so the sheep will know how to follow. Now that I read this, it sounds a little patronizing. It isn't the final draft, just a rough direction. And a too long post. I apologize. tom in TN(USA)
Date: 19 Apr 2002
Time: 20:16:08
This is late and probably unhelpful, but for me, the whole good shepherd image is about seeing the role of Jesus, as the person who illustrates and illuminates meaning in our life. His revelation of God, is the means by which we come to understand our own purpose.
His life and teaching is the way, the door, the gate, the means by which we come into a greater relationship with God. His spiritual maturity highlights the superficiality of so many other ways of thinking about things. Jesus, went to the very heart of the human condition. And not only that, but that he also cares for us in the process. His promise to be with us in Spirit, ensures that we have a constant companion in this. As we struggle with who we are and what our purpose on earth is, it is Jesus working through the Holy Spirit in us and in others, who ensures our care and who enables us to move on from our injuries and obstacles to a better and more improved life. Forgiveness, is the state which enables us to move on from our guilt.
The problem we have with this passage is when we read it as only a single event in our life. It is much more powerful if we see it as a continuum that never ends. This is an ongoing process occurring over many years. When we enter into the Christian life, we are enabled to move freely between the spiritual and the physical and find a cohesion with both. In contrast to Christ, thieves and bandits are those within our world who would suggest that we can gain such peace by other means than the sacrificial way of love. Their motivation is far more likely to be self-importance and financial gain. I have to question, so called Christian preachers, evangelists, songwriters and artists as such, who charge exorbitant fees for their message. In my own parish, I offer such insights for free. I charge nothing for baptism, sermons, counselling, advice, and a whole range of my original material is copyright free. I have to wonder how much we would be paying for copyright fees if John had placed a copyright on his gospel. And I think John was right in identifying us as sheep. I am regularly intrigued by the number of scams and cons that people are drawn into, even under the guise of Christian content, in a world where we have such high levels of education and sophistication.
For John, writing to a church in persecution and under threat, Christ's life, the way of the cross, is the only gateway into true relationship with God. Other methods and spiritual paths are a falsehood. This passage was to encourage a confused church, facing a number of very powerful and influential options, who were questioning hether, seeing as how the Messiah had not returned, were they on the right path. (Not unlike our Western world today)
The way of the cross, the way of self-sacrifice, the way of Jesus the Christ, is still the only proven method of achieving lasting satisfaction.
There are so many subtleties to this passage, which John as brilliantly incorporated. For example; "Whoever enters by me will be saved, and will come in and go out and find pasture." I have found that as you incorporate the way of Christ into your life, as you enter this way of living, you will find yourself by necessity, caring for others. By this you find true purpose and the healing power of relationship. True pasture, true bread, living water. That is the Christian way.
As always in John's gospel, it is inherently important that you read carefully what is metaphor and what is literal. IT CHANGES THE EMPHASISE DRAMATICALLY.
Sorry to be so long winded and to burden you all with my wrestling.I just had to get that off my chest.
Regards for a powerful message this Sunday,
KGB in Aussie.
Date: 19 Apr 2002
Time: 20:33:39
PH in OH: God bless and keep you and yours. You are in my prayers this evening.
StudentPastor in KS
Date: 20 Apr 2002
Time: 09:06:39
As I read the postings, little has been mentioned of leading. Businesses constantly encourage their workers to learn leadership. The military relies on the capabilities of leaders for mission success. The debate rages on whether leaders are made or born. For a shepherd to lead, what does it take? How did Christ, the Good Shepherd, lead? It seems that He proclaimed, He healed, He loved and people followed. Was it charisma? Powers of pursuasion? Motivational techniques? I tend to believe that Christ's sincere love was so evident and people's hunger so deep that the sheep flocked readily. How sincere is our love? To Peter and to us, He urges, "Feed my sheep!" But first, Jesus asks about loving Him.
Army Chaplain E, Middle East
Date: 20 Apr 2002
Time: 09:30:09
Back to April 9th, the brave preacher before the King was Bp. Hugh Latimer:
http://www.whatsaiththescripture.com/Fellowship/Edit_Courage.of.Latimer.html
Entering the pulpit with Henry VIII in the congregation, Latimer announced the text. Then he paused and said:
"Hugh Latimer, dost thou know before whom thou art this day to speak? To the high and mighty monarch, the King's most excellent majesty, who can take away thy life if thou offendest; therefore take heed that thou speakest not a word that may displease! And then consider well, Hugh, dost thou not know from whence comest thou; upon whose message thou art sent? Even by the great and mighty God! Who is all present! and Who beholdeth all thy ways! and Who is able to cast thy soul into hell! Therefore take care that thou deliverest thy message faithfully."
Date: 20 Apr 2002
Time: 10:13:29
Read the concerns about clergy as 'shepherd' and people as sheep. Hmm: not quite se self-esteem movemnet, is it.
For what it's worth-- sheep/shepherd IS biblical, and needs the whole Scripture in context. More importantly, this is how Jesus described and referred to himself, and taught us to understand his life, his work, his saving care.
'Shepherd' is an ancient biblical and pagan image, and refers to power, judgment, responsibility, stewardship, providence, divine & human government, sacrifice, tender mercy, leadership, Kingly care, messianic hope, and so on-- not just syrupy Psalm 23 niceness, which has been almost done to death in some ways.
Shepherd: Genesis 48:15; 1 Kings 22:17; Psalm 23:1; Psalm 28:9; Psalm 80:1; Jeremiah 50; Isaiah 40:11; Ezekiel 34; Micah 5:4; Zechariah 13:6; Matthew 9:36, 25:32; John 10 & 21; Acts 20; 1 Peter 5; Rev. 7:17.
"Stupid as a post" is a harsh thing for one sheep to unsheepishly say to another; but from The Shepherd's-eye view (revealed in the Bible) it is exactly and really the case: we are as a race loveable, stunned, panicky, prone to wandering off, heedless of the troubles we may cause, taking the shepherd for granted, forgetful, self-injuring.
Yet rejoice, for the Good Shepherd lays down his life for the sheep, though all we like sheep had gone astray; and by his death and resurrection, his shepherding is greater than sin and death and hell, and he brings us into green pastures and still waters:
“For the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd, and he will guide them to springs of living water; and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.” (Rev. 7:17)
Links:
http://www.prayerbook.ca/crouse/sermons/easter_2.htm
http://www.prayerbook.ca/crouse/sermons/occ_consecration.htm
SAT in NS
Date: 20 Apr 2002
Time: 10:29:10
Mike in SD, TN
Are you in the town called Soddy Daisy? Anyways, if you get this: I have no dispute over the priesthood of all believers. Where the issue is cloudy for me this week is that this text doesn't fit neatly into an earth-bound allegory, and yet Jesus is clearly speaking allegorically. Remember that this is the Easter season, and the focus is on the resurrection power, so we're remiss if we don't acknowledge the eternality of green pastures (I'm connecting with Ps 23).
I contend that the power of the resurrection breaks our linear thinking and the gate keeper, for example, can be viewed as BOTH father and Son, and even a human being. keeping a gate, or herding sheep, are functions and whoever it is actually performing the functions, the function itself comes from God. I'm thinking, in particular, of those times when non-believers actually gave a Christian witness to me!
Keeping the main thing the main thing ... regardless of who performs which function, we enter the gate through belief in Jesus.
I'm sticking with the message of comfort. We've had a lot of grief around here lately.
still with only an outline for tomorrow and biting my fingernails ...
Sally in GA
Date: 20 Apr 2002
Time: 10:43:38
I just can't resist:
To be Tillichian - the GROUND of Shepherding/Gatekeeping/Grazing!!!!!!
Some classmates of mine in seminary who were also roommates had a sign over their front door: "Tillichian Crisis Center. Please wipe the ground of being off your feet."
Sally in GA
Date: 20 Apr 2002
Time: 10:47:22
Read the concerns about clergy as 'shepherd' and people as sheep. Hmm: not quite se self-esteem movemnet, is it.
For what it's worth-- sheep/shepherd IS biblical, and needs the whole Scripture in context. More importantly, this is how Jesus described and referred to himself, and taught us to understand his life, his work, his saving care.
'Shepherd' is an ancient biblical and pagan image, and refers to power, judgment, responsibility, stewardship, providence, divine & human government, sacrifice, tender mercy, leadership, Kingly care, messianic hope, and so on-- not just syrupy Psalm 23 niceness, which has been almost done to death in some ways.
Shepherd: Genesis 48:15; 1 Kings 22:17; Psalm 23:1; Psalm 28:9; Psalm 80:1; Jeremiah 50; Isaiah 40:11; Ezekiel 34; Micah 5:4; Zechariah 13:6; Matthew 9:36, 25:32; John 10 & 21; Acts 20; 1 Peter 5; Rev. 7:17.
"Stupid as a post" is a harsh thing for one sheep to unsheepishly say to another; but from The Shepherd's-eye view (revealed in the Bible) it is exactly and really the case: we are as a race loveable, stunned, panicky, prone to wandering off, heedless of the troubles we may cause, taking the shepherd for granted, forgetful, self-injuring.
Yet rejoice, for the Good Shepherd lays down his life for the sheep, though all we like sheep had gone astray; and by his death and resurrection, his shepherding is greater than sin and death and hell, and he brings us into green pastures and still waters:
“For the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd, and he will guide them to springs of living water; and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.” (Rev. 7:17)
Links:
http://www.prayerbook.ca/crouse/sermons/easter_2.htm
http://www.prayerbook.ca/crouse/sermons/occ_consecration.htm
SAT in NS
Date: 20 Apr 2002
Time: 11:56:52
Revmar in KS:
I would like to see the sermon you mentioned by the Rev. Harry Heintz, 'A Swinging Savior'. Is it available online?
RG in Ontario
Date: 20 Apr 2002
Time: 17:19:45
did anyone get a series of children's quips lately that had to do with the child who was running in and out of the gate of heaven and St. Peter said to make up his mind, "in or out"? That is the gist of it anyway, if you have it could you post it? Thanks! KT in DE
Date: 20 Apr 2002
Time: 18:30:47
I wonder if an important part of this is verse 10. Perhaps the identifying characteristics of the thief is that he/she comes to steal, kill, destroy. No one before Jesus fully and perfectly turned away from that mode. Jesus came to do only one thing, to give abundant life, and didn't worry about being stolen from, killed or destroyed.
Entering the gate by Jesus means choosing the same path he took, and refusing the stealing, killing and destroying shortcuts we are so tempted to take to make things right.
SheepDog from MI
Date: 20 Apr 2002
Time: 21:35:22
Sally in GA,
I live in (or rather just out of) Soddy Daisy, TN but serve just outside of Lookout Mountain, GA.
I wasn'r hitting on you in particular with the "priesthood of all believers" stick but I've seen a lot of pastors (including locals like myself) who draw a line between the "called" and the "uncalled." Likewise, I have known a lot of "pew warmers" who were totally willing to stay sheep when they had the gifts and talents to be more.
In regard to the season of Easter and the 23rd Psalm, Easter is the piece that makes the Psalm work. We must indeed consider the eternality of the green pastures but we must also remember the nature of the valley where the Shepherd gives comfort as well as care, the valley of the SHADOW of death. Because of Easter, the presence of the Shepherd reminds us that death has no power to hold us anymore than any other shadow. By faith, we pass through the shadow to a better place, the Shepherd's home fields by the gate that He opened with His own blood.
My prayers are with all of you tomorrow. Sometimes it's hard enough just to speak the Word of the Lord to the people you are charged with feeding without the added pressure of special liturgy or special "guests."
Mike in SD, TN
Date: 21 Apr 2002
Time: 10:43:28
To RG in Ontario -- I know this is late, but the sermon, "A Swingin' Savior" by Harry Heintz can be found on www.brunswickchurch.org/sermons. Sorry, I didn't check in on Saturday. Revmar in KS
Date: 30 Jun 2002
Time: 12:11:46
Few people, when asked why the Lord came, answer the question with John 10:10, but what an answe it provides! "Iam come that they might have life and have it more abundantly." God is love and He sent His Son so we could have life in all of its fullness forever. We only need to obey and confess that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God, our Lord, whom God has raised from the dead.(Romans 10:9-10).
If we choose to learn His word and to obey His truth, no good thing will he withhold from us. II peter 1:2-3
Date: 30 Jun 2002
Time: 12:14:16
Few people, when asked why the Lord came, answer the question with John 10:10, but what an answe it provides! "Iam come that they might have life and have it more abundantly." God is love and He sent His Son so we could have life in all of its fullness forever. We only need to obey and confess that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God, our Lord, whom God has raised from the dead.(Romans 10:9-10).
If we choose to learn His word and to obey His truth, no good thing will he withhold from us. II Peter 1:2-3
Date: 09 Jul 2002
Time: 05:46:02
Pastor as sheepdog?What evidence--archaeological, textual, hieroglypics, rock drawings, exists to show that dogs were ever used to herd sheep during Christ's time, before or after? My modern-day experience with Bedu in Middle East indicates that dogs are NEVER used to herd sheep. Instead, I have seen the herds respond to silent signals from the shepherd who leads from the front. At the MOST, they guard the flock. SECregier, POB 1100 Montague PEI C0A IR0
Date: 4/24/2003
Time: 10:35:58 AM
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Date: 4/24/2003
Time: 10:35:59 AM
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Date: 4/24/2003
Time: 10:36:00 AM
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Date: 4/24/2003
Time: 10:36:46 AM
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