Date: 20 Feb 2002
Time: 13:23:30
Ok what is going on between Martha and Jesus, they speak to each other as do only those on the most familiar of basis. Does this remind you of the recent holiwood mini series of Jesus with Jeromy Sistow? How do people feel about it and its implying that Jesus and Mary felt a romantic atraction? Is this a total taboo or does it make Jesus seem very real and human to people?
Date: 20 Feb 2002
Time: 13:27:03
Isn't Martha's statement outstanding? It is like she has anticipated Jesus.
Date: 22 Feb 2002
Time: 09:45:43
Lazarus come out! is the cenral piece of this whole story and it only makes sense in light of Jesus power to give life. What is the best way to retell the story so those who have heard it over and over will be struck by the power of it "again as if for the first time"? I plan to read the passage in parts and to have some real energy in the reading itself! Any good ideas on the preaching part of it? old priest in Iowa
Date: 27 Feb 2002
Time: 12:28:18
This story does not simply say there is life after death. It says a soul can re enter a body even one that has been dead and decaying.
Date: 27 Feb 2002
Time: 12:29:42
This story does not simply say there is life after death. It says a soul can re enter a body even one that has been dead and decaying.
Date: 02 Mar 2002
Time: 20:08:56
11:42 I knew that you always hear me, but I have said this for the sake of the crowd standing here, so that they may believe that you sent me Is not this the same thing that happen to the blind man. Was not he blind so that the works of our Lord might made plain to those who will believe, that Jesus is sent by the farther. Isn't that why he tarried instead of comming soomer. And doesn't it seem that he always tarry so we might know that it is the work of the Lord? So many times I have waited till the last minute and then the Lord gives me the answer, or meets the need.
Pastor Roger in WV.
Date: 02 Mar 2002
Time: 20:10:43
11:42 I knew that you always hear me, but I have said this for the sake of the crowd standing here, so that they may believe that you sent me Is not this the same thing that happen to the blind man. Was not he blind so that the works of our Lord might made plain to those who will believe, that Jesus is sent by the farther. Isn't that why he tarried instead of comming soomer. And doesn't it seem that he always tarry so we might know that it is the work of the Lord? So many times I have waited till the last minute and then the Lord gives me the answer, or meets the need.
Pastor Roger in WV.
Date: 04 Mar 2002
Time: 06:47:13
Does this say that sometimes we are so dead to God that our life stinks, but no matter how stinky we are Jesus can and will give us new life? just a random thought Nancy-Wi
Date: 05 Mar 2002
Time: 09:18:01
My Lay Speaker and I are trying something new here...Tag Team Preaching...I take the Gospel and psalm and he has the OT LEsson and Epistle Lesson... We decided this without looking at scripture-dates ahead of time... Should be interesting to see how God will tie two "preachers" together... I know HE WILL though...I will put on our Church Sign next Week... THE MAIN EVENT- TAG TEAM PREACHING- ECW: EXTREME CHRISTIAN WARRIORS- LET's GET Ready to RUMBLE!!!!!! ( I KNOW, GOD CALLED A NUT IN HIS PULPIT!LOL) And as for the Martha Mary 'love" relation question... Well,I dont even question it, Jesus knew he was born to die for us all, WHY would Jesus even go there or even marry like rabbis did- some say Mary Magdeline was His wife???? Jesus Knew in that time and society a WIDOW and CHILDREN had it HARD... OUR LORD IS NOT SELFISH- HE WOULD NOT HAVE LEFT A WIFE AND FAMILY TO SUFFER THE things widows did! ANd besides, that if Jesus would have had a 'girlfriend" 'wife' It would have been to teach MEN , Like PAUL states in some of his letters, how for men to treat their wives AS CHRIST TREATS THE CHURCH!!!!!! BUT REMEMBER CHRIST COUND NOT HAVE HAD A WIFE HERE CAUSE WE, THE CHURCH ARE HIS BRIDE!!!!!ALL OF US!!! OOO A FIRST YEAR SEMINARY STUDENT---gets theological!
Date: 05 Mar 2002
Time: 09:21:09
ooo forgot my name to that post LADYPREACHER IN WEST OHIO!!!
Date: 05 Mar 2002
Time: 12:15:58
Hi, I was always told that speaking in CAPITOL letters is yelling on line. Maybe some do not know it. Some other things are LOL or lol is laughing out loud. :-) this is a smiley face. Several versions of it. FYI is for your information. There is a host of these line language. I humbly request that you emphasis meanings using capitols as little as possible. Thanks. Nancy-WI
Date: 06 Mar 2002
Time: 09:35:32
I haven't taken part in one of these discussions before, so hope this makes some sense. What puzzles me about the Lazarus story is whether we are meant to take it literally at all. Its a story of resuscitation, not resurrection. Its not like the Resurrection of Jesus, where he was clearly transformed. Are we then to preach resuscitation?
Given that the story doesn't appear in the synoptic gospels, is it more likely that what it really is is a meditation on "I am the resurrection and the life", so that we ought to read it figuratively as 'Jesus has won the victory over the power of death'?
PB - England
Date: 06 Mar 2002
Time: 18:00:29
I don't have the information in front of me, but I believe the fact that Lazarus was dead for 4 days is significant in Hebrew culture...after four days the spirit was officially out of the body??? Does this sound familiar to anyone?
Missouri Dave
Date: 09 Mar 2002
Time: 05:48:42
Verse 44 is - and has been - speaking to me for some time; i.e. the note that once Lazarus was out of the tomb, Jesus called on the mourners and those present to "unbind him." I want my preaching to be an emphasis on the resurrection, and not too heavy on "works," but maybe there's something here that calls us to cooperate with the activity of God, to fully effect the miracles God gives us.
Janice in Ks
Date: 10 Mar 2002
Time: 12:58:19
To PB in England - I wonder which scriptures we should take figuratively and which scriptures we can trust as valid and true? I'll take them all as true and take my chances... Let the Jesus Seminar folks waste their time on voting on which stories happened. I'll let the stories increase my faith in a God of miracles.
I think one point to remember is that God answers prayers in ways we might not choose. Jesus could have come earlier to heal Lazarus. I think that is what Martha wanted in vs. 21. But Jesus had something even greater in mind. He was stronger than even death itself. Think of the faith Mary and Martha must have had after seeing Lazarus rise from the dead.
Often we pray for things and we have our own outcome in mind. But God is bigger than our minds can comprehend. He often answers prayer in bigger and better ways. Mary and Martha wanted a healing - Jesus gave them an even bigger miracle - he raised someone from the dead.
Pastor John in CT
Date: 10 Mar 2002
Time: 14:57:52
I believe this is a resurrection story! It clearly shows the life giving power of Jesus. The significance is that Jesus waited 3 days before traveling. You have to be dead for 3 days to really be dead. Thus Jesus rose on the 3rd day. Often it is 3 days before we bury someone, even today. Lazarus' body had already begun to decompose. Jesus did not give Lazarus mouth to mouth, he gave his dead body life. PH in OH
Date: 10 Mar 2002
Time: 16:52:51
Lazarus is dying and Jesus waits 2 days before going to see him. Why? to reveal God's power over death. To perform a sign so that people - in this case people who "knew" Jesus - would Believe. They (and we) however, are dense. (Actually, in CT we congregationalists are pretty dense. In the South the Baptists are more dense than Congregationalists. In the Midwest maybe Methodists are densest. I guess the Catholics are pretty dense everywhere....just kidding... dense & dense...). Anyway, when Jesus "weeps", I believe the Greek word is more like a moan of frustration, or a snort as a horse would make - so my seminary prof said years ago. It is not the word for crying or tears as used elsewhere. Besides, Jesus waited 2 days - its no surprise to him that Lazarus died. Jesus is frustrated with the unbelief of the disciples, the women, the bystanders. This is a very mysterious event, beyond rational explanation. It does not say that Lazarus walked out - he came out fully wrapped - maybe he "floated" out, then he was unbound. We can't say for sure. The idea is that this event, once again, like Nicodemus, the woman at the well, and the man born blind, reveals who Jesus is and that when you see that, you "see" God. Anyway, thes are early observations. Jim in CT.
Date: 10 Mar 2002
Time: 17:33:39
The Greek for "wept" (or "began to weep") is "edakrusen" from the verb "dakruo" which means "to shed tears" -- it is derived from "dakru", a neuter noun meaning "tear"....
I don't think the "moan in frustration" or "snort like a horse" interpretation is correct....
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 10 Mar 2002
Time: 18:15:37
Hi! DPS friends.... Well....it's that favorite time of the week, ISN'T IT?!!! By that I mean, that time of week when we begin to plan the menu for Sunday. On to Lazarus. Lazarus is kind of like some Churches I've known....The Lord loves them dearly, grieves over their death...but can ALSO...CALL THEM BACK TO LIFE!!! What is there within the Church that is dead, or within us that needs to be called back to life" Hope? Our first love...Jesus Christ? Preacher in Ks.
Date: 10 Mar 2002
Time: 18:16:15
Hi! DPS friends.... Well....it's that favorite time of the week, ISN'T IT?!!! By that I mean, that time of week when we begin to plan the menu for Sunday. On to Lazarus. Lazarus is kind of like some Churches I've known....The Lord loves them dearly, grieves over their death...but can ALSO...CALL THEM BACK TO LIFE!!! What is there within the Church that is dead, or within us that needs to be called back to life" Hope? Our first love...Jesus Christ? Preacher in Ks.
Date: 11 Mar 2002
Time: 02:55:04
If Jesus can give life to someone that is good and dead (four days dead), if God can raise up a valley of dry bones, just think what God can do when we turn to Him in prayer.
Jesus was glad Lazarus died with out Him there (vs.15). Jesus was glad because He had in mind a greater miracle than healing. Jesus had in mind a miracle that would give testimony to the miracle of the resurrection. Jesus didn’t enjoy seeing His friend die. The scripture says when they invited Jesus to see where they had laid Lazarus, He began to weep (John 11:35). But Jesus realized something greater than a healing was to happen. Mary and Martha and many others had in mind how Jesus should answer their prayers but Jesus had even greater plans in mind.
Isn't that how our prayer life often is? We pray, thinking God can answer in this way or that way. But God gives us an answer we never even thought about. They prayed for healing - Jesus gave them a sign that pointed beyond His humanity to His divinity and in the end, raised a dead man to life.
Pastor John in CT
Date: 11 Mar 2002
Time: 05:35:45
Preacher in KS: COOL! Tongue in cheek! I was always taught to pick my battles, and I don't think capitalization should be one of them!! Especially picking on a 1st year seminary student!! I used what was said in last weeks discussion, yesterday. That when we call unchurched people sinners, we push them away. Jesus call us and we are to help others, never push them away, especially with petty stuff.
I have really gotten into the lectionary this Lenten season. I have seen a brighter, even more beautiful Jesus. The One who was tempted and and did not succumb--for us; the One who taught a learned man by night so we can be reborn; the One who waited by a well to teach a woman about true life so we may drink of the living water; the One who was there for the blind man AND the Pharisees. And, Praise God he is always there for me!
I learn so much from this sight! This week I am already on the path of Jesus bringing to life to our dirty-rotten-stinking souls!
I want to share with you, because I receive so much from you, two things. Yesterday as I read that very long passage, to keep my congregation awake :-), (not really), whenever I read the word "blind" I had them say, "NO", when I anything having to do with sight or eyes, I had them say, "YES". Please try this with someone, I think you will be surprised at the message that is given!
The second thing is I want to share a miracle!! Friday I went to the hospital to be with a 70ish lady who was having tests for pain in her leg. The pain came on suddenly Wednesday as she got out of her car to come to Bible Study. She was taken to the ER and admitted to the hospital, VICU! To make a long story short, the tests showed that there was no blood flow to her leg, the arteries were hard and brittle, no repair could be done. Her heart and lungs could not stand the length of an operation to do a bypass. The only chance she had for survival was to amputate the leg at the groin. The leg was dead. No pulse, no heat, no color. A shock for all of us!!!! Her huge family is Christian. We all ran outside and turned on our cellphones and started calling people to get prayer circles going, there was no doubt in any of us Who would be in charge! They took her into surgery about 10 pm. to remove her leg. She came out of the operating room, WITH a leg that pink, had a pulse and was warm!! The Dr. does not know what happened!! Mary woke up Saturday and said, "Praise God!! I am alive!! And I am going to live!!" Business as usual for us?? No, never again!
When we serve a God this great--don't get hung up on the petty stuff! TheCharge
Date: 11 Mar 2002
Time: 06:36:47
If Jesus had left immediately upon hearing that Lazarus was ill, Lazarus would have been dead before he got there anyway, as the trip had to have taken at least a day.
Lazarus is ill. One day for messengers to find Jesus. Two days for Jesus to remain in that place (Jesus states Lazarus has already died, could have appened the day the messengers left). One day for Jesus to travel to the home of Lazarus. Added together equals four days.
If Jesus would have left immediately, Lazarus would still have been already dead for two days by the time he arrived.
It is painful to watch someone die, I might be doing it right now... our dog. Eight years old and his liver is failing. It was easier to let go of my father last summer, as his brain disease (Picks)had taken the best of him from us long ago. It was horrible for Mary and Martha to watch Lazarus die. And Jesus couldn't be there before Lazarus died, which was horrible for him, too, I believe, even though he was about to demonstrate the power of God.
This will be a difficult gospel for me to preach this week, unless, of course, a miracle happens. I never thought an animal would become so important in our home.
Michelle
Date: 11 Mar 2002
Time: 07:00:10
"When Mary came where Jesus was and saw him, she knelt at his feet and said to him, "Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died."
I think many have a tendency to think like Mary in the face of crisis. Some assume it's the absence of Christ's presence that allows for bad things (though we know from the text that Jesus is aware of the situations and the family is on his mind) How many times have we thought "Lord, if only you were here!"
But ba timing still doesn't hamper the saving power of Christ, he is beyond the bounds of time and all things are possible though beyound comprehension!
Pr.del in Ia
ps. I find the excessive use of caps distracting too...just my humble preference.
Date: 11 Mar 2002
Time: 07:38:16
Michelle - I'm sorry to hear about your dog. I've been in that position of handling the death of a pet (we always seem to have at least 4 of them at any given time and, over the years, have had to say good-bye to many! I even preached a sermon about the death of one - a cat that I had nursed by hand with an eye-dropper when he was an abandoned 2-wk old kitten: I still miss him terribly even ten years after his passing.
Part of this passage was chosen recently by the family of a deceased parishioner for use at his requiem and I used it as the central point of my funeral homily. If anyone would like to take a look you can find it at
http://www.stfrancis-ks.org/subpages/asermons/johnson-requiem-homily.htm
Michelle wrote: "If Jesus would have left immediately, Lazarus would still have been already dead for two days by the time he arrived."
It dawned on me as I read this that Jesus didn't really even need to go to Lazarus -- wasn't it the centurion's servant that he cured at long distance in Mark 8? He simply said to the centurion, "Go, it will be done." Why couldn't he have done that here?
If I weren't dealing a very controlling and manipulative parishioner right now, I probably wouldn't be sensitive to the negative implications of this story -- but I find the picture of Jesus painted here to be quite unappealing! Here's his friend ill and dying whom he could relieve with just a word. Instead, he lets the guy die and lets his sisters mourn for 2 or 3 or 4 days before doing anything and then what he does is a great big splashy, flashy show of his own power. The only redeeming element is that one verse "Jesus wept." Perhaps he is weeping for himself, mourning his need to manipulate his friends just to make a point to "the Jews"....
Feeling a bit put out with God this morning!
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 11 Mar 2002
Time: 08:08:03
Michelle.... I am so sorry to hear about the loss of your Dad and now your dog. Animals are such a blessing to us. I believe that God gives them to us for a purpose. When I was alone...after twenty-five years of marriage....all I had left of the family was my Bassett Hound, named "Angel". She is getting old now, and I realize that someday I will have to give her up. But I try to remember how she blesses my life each day. My heart and prayers go out to you. God will give you strength for these difficult times. Preacher in Ks.
Date: 11 Mar 2002
Time: 08:11:44
I'm thinking of the other Lazarus story where Father Abraham tells the rich man. If they don't believe the prophets neither will they believe if one is raised from the dead. I believe the long wait and calling forth was more for the desciples benefit than any other. They see this and still do not get it. Time after time he tells them the son of man must die but will rise from the grave on the third day. Even after this experience they still don't get it. Then after pentecost every where they go they preach the same message Jesus and the ressurrection. That is the one thing that sets us apart from every other religion. We have a risen savior. Early ramblings.
Harold in Alabama
Date: 11 Mar 2002
Time: 10:30:06
PB in England,
You asked whether we are to preach resuscitation. I believe this text speaks both to resuscitation and resurrection. "I know that he will rise again on the last day," signifies that resurrection was not the issue for Martha, but it is an issue for Jesus. "I am the Resurrection AND the life..." both life here and life hereafter? I would say that the point is that God has power over all of life, now and after our earthly death.
Michelle
Date: 11 Mar 2002
Time: 11:24:36
This passage was too long and complicated for me, so I focus on just one verse, 11:40, "Did I not tell you that if you would believe you would see the glory of God?" My title is a reversal of the old adage, "Seeing is believing." I will emphasize that with Christ "Believing is seeing." My outline begins with the natural scepticism we develop from our negative life experiences and then looks at things we can't see but know to be true. I hope this is helpful to someone. Harry in (sunny) Orlando.
Date: 11 Mar 2002
Time: 12:27:58
PB in England, Aren't all the gospels looking backwards? Aren't they all after the fact of the resurrection? As I understand the gospels, they are the inspired writings which existed orally for a period of time with the intent of reflecting upon the life of Jesus and telling who Jesus is. Even the birth accounts are reflections of a resurrected Jesus--one with God, are they not? lp in CO
Date: 11 Mar 2002
Time: 12:33:31
Pastor John in CT, I'm not so sure that to say that something in the scriptures may or may not be factually true, you know, like detective work...makes it untrue. I completely believe in the truth of the scriptures. That does not mean that I accept or have to accept them literally. For me...not for everyone, I would rather not get caught up in those things that can take us away from the real truth being taught. I'm starting to sound like another on this site who refers to herself as "rambling." I guess I am. lp in CO
Date: 11 Mar 2002
Time: 12:40:49
Eric in KS, It is okay! Relationships are like that. God has probably been put out with us a few times, as well. I always appreciate your input to this site. Blessings! lp in CO
Date: 11 Mar 2002
Time: 12:49:50
Okay, now for something substantial from me here. I see this as a story of grace. Someone on this site, and I apologize for not remembering who it is, said that perhaps it is a story of Jesus bringing us back to life no matter how "stinky." I agree. I do not believe that we have to wait until our physical death to experience resurrection on some level. I think our death/resurrection will be the grand finale. Our entire life is a series of deaths and resurrections--mine is, anyway. If we can begin to get in touch with the Spirit of Jesus who is alive in each of us and can begin to remember and make note of the many times that "deaths" have turned to "resurrections" either in our own lives or in those of others, then we can begin to live here and now as resurrection people.
Michelle, I am so sorry about your dog. I do know that pain. We had to put a golden retriever down about five or six years ago and I still have a place in my heart for her. I look at retrievers with a whole different affection. lp in CO
Date: 11 Mar 2002
Time: 13:31:28
You can almost sense Jesus' building frustration and the "dense-ness" of his followers. He plainly says Lazarus is dead and they are to go there and Jesus will wake him (vss 11, 14). But the disciples don't understand. Jesus tries to tell Martha that he will raise Lazarus, but Martha misunderstands. Its almost as if Jesus has to use "all capitals" to get his point across - I AM the resurrection and the life - right here, right now, before you. If you believe you will see God's glory (by the way, you'll also see it at the crucifixion and resurrection - Jesus moment of glorification). You Greek scholars, is the word used for weeping in vs 33 the same as in vs 35? I don't have my Strong's concordance handy.... Perhaps our own attitudes adn feelings about death determine how we react to this story. Some of us are actively grieving loss, some of us may be afraid of death and rail that Jesus is being manupulative - playing with something painful. Some of us may think. like Martha and Amry, that Jesus can only help is he "gets here intime" . But for God - and Jesus - the fact that Lazarus has died is not really a barrier. Jesus sums up his mission - believe in me and never die - or turned around, believe in me and have true life. Also, believe in me and know/ see/ perceive GOd's glory. In 11:42 he declares that he has done this so that the witnesses would believe that this is God working thru him. Again, John is very different from the other gospels. There are few, if any simple lessons like "don't hide your light under a basket", or "turn the other cheek". Instead there's a series of close encounters with the Holy One, the Son of Man, the lamb of God, the Light of the World, the Bread of Life, the Light of the World, the Son of God, the Messiah, the true Vine, the Good Shepherd, the Word (Logos). And the message repeats and builds upon itself - belive in this One, who is of God. So when we read about death here, we may be missing John's point if we become stuck in our own view and feelings about dying, loss, friendship. As always with Christ, some will belive (as in vs 45) and some will not. At times I am able to believe strongly and at times I am not. FOrtunately, Jesus does not forsake even a weakling like me. A couple other notes on the passage - you can't put geography into it - John jumps all over with location. The passage mentions two miles - an easy walk - not a day's walk at all! But they may or may not have been that near. Also, the question remaise, if Jesus had nothing to fear feel anxious about over Lazarus' death, because he knew what was to be done, then he did not "weep" out of sadness. I think that observation by the crowd is there to show that they don't get it . THey realize Jesus is "special" - a rabbi, teacher, prophet, but they don't get that he is revealing GOD and is one with GOD. The author John, and we the readers looking back, however, DO get it - or at least we are meant to. Jim in CT
Date: 11 Mar 2002
Time: 13:34:41
First -- Eric, thanks for your honesty! It's refreshing to hear another annoyed with God ... and preaching in the midst of it. :-). Michelle, our family's prayers will be with you. My husband and I have not been able to have any children (so far), but we do have 2 dogs who allow us to live with them in the parsonage and who reign (mostly) benevolently.
In thinking about this this week... I've looked at the "unbind him" aspect of needing help from on-lookers, at Jesus' "I am" proclamation about Resurrection and Life... But today I'm stuck with -- Death before Life. How often do we talk about life after death... and the eternal, etc. etc. But I think maybe this story has something to say to us about the necessity of Dying before Living -- dying to self before living to God; dying to sin before living in freedom; dying to the natural/earthly needs and world before living in eternity. I try to emphasize throughout the Lenten Season that we use this period to have God "create in us clean hearts"... and that oftentimes involves pruning and cutting away old, fruitless shoots, as well as some of our "favorite" sins. I wonder where this will go?? What does this say to my grieving widows? to my folks dying with cancer? to those who have lost family members to the underworld of addiction, but continue to pray for new life? What does this say to this drained, annoyed with God preacher who feels like most days are just "trying to get through the Season"? Sorry if this is too long --- thanks for continuing to be a vital part of my Christian community! Shalom --RevAmy
Date: 11 Mar 2002
Time: 13:35:12
First -- Eric, thanks for your honesty! It's refreshing to hear another annoyed with God ... and preaching in the midst of it. :-). Michelle, our family's prayers will be with you. My husband and I have not been able to have any children (so far), but we do have 2 dogs who allow us to live with them in the parsonage and who reign (mostly) benevolently.
In thinking about this this week... I've looked at the "unbind him" aspect of needing help from on-lookers, at Jesus' "I am" proclamation about Resurrection and Life... But today I'm stuck with -- Death before Life. How often do we talk about life after death... and the eternal, etc. etc. But I think maybe this story has something to say to us about the necessity of Dying before Living -- dying to self before living to God; dying to sin before living in freedom; dying to the natural/earthly needs and world before living in eternity. I try to emphasize throughout the Lenten Season that we use this period to have God "create in us clean hearts"... and that oftentimes involves pruning and cutting away old, fruitless shoots, as well as some of our "favorite" sins. I wonder where this will go?? What does this say to my grieving widows? to my folks dying with cancer? to those who have lost family members to the underworld of addiction, but continue to pray for new life? What does this say to this drained, annoyed with God preacher who feels like most days are just "trying to get through the Season"? Sorry if this is too long --- thanks for continuing to be a vital part of my Christian community! Shalom --RevAmy
Date: 11 Mar 2002
Time: 13:37:53
oops! sorry for the multiple postings. working from a different computer and account today. RevAmy
Date: 11 Mar 2002
Time: 13:46:34
Manners are manners if no one explains how would someone know? I was informed politely many years ago and appreciated being let in on the "internet posting language.
Is anyone connecting this passage to the dry bones? It seems like there is a tie. I can't seem to get my finger on it. Nancy-Wi
Date: 11 Mar 2002
Time: 13:55:33
Jim in CT asked, "You Greek scholars, is the word used for weeping in vs 33 the same as in vs 35? I don't have my Strong's concordance handy..."
I make no pretence to be a "Greek scholar" but the answer to your question is "No."
The word used to describe Mary's weeping is "klaio" -- it really means more "mourning" or "bewailing" or "lamenting" -- it really carries a greater emphasis on grief and pain than the verb "dakruo" used to describe Jesus' weeping. "Dakruo" merely means "to shed tears" - there is no specific emotional content in the verb itself, it seems simply to describe the physical act of shedding tears.
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 11 Mar 2002
Time: 13:59:52
Nancy-WI asked, "Is anyone connecting this passage to the dry bones? It seems like there is a tie. I can't seem to get my finger on it."
Yep -- I am. I think the tie is in the Spirit, the Breath of God. Isn't it the Jewish tradition that the spirit leaves the body after three days. Since Lazarus was dead at least that long, his spirit had departed. Thus, God in the Ezekiel prophecy and God in Jesus in the raising of Lazarus restore the spirit to the lifeless physical entity.
I'm still working on this, but that's where I'm working....
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 11 Mar 2002
Time: 14:16:43
Nancy-Wi
Thank you. It might be helpful to say that I believe everything posted on this sight is important, vital to the discussion. With no easy way to use italics, I find it helpful to use all caps for one word (or two) in a sentence, if I want to emphasize the word. However, using all caps for an entire sentence is not helpful. Maybe to put such an important sentence in a paragraph all by itself would serve to make it stand out in a way that is easy to read without violating internet etiquette.
Yes, I also agree that the connection to the dry bones is inspiring (forgive the pun). However, there is also a bit of a conundrum, as the breath is never commanded in this story. It is as if the bones are commanded (Lazarus, Come out) and he comes forth, alive, but... without spirit?
There is a saying that once Lazarus was raised from the dead, he never smiled again. That is folklore, and I don't believe it, but someone else out there may have heard this as well.
Michelle
Date: 11 Mar 2002
Time: 15:21:41
Thanks Eric for looking up "weeping." And thanks RevAmy for your thoughts on Death before Life. You are so right - to do anything new, to go anywhere new (in spirit or geographically), to be anything new, to choose anything new, to find a new perspective or insight, to believe in new ways, we do indeed have to die to what "was." And it is hard to part with the familiar, what has been of comfort. But in this view, dying is not an end, not "bad", but it is a doorway to the next thing, next step, next stage, next place. I suppose this is true of all the little deaths we go through as well as the big one! This does tie in with Ezekiel too - for we may not feel at times that something new is possible and death is final, or we may not want to go to thru the door to some new life.But we can't seem to have both new life and no dying to anything. On the subject of church "thrival" vs survival I have I have put it this way to the congregation - everyone says they want the church to "grow". The real question is are we wiling to do what it takes to "grow" - are we willing to change and meet the calling we have before us NOW. Growing means changing in some ways - and that means dying to some old ways - not that they are "bad" but that what was useful or helpful years ago may not be so today and for the next decades. The church may not be able to grow and also stay the same. When I ask, "are you willing to grow if it means changing" some folks get real quiet. Sorry for the run-on blather this week. Jim in CT
Date: 11 Mar 2002
Time: 15:23:05
Thanks Eric for looking up "weeping." And thanks RevAmy for your thoughts on Death before Life. You are so right - to do anything new, to go anywhere new (in spirit or geographically), to be anything new, to choose anything new, to find a new perspective or insight, to believe in new ways, we do indeed have to die to what "was." And it is hard to part with the familiar, what has been of comfort. But in this view, dying is not an end, not "bad", but it is a doorway to the next thing, next step, next stage, next place. I suppose this is true of all the little deaths we go through as well as the big one! This does tie in with Ezekiel too - for we may not feel at times that something new is possible and death is final, or we may not want to go to thru the door to some new life.But we can't seem to have both new life and no dying to anything. On the subject of church "thrival" vs survival I have I have put it this way to the congregation - everyone says they want the church to "grow". The real question is are we wiling to do what it takes to "grow" - are we willing to change and meet the calling we have before us NOW. Growing means changing in some ways - and that means dying to some old ways - not that they are "bad" but that what was useful or helpful years ago may not be so today and for the next decades. The church may not be able to grow and also stay the same. When I ask, "are you willing to grow if it means changing" some folks get real quiet. Sorry for the run-on blather this week. Jim in CT
Date: 11 Mar 2002
Time: 15:38:17
Eric, You wondered why Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead in person rather than healing or restoring him from a distance, as he had with Jairus's daughter.
I get the sense that Jesus went to Bethany and waited until Lazarus was clearly, undeniably dead (I'm starting to hear the Munchkins sing here...) because of the fact that Passover was coming very soon. Jesus was well aware that the time was coming for him to die, and raising a man from the dead so close to Jerusalem was certainly a good way to make a statement. Visitors to Jerusalem would certainly hear about what had happened, and pehaps be drawn to God. In addition, this was a show-down with the religious authorities, for as John pointed out, this clinched their decision that Jesus must die. I've been thinking about preaching about the bravery and commitment of Jesus to go to Bethany knowing that he was signing his own death warrant by raising Lazarus from the dead. Oftentimes it takes much courage to take a stand for what is right, and we can learn from this example. Then again, I always like to preach on Martha's protestation, usually quoting from the KJV (but Lord, he stinketh). Here stands the One who made heaven and earth from nothing, who holds the power of life and death in his hands, and human beings can offer up all kinds of arguments about why God can't accomplish something!
Bonnie in PA
Date: 11 Mar 2002
Time: 15:50:18
Before we get too technical about the all caps lets remember that not all of us see as well as others. When I write to my sister I have to use all caps so that she can easily read the E-mail. Lifes is too important to take issue with all caps.
Harold in Alabama
Date: 11 Mar 2002
Time: 16:40:23
Amen! Jim in CT! We should "get it!" Isn't this a packed lesson? I have found the gospels readings for the last few Sundays just so very powerful! lp in CO
Date: 11 Mar 2002
Time: 16:55:25
RevAmy, I think you said what I was tyring to say, in a sense. You said that there is death before life. I think we can see that in a larger sense or in our everyday lives. To the widows, the persons with cancer, those families who have illness after illness--this is the hope. I like to compare death to birth. This is over simplistic, I know. However, if a babe in the womb were asked if he or she wanted to come out of that place, the answer might be "No. It's comfy in here!" Think of what would be missed. Aren't all our deaths that way? We fight tooth and nail about dying period as well as dying to stuff. Yet...until we do, we don't know what we are missing. Thanks, RevAmy! lp in CO
Date: 11 Mar 2002
Time: 19:51:50
Eric in Ks, I know exactly how you feel. A few weeks ago, when the OT text was the Children of Israel complaining about God leading them out to the desert just to die of thirst, I was in the midst of personal, professional, and spiritual turmoil. "Frankly, God," I prayed, "I'm on the Israelites' side on this one. I feel like I've done everything I was supposed to do, and now I'm up against this road block. Anytime you wanna break the rock open and give me a drink, I'm ready!"
Long story short: I decided not to preach on that text, I finally broke the news to the congregation that they "would have a change in pastoral leadership", and I have an interview for a new job tomorrow. Hmmmmmm, maybe God DOES know what s/he's doing!
Date: 11 Mar 2002
Time: 19:57:18
Harry in Orlando, You might be interested in this lyric from the song "Kite" by U2, off their "All That You Can't Leave Behind" CD:
"Your packing a suitcase for a place none of us has been. A place that has to be believed to be seen."
Submitted for your consideration. Pastor Andy
Date: 11 Mar 2002
Time: 20:06:01
This is a story of great emotion and passion. First, there is Jesus "weeping" and being "greatly disturbed in Spirit and deeply moved" (v.33 throughout. Then, there is the reaction of Martha, and then Mary. When Martha encounters Jesus she is quite confrontation, "Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died." There is an implied criticism in the statement--Why didn't you come? Mary repeats almost the same words when she encounters Jesus later in the story. The difference is--Jesus' response. Jesus doesn't offer Martha an explanation or a simply platitude but enters into her pain and engages in a theological discussion that leads her to declare her belief in the resurrection (a belief held only by some of the Pharisees, not the Sadducees at the time)and her personal belief in Jesus as the Messiah. In this sense, the miracle for Martha happens well before Jesus raises Lazarus from the dead. We might call it the miracle of faith. Mary doesn't have a theological discussion with Jesus and comes to a reaffirmation of her faith (and conversion of many others) through the raising of Lazarus. I believe that the exegetical key to this text is in Jesus' interaction with the women in this story.
Date: 11 Mar 2002
Time: 20:06:53
This is a story of great emotion and passion. First, there is Jesus "weeping" and being "greatly disturbed in Spirit and deeply moved" (v.33 throughout. Then, there is the reaction of Martha, and then Mary. When Martha encounters Jesus she is quite confrontation, "Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died." There is an implied criticism in the statement--Why didn't you come? Mary repeats almost the same words when she encounters Jesus later in the story. The difference is--Jesus' response. Jesus doesn't offer Martha an explanation or a simply platitude but enters into her pain and engages in a theological discussion that leads her to declare her belief in the resurrection (a belief held only by some of the Pharisees, not the Sadducees at the time)and her personal belief in Jesus as the Messiah. In this sense, the miracle for Martha happens well before Jesus raises Lazarus from the dead. We might call it the miracle of faith. Mary doesn't have a theological discussion with Jesus and comes to a reaffirmation of her faith (and conversion of many others) through the raising of Lazarus. I believe that the exegetical key to this text is in Jesus' interaction with the women in this story.
Date: 11 Mar 2002
Time: 20:07:35
This is a story of great emotion and passion. First, there is Jesus "weeping" and being "greatly disturbed in Spirit and deeply moved" (v.33 throughout. Then, there is the reaction of Martha, and then Mary. When Martha encounters Jesus she is quite confrontation, "Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died." There is an implied criticism in the statement--Why didn't you come? Mary repeats almost the same words when she encounters Jesus later in the story. The difference is--Jesus' response. Jesus doesn't offer Martha an explanation or a simply platitude but enters into her pain and engages in a theological discussion that leads her to declare her belief in the resurrection (a belief held only by some of the Pharisees, not the Sadducees at the time)and her personal belief in Jesus as the Messiah. In this sense, the miracle for Martha happens well before Jesus raises Lazarus from the dead. We might call it the miracle of faith. Mary doesn't have a theological discussion with Jesus and comes to a reaffirmation of her faith (and conversion of many others) through the raising of Lazarus. I believe that the exegetical key to this text is in Jesus' interaction with the women in this story.
Date: 11 Mar 2002
Time: 20:09:53
contribution re: Jesus' interaction with Martha and Mary as the key to exegesis of the text submitted by RCC
Date: 11 Mar 2002
Time: 20:13:01
Does anyone else notice a sudden, rather radical shift in Jesus' demeanor? He seems so nonchalant about the whole thing - perhaps a little miffed about his thick-headed disciples - but not outwardly troubled. He begins to get a little more serious as Martha and Mary greet him with "If you were here..." but still pretty cool. Then, "Jesus wept." Is this just me, or did any of you pick up on it.
Pastor Andy
Date: 11 Mar 2002
Time: 20:26:09
OH,OH! One more thing! I was just musing about some of the differences between Lazarus' resurrection and Jesus':
1. Few witnesses to Jesus' resurrection (the number varies from one account to the other); BIG crowd for Laz's.
2. Laz's stone rolled away by human hands; Jesus by an unkown hand (angels, according to Matthew).
3. Laz emerges from the tomb in his wrappings, and Jesus orders them removed (again, by human hands); we are not told how Jesus is removed from his wrappings, just that Peter and John saw them, empty, with "the napkin, which had been on his head...rolled up in a place by itself."
Anybody notice any others? You think there might be a sermon here somewhere?
Pastor Andy
Date: 12 Mar 2002
Time: 05:25:22
I keep returning to Jesus' words "Unbind, him and let him go." Anyone else? RevMom
Date: 12 Mar 2002
Time: 05:25:43
I keep returning to Jesus' words "Unbind, him and let him go." Anyone else? RevMom
Date: 12 Mar 2002
Time: 07:12:00
There's a lot in the this passage from family systems theory that speaks to my role as a pastor. How often do we as pastors have people clamoring for us to change our schedule, family time, etc. because of one crisis after another? We like being needed by the church and are afraid of hearing the words, "if only you had been here..."
Jesus is speaking a word of freedom to us. Whereever he is, he enters fully into the emotion that is present, laughing with those that laugh, weeping with those that weep. We tend carry are emotions from one event to another, limiting our attention to the people who are with us at the moment. Often it is our families who are on the losing end of this.
As pastors, we are not the only ones who struggle with this. Most of our parishioners live complicated lives, with a number of distinct roles that are difficult to integrate. The passage is not only about resurrection, but it is also about life. Perhaps it can help us to live less anxious lives, being free to laugh and cry with those who are around us.
John in MI
Date: 12 Mar 2002
Time: 08:26:38
John in MI,
Amen. How many of us have been scolded for not being there? Thank you for this reassurance.
Michelle
Date: 12 Mar 2002
Time: 09:44:11
I intend to tie John passage to Ezekiel passage. If you have not seen the movie Dragonfly,I highly recommend it for its images that connect will with this theme. I sometimes feel like a resident in the valley of the dry bones having the juices sucked out of my life when I spend too much time in service and not enough in fellowship with the One who is the resurrection and the life. TN Mack
Date: 12 Mar 2002
Time: 11:12:16
I too am intrigued by the RevAmyism of death before life. Last year I was rejected by my congregation and had to leave - it was a real mess. Since I had great support from my husband and my bishop I got through fine, but every once in awhile in all backs up on me and I get obsessive and weepy. In once sense, it was the best thing that ever happened to me; I got toughened up by the experience and my new call is just wonderful. Yet, I was rejected, and that hurts. I'm always amazed how feelings of rejection can hang on. Even decades later a slight from high school date can still make me cringe. I wonder if rejection was part of the sister's issue with Jesus. Not just that their brother died, but that Jesus could have saved him and chose not to come in time. They felt that Jesus was rejecting their family. The common human experience of rejection feels so much like death. Here is Jesus not preventing death, but weeping with it. Here is Jesus not preventing death, but raising to new life. That preaches well to me, since I was not spared rejection by my former church, but can testify to a God who cried with me in the rejection, and then raised me to something even better - so much better that its hard to believe I used to be satisfied with what I had! Don't know if I'll share this with my congregation yet - the emotions are still raw. I think I'll be pointing to the God who both weeps with us in death/rejection and then raises us to something even better. Lisa in IL
Date: 12 Mar 2002
Time: 11:46:57
I too am moved by the words "Unbind him and let him go." This after last Sunday's message on receiving sight. These two messages seem related, because usually blind people had their eyes bound. The man born blind had his eyes unbound wen he received sight, and this week Lazarus is unbound as he receives life. This resonates in Ezekiel as well--the bones don't just rise up, but they are clothed with skin and begin to walk. Death bound them, but they are filled with life. The story for us is that Jesus (the Resurrection and the Life) unbinds us from the death that we have in our hearts. We allow death to reign in our spirits, but Jesus sets us free. Think I might use "Unbind him" or "Remove the grave clothes" as my sermon title.
Regarding whether Jesus was ever romantically involved... We are usually taught the he wasn't, but Scripture doesn't say one way or the other. It only makes sense to me that Jesus was probably romantically involved at some point, even possibly married. Jewish rabbis (correct me if I'm wrong) were REQUIRED to be married, else they could not understand the delimmas of married life and minister to them. The argument is mad that he came to die, and thus would have spared a woman the grief and pain of being his widow. But did he really come to die, or did he come to live and give us life? I'm not saying that Jesus didn't sacrifice himself for us--I'm saying that his death was a very brief period in his life, and he lived 33 years on earth (or at least 30) as any other man. I find it highly probable that he married. Of course, that'd be hard to teach, as most of my parishioners wouldn't understand.
Greg Smith, Pastor Piedmont Baptist Church Amelia VA USA
Date: 12 Mar 2002
Time: 11:47:05
Regarding the "Jesus Wept" verse. One interpretation is that this is Jesus weeping over his coming passion. There is not the passion narrative in John as in the other Synoptics. Some scholors have offered that in John, this is where Jesus' emotion and fear of his fate comes out.
Apollo Guy Tx
Date: 12 Mar 2002
Time: 11:55:14
I'm so excited that I seem to have some piece of where I want to go with the Scripture this week on Tuesday instead of Saturday this week. (Have I just utterted/typed some sort of knock-on-wood statement, perhaps? I can still see the Spirit swooping in on Saturday night and saying... "Or maybe not..." :-)
A couple of things I'm working on that I thought I would share -- for what it's worth.
1) What would Martha's concept (and thus that society's) of what the "last days resurrection" would look or be like? I don't know much about Jewish beliefs about resurrection -- then or now, but figure I need to if I'm going to figure out what Jesus was talking about. "I am the resurrection."
2) I understand from several folks, though I haven't read it lately, that the Jewish understanding was/is (?) that the soul would linger around the body for 3 days... before it would "go on" -- to where ever it went. Is this true? What then is the significance of Laz's 4 days dead and Jesus' raised on the 3rd day? Also, I know from hospital chaplaincy that when a devout (?) Jew dies, the body is not left alone, someone, often a Rabbi, come and sits with it/him/her. I can't remember why or for how long. But I also seem to remember that the burial should take place as soon as possible... maybe within 24 hours? Anybody know anything about this?
3) I was at the place that is remembered at Lazarus' tomb last April. One of the things I remember vividly about it was that it had fairly narrow, somewhat windy steps down into the tomb. What kind of bindings did Lazarus have? and how did he come up out of the tomb? Just a different image -- also powerful in the coming up and out, I think.
4) Last thing for now... lp in CO mentioned something about a baby in the womb not being sure about birth. For those of you who haven't read or heard Henri Nouwen's beautiful story about the twins in the womb debating whether or not there is a mother? or life after birth? or what is the true meaning on those squeezing feelings?... I commend it to you! I have used it often in funeral services -- I think from his book, Our Greatest Gift (p. 19). I'd be willing to post the story or send it, but hesitate to take up the space. Let me know if you there's a need/desire. YOu may all know this anyway. I just love it.
Thanks and God's blessings to you this day -- RevAmy
Date: 12 Mar 2002
Time: 12:12:49
Ok, one more question. I pastor a church in TN that is not too far away from Noble, GA. Some of you may be familar with that town name now because of the news with the cremetorium that has continued to accept deceased folks and evidently not burn them. To date I believe about 350 bodies have been found around the property. No one in my church (to my knowledge) has a family member who was ... involved in with that facility. But some live and have worked with the family... and we all react abit oddly these days when we talk about "bodies". I'm just trying to figure out what, if anything, to be aware of or watch out for in preaching this dead body, stinking, be raised story. Any insight? RevAmy
Date: 12 Mar 2002
Time: 12:39:48
REV Amy I would love to see the post of the twins talking it over....if you don't mind posting it? Thanks so much. It seems the text for this weekend is complicated yet very simple. We can read as much into as we want or just take it on faith, Jesus raised his friend from the dead. What mystery revealed and unfolded before our eyes. This Jesus is Lord of life itself. How can I follow Jesus most closely? What can I do to get Jesus on my side? How do I change and become a follower of Jesus? I hope to share these questions and have the congregation thinking about them during my homily. Death to life! Death gives way to new life. Sadness leads to joy! Pax, old priest in Iowa
Date: 12 Mar 2002
Time: 12:40:13
Pastor Andy, the U2 lyrics you quote are great, I'm glad you reminded me of them. But they are not from the song "Kite", they are from "Walk On", a song on the same CD. Thanks everyone for the great discussion! PastorSteph in SD
Date: 12 Mar 2002
Time: 12:42:31
REV Amy I would love to see the post of the twins talking it over....if you don't mind posting it? Thanks so much. It seems the text for this weekend is complicated, yet very simple. We can read as much into as we want, or just take it on faith. Jesus raised his friend from the dead. What a deep mystery is revealed and unfolded before our eyes. This Jesus is Lord of life itself. How can I follow Jesus more closely? What can I do to get Jesus on my side? How do I change and become a follower of Jesus? I hope to share these questions and have the congregation thinking about them during my homily. Death to life! Death gives way to new life. Sadness leads to joy! Pax, old priest in Iowa
Date: 12 Mar 2002
Time: 13:10:31
My Baptist friend Gary Smith wrote: "The argument is mad that he came to die, and thus would have spared a woman the grief and pain of being his widow. But did he really come to die, or did he come to live and give us life? I'm not saying that Jesus didn't sacrifice himself for us--I'm saying that his death was a very brief period in his life, and he lived 33 years on earth (or at least 30) as any other man. I find it highly probable that he married. Of course, that'd be hard to teach, as most of my parishioners wouldn't understand."
Wonderful! Never thought to hear a Baptist voicing this sort of speculation, but this has always been my suspicion. As to Jesus coming to live or die, have you read Leslie Weatherhead's "The Will of God". This is precisely his point -- that Jesus came in the hope that people would FOLLOW him not KILL him! That is what L.W. called "God's intentional will"... When they didn't follow, and made it clear they would kill ... God's "circumstantial will" was to allow Jesus' death and turn it back on itself so that it became a saving act.
But all this is sort of off the subject ... except - are you suggesting that one of the Bethany sisters might have been Jesus' spouse? Speculation usually focuses on the Magdalene, but one of these girls would certainly be a candidate.
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 12 Mar 2002
Time: 14:27:18
Yeah well the story goes that Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene and that she traveled to what is now France and bore his child who sired the line of kings know as Merovingian. Since my family is somehow descended from the Merovingian line then if this is true I am a descendant of Jesus. Ha Ha Ha!!! The nut really fell far away from that tree.
I don't know whether Jesus married or not. I think that speculation on what cannot be proved or disproved just gets in the way of the message of the Gospel. But for those who have too much time on their hands or need a diversion you might click on this web site. I wouldn't put any stock in it. In any case, I'd rather be an adopted son of God then be a blood relative that behaved so poorly. --- Deke in Texas - Pace e Bene.
http://watch.pair.com/merovingian.html
Date: 12 Mar 2002
Time: 14:27:45
The following is a somewhat long quote (story) from Henri Nouwen about Life After Birth. Feel free to "engage in the copious use of the scroll key" as one of our old friends here used to say...
Our Greatest Gift: A Meditation on Dying and Caring by Henri Nouwen
p. 19ff
Recently a friend told me a story about twins talking to each other in the womb. The sister said to the brother, “I believe there is life after birth.” Her brother protested vehemently, “No, no, this is all there is. This is a dark and cozy place, and we have nothing else to do but to cling to the cord that feed us.” The little girl insisted, “There must be something more than this dark place. There must be something else, a place with light where there is freedom to move.” Still she could not convince her twin brother. After some silence, the sister said hesitantly, “I have something else to say, and I’m afraid you won’t believe that, either, but I think there is a mother.” Her brother became furious. “A mother!” he shouted. “What are you talking about? I have never seen a mother, and neither have you. Who put that idea in your head? As I told you, this place is all we have. Why do you always want more? This is not such a bad place, after all. We have all we need, so let’s be content.” The sister was quite overwhelmed by her brother’s response and for a while didn’t dare say anything more. But she couldn’t let go of her thought, and since she had only her twin brother to speak to, she finally said “Don’t you feel these squeezes every once in a while? They ‘re quite unpleasant and sometimes even painful.” “Yes, “ he answered. “What’s special about that?” “Well,” the sister said, “ I think that these squeezes are there to get us ready for another place, more beautiful than this, where we will see our mother face-to-face. Don’t you think that’s exciting? The brother didn’t answer. He was fed up with the foolish talk of his sister and felt that the best thing would be simply to ignore her and hope that she would leave him alone. This story may help us to think about death in a new way. We can live as if this life were all we had, as if death were absurd and we had better not talk about it; or we can choose to claim our divine childhood and trust that death is the painful but blessed passage that will bring us face-to-face with God.” Shalom -- RevAmy
Date: 12 Mar 2002
Time: 17:14:50
Any chance Jesus was weeping over our in ability to fully believe and trust? To have faith? Nancy-Wi
Date: 12 Mar 2002
Time: 17:21:49
RevAmy, Thanks so very much for the excerpt from Henri Nouwen. It seems that the Spirit just used you this week in this forum. What an affirmation of your call. Blessings! lp in CO
Date: 12 Mar 2002
Time: 17:36:11
Good postings, the idea about multiple reserrections intrigues me. I think it is true. As we pass through the stages of life, we are born to new roles, new situtations. Often the transistions are dry periods where winds of change swirl. The life of the spirit breathes new life into us as we come to accept our new roles. I also appreciate the song lyric. It seems like I am always packing up something and unpacking something. Nancy-Wi
Date: 12 Mar 2002
Time: 17:38:16
There is a cute skit with mice and a farmer about the exsistance of God. I'm not sure where to find it however. Nancy-Wi
Date: 12 Mar 2002
Time: 20:11:34
Since we have been in John, I thought that I would do a fast read through the Gospel of John, I had been working out of the lectionary and had lost my sense of the flow of the Gospel. When I got to the raising of Lazarus I found a note on verses 33 and 38. "he was greatly disturbed," and "Then Jesus, again greatly disturbed." It said that the Greek literally is that Jesus snorted in spirit, and suggested that it was perhaps in anger at the presence of evil ( death).
It's like Jesus is having a dress rehearsal with death and evil before the real deal. The raising of Lazarus not only prefigured His death on the cross but is a major factor in coalescing the plot against Him.
In this passage we find Jesus exhibiting two emotions - sadness and anger. It reminds me of when my sons did something that disappointed me - a mixed emotion of sadness and anger. This probably comes out of love for the prodigals.
By the way the discussions have been excellent lately. I sometimes pick up something to use in preaching and sometimes not, but the one thing that this site does is get the juices flowing. Often the homily takes on a completely different direction then where I had thought it was going. I like that. It is those times that I feel that I am cooperating with the Spirit instead of trying to force the words of the Gospel to follow my lead.
Deke in Texas - Pace e Bene
Date: 13 Mar 2002
Time: 01:08:47
Nancy in WI -- I have used that skit as well. In fact, I seem to remember (vaguely) that I played one of the mice... and that there was a question about whether or not there was a "farmer". The farmer was an off-stage voice of God type of thing? When I'm back in the office tomorrow I'll look to see if I can find it. btw -- last week I used the "Readers Theater" concept reading for the gospel that Anne in Providence had mentioned in "Previous Postings" section. Thanks Anne for sharing that material with me. My congregation loved it. How much more depth and context than trying to read 41 verses to folk who live in a "sound byte" society. I'll be doing that with this text again this week. Just teasing out the different voices and allowing different people to read the parts. In case anyone else had been struggling with how to faithfully present these long passages of Scripture. What else have you guys done? RevAmy
Date: 13 Mar 2002
Time: 01:32:27
How and when did Martha get to the tomb? Jesus was talking to Mary. And the text specifically said that the Jews followed her because they thought she was going to the tomb to mourn. But then Martha pops back in at the tomb. Was she waiting there to see what Jesus had in mind? Was she mourning? Did someone go back and get here to tell her to come? Just middle of the night musings. (Sad really, to not be able to sleep and to come read about smelly dead men instead. :-) ) Blessings --RevAmy (again)
Date: 13 Mar 2002
Time: 05:55:07
RevAmy
It would make sense that when Martha went to call Mary, she also returned with her to Jesus.
Michelle
Date: 13 Mar 2002
Time: 07:16:59
Lots of notes to lots of folks -
To those disputing whether to take this literally or not... I do. As I see it, this guy who was dead (as in ... really dead) for four days was raised to life by Jesus.
Michelle, I grieve with you on the loss of your beloved pet. I'm a dog person myself.
Nancy-wi and lp in CO - Like your comments about how "stinky" we can be and how Jesus brings us out of that state. Being born again, if it means anything, means leaving that which stinks (in our own lives) behind to follow Christ. I think it also includes following Him to stinky places to bring people out.
Jim in CT - If Strong's isn't handy and the internet is, http://www.blueletterbible.org/ has it.
Does anyone know where I can find the text to the play "Lazarus Laughed" by Eugene O'Neill? Seems appropriate here.
Peace, JG in WI
Date: 13 Mar 2002
Time: 08:13:02
It probably won't help for this Sunday, but there is an organization called "Faith Comes by Hearing" that records the New Testament on cassette and CD in drama and non-drama form. Last week I played the John reading from the dramatized tape. It was much better than listening to me drone on!!
http://www.faithcomesbyhearing.org/
Date: 13 Mar 2002
Time: 08:22:25
PB in England -
You offer an insight I never thought of before - one that brings forth the power of the Holy Spirit giving life ("breath") to dead bodies. That's what mouth-to-mouth resuscitation is about.
I'm calling mine "For Pete's Sake" because it's for not just Pete's sake but for all of ours that Jesus brought Laz out of the tomb. and for all of us to have the opportunity towards new/resuscitated life. I'm tying it with Ezekiel.
Around here, maybe you can help with this, is a crematory that made national news because it's been burying bodies in the family's back yard for who-knows-how-long (at least 15 years) because their cremation machine (don't know what it's called) has been broken. It's gruesome no matter where you live, but that it's in our general area casts this in new light. This is more related to the Zeke text, but more people come here.
And, finally, a celebration/prayer request: we had a GREAT Girl Scout Sunday last week. A couple families indicated that they'd like to return - so I ask your prayers for our little "turn-around" church.
Sally in GA (missed y'all last week)
Date: 13 Mar 2002
Time: 08:29:32
And, incidentally, that the bones and Lazarus might be considered as having been resuscitated into new life doesn't take one bit from the truth of the story - they were still physically given NEW LIFE. Such is our hope until the final resurrection. Another difference (pardon my thinking out loud) might be that PEOPLE (Ezekiel, Jesus) speaking brought new life to the dead, whereas when Jesus was resurrected it was directly from God. No one called him forth nor prophesied to bring him new life.
Sally in GA
Date: 13 Mar 2002
Time: 08:35:54
Hi everyone--thanks for a great discussion again this week. I offer the following illustration for you to consider.
Paula in sunny Fl
Jack Fuller was living out his dream. Then one day he noticed that his joints were sore and he felt sick. The illness didn’t go away; instead it got worse. In the days before antibiotics the illness had to run its course. In the months Jack spent recovering he was still happy. He viewed his illness as an opportunity to read and learn which would help him in his career. By the time he had recovered, he had a heart murmur that prevented him from serving in the army during the Second World War. He became a math teacher running a repair shop for electrical appliances from his home. But Jack became sick again and this time the fever did not break. He got sicker and sicker until he could barely move. He was forced to go to the hospital where he learned that he had polio and was paralyzed. No one was allowed to visit him. Jack had lost 45 percent of his body mass and probably weighed no more than ninety pounds. The doctors feared that he would die. Jack thought he was going to die when his family was called into the hospital. Then came a defining moment in his life. Jack described his experience as walking down a long tunnel. “At the end was a door with a big bright light” he remembered. He walked all the way down the tunnel and opened the door. He remembers seeing the Jesus dressed in a brilliant white robe. The figure he met wouldn’t let him through the door. The Lord told him, “You can’t come yet, Jack. You have to go back.” Jack had a deep faith and accepted what the Lord told him. He remembers climbing all the way back down through the tunnel. When he woke up in the hospital bed he realized that he was not dying. The Lord gave him a command. He had work to do, and God wanted him to do it. “I didn’t know what plans he had for me,” Jack recalls thinking at the time. “But I never had the slightest doubt that I would be able to go back to work and take care of my family. Even when I was totally paralyzed, I had no doubt.” Jack would remain in the hospital for many months slowly making progress. Fifty years later this vision has not dimmed. Before Jack ever left the hospital he was able to help a young man suffering from polio. He would return to work never really considering anything an obstacle. Today Jack is retired and is still making a difference in his community, recently helping to raise money to provide transportation for the handicapped in his community. Someone who knows Jack says he, “is such a gentle hero. He has spent a lifetime using his special talents to get things done and to help others." (1)
1. Moments of Truth, Tony Wainwright and Mike Celizic, New York: New American Library, 2001, pp. 71-78.
Date: 13 Mar 2002
Time: 10:51:19
What kind of testimony might the risen Lazarus offer us about the experience of death and new life?? If a sermon was offered in his voice, what might be the substance? What richness of meaning would be gleaned by reflecting on his life lived previously; on his relationships with his sisters, his friends the disciples, and Jesus himself? What expectations did he have of Jesus? How do things now look from the other side of the grave, and what is he being "unbound" for? It seems to me that such reflection could lead us to deeper distinctions between "resucitation" and "resurrection" Many thanks to everyone for the tremendous contributions.
Pastor Scott in PA
Date: 13 Mar 2002
Time: 11:37:40
I am only reading Ezekiel 37 to my congregation, but I'm going to refer to the Lazarus story, too. Since I'm focusing on the topic of new life in the midst of hopelessness, I thought these two texts fit together well. This is how I'm going to introduce the Lazarus story. Hopefully they'll be at least a little bit of surprise for everyone. "There's the story about a man who got very sick. In fact, his family was told that he probably wasn't going to make it. The family sent for the preacher, but they found out the preacher was out of town. They just hoped he could get there before the man died. Well, the preacher didn't make it in time. The man died. In fact, they went ahead and had the funeral because the preacher was taking so long to get back into town. When he finally showed up, the family was heartbroken, upset, and about every other emotion you can imagine. In fact, one of the dead man's sisters went up to the preacher and said, 'If you had been here, my brother would not have died.'” Then I'm going to reveal that this story is about Lazarus, and I'll hopefully be able to tie in the theme of new life in hopelessness. Lisa in OK
Date: 13 Mar 2002
Time: 12:10:56
Eric in KS,
You said it's unusual to hear a Baptist talking the way I do, but I'm really not a typical Baptist. They'd call me a liberal freak if they knew all the things I think about! Ha!
I think that Mary Magdelene is the best candidate for Jesus' wife. Mary and Martha lived there in Bethany with their brother. If Jesus was married, then I think his wife would have traveled with him, which Mary seems to have done.
-Greg Smith, pastor Piedmont Baptist Church Amelia, VA USA
Date: 13 Mar 2002
Time: 12:16:55
Re Pastor Scott's post and others around resurrection/resuscitation ... maybe it would be helpful to consider that eternal life isn't just about quantity [living forever, mere resuscitation], but also about quality [living to the glory of God, resurrection.] I think I am going to focus on the unbinding of Laz --removing the last lingering raimant of death and exchanging it for that of life, a life "full of life" so to speak. Incidentally, I suppose Laz would be a naked as a newborn babe when they removed the grave clothes ...? Perhaps tombs really are wombs ... Thanks everybody for all the grist for the sermon mill. RevRake in MI
Date: 13 Mar 2002
Time: 12:25:20
I don't think Jesus is weeping over his Passion here. I think he is weeping in response to the sorrow and grief he witnesses in Mary and the crowd (verses 32 & 33.) Jesus is weeping over the angst of the human condition which he himself feels at this point. Both Martha and Mary have confronted him with "Lord if you had been here my brother would not have died." In other words, "where were you?" Isn't this a question of the human condition and incarnational theology? Where is God in the suffering of the world? Where is God in the refugee camps of Afghanistan? Jesus weeps with us. Emmanuel "God with us." I'd like to be really provocative here and suggest that Martha believes in the midst of disappointment that Jesus had not come sooner, in the midst of her sorrow, in the midst of questioning Jesus--she still believes in the resurrection and in Jesus as the Son of God. This is the miracle of faith. To believe in the midst of the pain of the human condition. We participate as active--not passive, agents in that miracle by taking that leap of faith. Jesus "weeps" out of compassion for the sorrow and suffering he sees. Marcus Borg writes at length about how compassion (from the Hebrew root "womb") distinguishes him from the holiness code of the Hebrew Scriptures. In turn, we are called to be compassionate to others in our world as witnesses to the miracle of faith and belief in the resurrection. Thanks for the excerpt from Henri Nouwen. Roberta in Quebec
Date: 13 Mar 2002
Time: 14:37:38
It is interesting to read all of the reflections of the importance of pets in our lives and how very much we miss them of anguish over having to sometime let them go. It occurs to me that our pets are examples of absolute complete and unselfish devotion to us. Our pain the prospect of eventually having to give this up and to live without it.
Our Savior devotes his love to us also in a most complete and unselfish way; such that he died for us and continues to advocate for us in eternity.
This miracle of Lazarus helps us to understand the Resurection of Jesus because it shows us his power over death.
If we can translate the love of and for our pets into understanding the devotion of our Savior, it will be a great source of strength.
Hal in Wisconsin
Date: 13 Mar 2002
Time: 16:52:51
A thought about Mary's question to Jesus. After my wife's father died after Christmas, I was reading a book about the loss of a parent. Amidst the helpful thoughts was the notion that in the days after a death (maybe before as well)the absence of someone at the viewing or funeral is something that is noted. I was taken back when a couple of her sisters offered harsh words for those who hadn't "bothered" to come pay their respects. Even the ones who were out of town were a little bit suspect. On the othe side were those who had brought by a dish of food or had come to the viewing (when they hadn't been expected). It adds a touch of normalcy to this story -- and can be helpful with folks we deal with. The book also said that the hard feelings tend to be held on to for some time. I know the positive ones do as well; some people will always call me a saint because I was there when things got tough under the south end of the horse. SupChap in Pa
Date: 13 Mar 2002
Time: 17:33:11
Jesus says, "I am the resurrection and the life." Without "the resurrection," death casts a pall over life, reminiscent of parts of Ecclesiastes (depressing). Without "the life" eternal life-as-we-know-it would be monotony; what would have the power to move us if this earthly life stretched on forever? I'm working with a focus on vv 25-26, especially what it means for one to respond Yes to Jesus' query, "Do you believe this?"
Jeff in Jacksonville, FL
Date: 13 Mar 2002
Time: 19:01:52
Good Stuff in this passage NANCY-WI is probably a Elder in long flowing robes...LOL know what Jesus said about those! SLP's get no respect! Like Rodney Dangerfield! When I get my "LONG FLOWING ROBE" I will probably be nitpicky too LOL (no apoligy for CAPS, for emphasize , Ms Nancy, Grammar perfectionist)
Date: 13 Mar 2002
Time: 19:03:09
Pastor Steph- And I call myself a U2 fanatic! I hang my head in shame! Pastor Andy
Date: 13 Mar 2002
Time: 19:14:09
Thinking about emphasizing the 4 days...too late...hmmm I have been in a prayer meeting-bible study. I comment in that study was refering to days... 3 days ressurection, 3 for trinity, 6 number of man,7 spiritual perfection, 8 new dawn, 10 order perfection, 12 diving government perfection, 40 days-desert time, 40 days to ascension 10 days till pentecost.... we know literal days 10 til pentecost- but passages do have double meaning- like Isiah. ARE WE LIVING IN THE 10 day period? Waiting, looking up? This thought coinsides with 4 day wait...Jesus tarying...will tary longer for GOD's GLORY! I think this is an important point because of what is going on right before our eyes on the NEWS! (NBC, CNN, FOX MSNBC) LOOK AT ISREAL NOW! THE FIG TREE! WILL THE LORD TARY LONGER? Pastors in all denominations are looking and thinking...One Commentator used the Days like 2 days 2000 years Jesus Taries... Are we living on borrowed time? Third day, Jesus ressurection, 4 days lazarus experience... NO man knoweth the time...Jesus will come, we have that hope, when? 3 days or 4? Are you ready? Do you cry out to him like the psalm states? This is such a pwerful scripture, message? I feel an altar call this Sunday!!!! Methodists don't do that often! LADYPREACHER IN OHIO
Date: 14 Mar 2002
Time: 00:13:47
Whether I take the truth of this story literally or figuratively is beside the point. Either way, I feel called to preach it figuratively.
Like I did the new birth Jesus offered Nicodemus (though he mistook literally). Like I did the living water Jesus offered the Samaritan woman. Like I did the sight Jesus offered the Pharisees in their "blindness."
If I preach it literally, how do I face the fact that I have never tried to literally raise someone from the dead. Even someone tragically, prematurely dead in the midst of much grieving when the glory of God could really have been dramatic if I had? How do I apply it literally to my life or the lives of parishoners without freaking them out? Oh, I believe there have been people miraculously revived from death (maybe not after 4 days)but it is not at all common and to stick with a literal understanding of this story (regardless of its factuality) am I doing anything beyond what a grocery store tabloid could do?
Now when you talk about the figurative deaths in our midsts-- churches, relationships, addictions, dead-end materialistic values, etc.-- and invite a healthy application of "I am the resurrection and the life," if you sound an authoritative, "roll away the stone," "Lazarus, come out!" or "unbind him," why, then this gospel takes on a relevance and power. Then it speaks not just to our need to be impressed or amazed but to our propensity to give up in the face of the death around us. It speaks to the genuuine feelings of hopeless that connect this story with the valley of dry bones (which I don't preach literally either). Surely, "Our hope is clean cut off," describes our response to too many of life's circumstances and social issues just as easily as it describes Mary and Martha.
pHil
Date: 14 Mar 2002
Time: 05:04:47
Rev Amy - you are my heroine!
my only meager comment is to encourage the congregation to remember that healing is a process not an event...too many times hurting people among others think that a healing event will immediately make everything all right and when they are not completely restored and completely free from pain - physical, emotional, etc. - they feel abandoned by God and others shalom, ann
Date: 14 Mar 2002
Time: 05:05:39
For the last three weeks - with these long stories from John - I've been breaking the text into parts; narrator, Jesus, disciples, crowd, blind man, etc. I then hand these out on Sunday morning to as many people as there are parts and then we read it kind of like a reader's theater. It has been a good thing as it has brought more life into these long passages. Mark in WI
Date: 14 Mar 2002
Time: 05:06:46
For the last three weeks - with these long stories from John - I've been breaking the text into parts; narrator, Jesus, disciples, crowd, blind man, etc. I then hand these out on Sunday morning to as many people as there are parts and then we read it kind of like a reader's theater. It has been a good thing as it has brought more life into these long passages. Mark in WI
Date: 14 Mar 2002
Time: 05:07:38
For the last three weeks - with these long stories from John - I've been breaking the text into parts; narrator, Jesus, disciples, crowd, blind man, etc. I then hand these out on Sunday morning to as many people as there are parts and then we read it kind of like a reader's theater. It has been a good thing as it has brought more life into these long passages. Mark in WI
Date: 14 Mar 2002
Time: 06:01:28
Sorry about that - as I post I must remember - patience is a virtue...
Also - from the New Interepreter's Bible page 686 - in response to the question about whether the four days was significant.
"According to popular Jewish belief at the time of Jesus, the soul hovered around the body in the grave for three days after death, hoping to reneter the body. But after the third day, when the soul 'sees the color of its face has changed,' the soul leaves the body for good.
Mark in WI
Date: 14 Mar 2002
Time: 06:07:08
pHil,
You said, "If I preach it literally, how do I face the fact that I have never tried to literally raise someone from the dead."
I don't believe we need to be able to claim that we have tried to do everything that Jesus did. Have we ever tried to turn water into wine? If this text is only figurative, then does Jesus not have power over life and death? I certainly do not claim to have that power. The powers of God were at Jesus' command, not mine. I can pray for healing, but I cannot be the healer Jesus was (IS!).
Jesus didn't raise every (good) person from the dead. Nor did he heal every blind man. He did not cast out all demons, as we might believe should have been done.
You have chosen to preach the text figuratively, that's okay. Please don't preach that that's all there is to this text. What if it is real, and you take away the hope of a person with someone in a coma (not dead, I know, but...)?
Please don't take offense, this is not intended to hurt.
Thanks, Michelle
Date: 14 Mar 2002
Time: 06:29:35
The following verse caught my attention. Would this have happened 12days before the crucifixion? or the trial? 11:9 Jesus answered, "Are there not twelve hours of daylight? Those who walk during the day do not stumble, because they see the light of this world.
11:10 But those who walk at night stumble, because the light is not in them." Do we stumble when we shut Christ out of our lives and walk in darkness. The other verse a little earlier Jesus says:11:4 But when Jesus heard it, he said, "This illness does not lead to death; rather it is for God's glory, so that the Son of God may be glorified through it." THis seems to make the weeping different at the tomb. pondering, Nancy-Wi
Date: 14 Mar 2002
Time: 06:41:55
I hope that each week I preach to raise people from the dead. The spiritual dead. I pray that through my words, a spark of interest, a renewal of faith, or some such thing happens by the Holy Spirit. In many ways people do come to church seeking that spark along with the reasurrance of God's love. Many battle through weeks of " sitting under the south end of a horse" and through us God works. Sorry for the rambling but the long flowing robe seems to have me floating abstractly a bit. not an elder yet. Nancy-Wi
Date: 14 Mar 2002
Time: 07:36:42
Looked back over a sermon to seminary students from some years ago "Easter Words, Jesus Wept". I took the weeping/groaning to be a mixture of grief and anger. The tears from heartbreak of friends and anger from a group of paid mourners which surrounded Jewish funerals. Nothing is more frustrating than a bunch of professional preachers surrounding you when your heart is breaking. In contrast I shared an account from a book by the late Grady Nutt, "So Good So Far" in which he tells of a pivotal session with a confrontational seminary professor, Samuel (Sim) Southard. Grady was guided to open up in a way he had never done before. Grady: "I had not looked directly at him even once. I glanced over my left shoulder at Sim Southard, the "Hard rock" of the psychology faculty, the flintheart of flinthearts. There he sat in his light tan suit, hearing my pain. What created my pivotal moment was this: Sim Southard's suit front was soaked with tears! Compassion was wearing a soggy suit that day. jrbnrnc
Date: 14 Mar 2002
Time: 08:34:59
vs. 11; 39 Martha says, But Lord there is a stench, or he stinks, isn't that what happens to our lives when we die to God? Isn't that remark typcial of Martha? Here is Christ about to preform a great miracle and she is worried about the stink. How many of us look at the miracles that God works and say it stinks, before we hear the whole story? As for being dead four days, it seems to me that there are stories of the dead being brought back to life in the OT. Maybe just maybe the four days is to prove that Jesus is greater than the prophets that raised the dead in the OT.
I also think that the readings for the last three/four weeks have shown us that Jesus fulfilled the promise. The blind see, the lame walked, the good news is preached to the poor. Each of these stories in its own way has shown the fulfillment of those promises. MR in NY
Michelle, I feel what your are going through, our Brittney is 16 years old this year and most of them only live 13 years. She is deaf, has arhrist, has had a cancer operation and my husband gets up twice a night to let her out, yet I also know that when she goes it will break both our hearts. She has been a good friend in this 15 years we have had her.
Date: 14 Mar 2002
Time: 08:50:47
WOW! What a wealth of discussion. It's interesting that as of today no one had posted discussion on Rm 8. Just an observation.
My thanks to REvAmy for wher wonderful insight. Death before Life. And I wonder if some churches don't need to be reminded that there is Life before death, also. Some seem so focused on the dead/dying to come, and on the "life after death, that they forget to live today. On my 19th birthday, my father sent me a card witha poem inscribed on it. the title was "Live Each Day to the Fullest." Seems appropriate here. MAybe that is a twist to the text we need to preach, as well.
Eric, I will try to post a sermon outline I preached on Ez 37 several weeks ago. (As a baptist I don't always follow the lectionary, strictly.) And, there are a few of us baptist who are willing to think "outside the box." We'd all be surprised to know that not everyone buys the "party line" as preached by the head honcho's at Nashville.
Godspeed to all
Steve in NC
Date: 14 Mar 2002
Time: 08:54:40
I guess we all live in a world where in can be difficult to show our tears to the world. I am always amazed by the folks who want to apologize at a funeral for sheding their tears for the loss of a loved one. Is it possible that Jesus was trying to model for us the "freedom" to cry and let the feelings out? What is it about death which will always make us cry - even with the hope of the resurection? revdan
Date: 14 Mar 2002
Time: 09:50:02
I noticed that several folks have talked about breaking up the long passages we have been using into parts or some sort of reader's theater. In case anybody is interested, I have arranged the Palm/Passion Sunday passages from each of the gospels (in their entirety) into reader's theater and music which I have used in place of the sermon on many Palm Sundays. If anyone would like to look at or use any of the three, I would be happy to e mail a copy to you. Contact me at tworevs@aol.com The other lp in CO
Date: 14 Mar 2002
Time: 11:17:49
Just a couple of thoughts: I am new to the keyboard( I wish I have taken typing in High School instead of another year of math) and I foumd it easier to type all in caps, unless the situation called for something else. So I uses CAPS in email, memos etc... until someone shared the proper etiquite with me. I appreciated the information for as it is said, "you don't know what you don't know". I appreciated the graceful manner in which that word of information was shared. I also understand that sometimes we need to overlook how someone says something to hear what they said. Regarding the text, I'm thinking of using a video clip from The Longest Mile, when the character John Coffey, " takes death back from Mr. Jangles, the mouse." The end of the movie is also great because the character played my Tom Hanks and the mouse are still live after more than 100 years. Of course, no mention of eternal life in this context and certianly not new life but an interesting concept in light of Lazarus coming back from the dead. Jesus taking death away from Lazarus. Some mention could be made of Jesus "taking death away" at the cost of his life since John Coffey gave unto the point of exhaustion to take death away.
Date: 14 Mar 2002
Time: 11:46:31
Here is an interesting question that I wish I could claim as my own but I actually found it in another source: "What in our culture needs us to not intervene to keep it propped up so it too can die that it might be unwrapped and loosed back into life with a renewed ability to demonstrate God's glory?" One might substitute different words for "culture" - lives, church, ministry, etc. but the question still sems pertinent. We may struggle with the negative and inexplicable reasons why Jesus waited until Lazarus was dead. But I hear echoes of other scripture - Unless a grain falls into the ground and dies...unless you lose your life... Dale in Canada
Date: 14 Mar 2002
Time: 12:35:08
Phil,
Thank you for your comments. I am usually one of the voices on this website that talks about the literal/figurative approach/divide to these texts. I agree with you that, whether the approach is literal or figurative, we all wind up interpreting the text in the best way we understand. I also suspect that, even though our collective approaches may differ, the conclusions we come to are remarkably similar (won't we all be ending our sermons from this text with a word about hope and grace?)
Is this story a factual account of an actual event from Jesus life? Was John trying to offer a symbolic rendering of Christ's life through a story about the dead being raised? Dare I use the word which upsets so many- Could this story be myth pointing to an inspired Truth while the factual truth might be long buried and lost to us by the passage of time?
I have no problem with any of the above interpretations though I know some of them upset people greatly. For me, I read the story and I search for that spirit of inspiration I believe rests behind each text. Questions of 'fact', 'myth', 'figurative', 'literal', 'liberal, or 'conservative' hold no meaning or importance to me. I am seeking the Truth... though life has been teaching me that 'Truth' is very different for different people and my understanding of the Truth in the Bible changes, grows, deepens and is challenged every day. This Jesus we seek to understand is remarkably simple and profoundly complex.
I do not, with this posting, intend to upset anyone. My hope is that we can all maintain an open mind to the musings, thoughts and speculations of others. Your comments, insights, disagreements and fights are refreshingly human and serve well as asource of inspiration for finding the Truth in the text.
Back to the sermon...Thank you for this refreshing break.
TB
Date: 14 Mar 2002
Time: 14:46:53
To Steve in NC The one comment I'd make about the Romans passage is that they made it too short! As if we did not have such a long Gospel lesson to read, we need to begin eading in Romans 8 at vs. 3 "For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh could not do..." Is not the whole point of both the dry bones and the raising of Lazarus, that we need God's help to have any kind of life, and especially the good full eternal life. This is true whether we are talking about physical life, or the life of a marriage, a church, etc. Many are so dead they stink although they still go through the motions of life. But real life needs the in-breathing of God, the Spirit of God, who comes to us most fully in Jesus Christ. JRW in OH
Date: 14 Mar 2002
Time: 15:39:09
On the question of why Jesus waited until "he stinketh" (KJV) before going to Lazarus's grave, the following from a rabbi is of interest:
The Malbim, a leading 19th century Torah scholar and one of the preeminent Bible commentators of modern times, explains why Jewish law requires burial in the ground, and of the sort that will not delay the natural decomposition of the body. To the extent that man sins, utilizing his heavenly soul in the service of his body and its material needs and desires, the soul identifies and bonds with the body. And upon death, the soul still clings to the body, finding it difficult to depart from its "partner in crime," and is unable to return heavenward to God from whence it came. Only as the body decomposes does the spirit become free to return to its heavenly home. Slowly, the soul goes through a painful separation from the body, ultimately coming to the realization that the body was merely a casing for it to move around in this world, but not its true identity. (From "Rest In Peace Or Rest In Pieces?" By Rabbi David Zauderer, an article in the online magazine "Jewsweek" [no, I'm not making that up!])
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 14 Mar 2002
Time: 15:53:05
While I'm not Jewish and certainly no Hebrew scholar, my understanding of rabbical thought during the time of Jesus was that they really didn't think of the body and spirit as separate entities, rather the the spirit permeated through the body. From my understanding, duelism and dis-embodied spirits is hellenistic and foreign to the Hebrew mind of Jesus day, hence the concept of bodily resurrection vs the more simple idea of continuing life after death.
I may be mis-informed and I'd sure love to see what others think.
humbly, pr.del in Ia
Date: 14 Mar 2002
Time: 16:03:42
Steve would you post the words to "live each day to the fullest?) Nancy-Wi in flowing robe tripping and lol.
Date: 14 Mar 2002
Time: 17:02:43
Thank you for your response, Michelle, and, don't worry, I did receive it in the spirit I believe you intended. My point wasn't that this story could only be taken figuratively but that it's historicity was beside the point, as I saw it, since it seems to have more power figuratively. And I certainly would see its usefulness in the event of a person in a coma.
I recognized as I wrote, that I don't expect to do everything that Jesus did but I know some people try (short of the cross, that is) and in the back kkof my head was the passage, "Greater things than these will you do."
NOW, about Jesus weeping. I am wondering--if I can do so without getting too far into the issue of how human Jesus was-- whether Jesus postponed his arrival filled with the intention of revealing the glory of God but overlooking, meanwhile, the deepness of the human grief this death would naturally bring upon his friends. Could his tears represent the impact of the sisters' pain upon his heart?
pHil
Date: 14 Mar 2002
Time: 17:23:41
Thank you everyone for your thoughts so far. The problem with this passage is that there's too much in it! Sally in GA - what are you going to say about the crematorium?
And Roberta, is that you? (Debra in NYC) DGinNYC
Date: 14 Mar 2002
Time: 18:40:07
John's gospel readings are so large, there is a lot to preach about. I like the "humanity" of Jesus, as he cries. Kind of interesting. Why does he cry when he knows that he is already going to raise him from the dead?
Rev Dwayne Ontario Canada
Date: 14 Mar 2002
Time: 18:40:36
John's gospel readings are so large, there is a lot to preach about. I like the "humanity" of Jesus, as he cries. Kind of interesting. Why does he cry when he knows that he is already going to raise him from the dead?
Rev Dwayne Ontario Canada
Date: 14 Mar 2002
Time: 20:08:56
Rev Dwayne, I think Jesus sheds tears here - described with a greek term used nowhere else in the NT - because he is the resurrection and the life and he will raise Lazarus and yet the people don't seem to get it. His emotion is more angry than sad - the various translations speak of him being disturbed, moved, or deeply troubled, and such - the feeling is frustration and agitation. Anyway this is a passage which seems to touch us according to whereever we are spiritually, emotionally, psychically as individuals. One last thought that occurred to me - I suddenly saw and re-read this passage this way - I am Lazarus. You are Lazarus. The world is Lazarus. NYC after 9/11 is Lazarus. Afghanistan is Lazarus. The mother conivcted of murder is Lazarus. The priests being exposed are Lazarus. It is a heavy season, this spring which is upon us. I need a resurrection and a life more than ever, and I wonder if others feel it too. Thus I need to hear Jesus say - here it is, it is I - I am your resurrection and life. Peace, Jim in CT.
Date: 14 Mar 2002
Time: 20:12:14
I need to print a retraction.
I was just re-reading a post that I made that said, "The argument is mad that he came to die, and thus would have spared a woman the grief and pain of being his widow. But did he really come to die, or did he come to live and give us life? I'm not saying that Jesus didn't sacrifice himself for us--I'm saying that his death was a very brief period in his life, and he lived 33 years on earth (or at least 30) as any other man. I find it highly probable that he married. Of course, that'd be hard to teach, as most of my parishioners wouldn't understand."
There is a typo that changes the meaning of what I said. Instead of "The argument is mad" I meant "The argument is made."
One of our dear listers MADE the argument...I wasn't calling him MAD.
Please overlook the errant typos of a tired typist.
-Greg in VA
Date: 14 Mar 2002
Time: 22:21:57
I would like to start the sermon by asking people to reflect on times when God is absent. Maybe dying or dry times. This may make it easier to relate to the Jews being in exile, or to the early Christians dying with Jesus absent. I think I want to lead to the point that faith in him (or in God) is the key to these passages, and to life. Why? Because life without faith is a life of being a victim and seeing others as victimizers. It is a life of looking to externals for salvation. Faith in God is a life of finding peace, which comes from the responsibility of choosing to say yes to life when the stones are rolled back and our name is called others want to help us take the bondages off. We need and want the experience of having new life after the valley of dry bones or after stinking in the dark and dying places of our lives. We all have them. Brent
Date: 15 Mar 2002
Time: 04:17:32
pr.del in Ia,
I've also heard it taught that the concept of soul or spirit as separate from body is a Greek concept, not Jewish/Judeo-Christian. Hence the stress on bodily resurrection; spirit and body are inseparable.
The movie mentioned several posts earlier starring Tom Hanks is "The Green Mile." I borrowed it from a friend a few months ago. I missed the fact that one of the central characters, Joe Coffey has the initials J.C., as in Jesus Christ. There are some interesting parallels, as the DPS poster pointed out.
Whoever mentioned the movie "At First Sight" last week... I'm in your debt. I watched it last Thursday night and used a good bit of it in Sunday's message. Thank you.
Jeff in JaxFL
Date: 15 Mar 2002
Time: 05:15:22
"Any good ideas on the preaching part of it? old priest in Iowa".....
Maybe you could use the "interpretation" from Peterson's THE MESSAGE. It's great
ALS in CNY
Date: 15 Mar 2002
Time: 08:28:48
Michelle, I would not attempt doing counselling over the phone, but I wonder if you transferred some of your emotions from a dying father to a living house pet. Have you truly let go of your father or should you? My father has been deceased fourteen years. The "Old Man" still visits me in my dreams. I have let go of some of the negative aspects of our relationship, but I hold on to a relationship that manages to continue long after his parting physically. Getting attached to a pet could be a distraction from working through grieve that takes lots of time. TN Mack
Date: 15 Mar 2002
Time: 09:57:43
Am I the only one questioning whether it's even appropriate to ponder WHY Jesus wept? The Bible doesn't say, and it seems that there's too much room to insert our own agendas.
As to resuscitation/resurrection: resurrection implies a new life, whereas resuscitation is simply a restored life, back to the way things were. Occasionally people who've been brought back to life after a serious injury or illness have genuinely spiritually-changed lives, but I'd venture to guess that many simply go back to the attitudes and spiritual depth they'd had previously.
This is a sort of preview of coming attractions (Patch Adams' scene aside) - Christ offers new life, pure and simple. Corny as it sounds, that's what victory is. Maybe what we're struggling with is whether we genuinely want life anew, or whether we want to be the way we were, either in the good ol' days or to be restored to a time when we were once happy or content or healthy.
still working on it in a stressful week. Sally in GA
Date: 15 Mar 2002
Time: 10:21:53
Oh, and my heart is with the sister with the sick dog. They really do become part of your family.
Sally in Ga
(oh, someone asked what I was going to say about the crematorium. There serendipidously appeared a decent article in our denominational newsletter. I'm going to quote it, ahead of the actual substance of the sermon, simply because I know folks will think about it when I read Ezekiel. I'm not going to preach on the crematorium, however, so I'm keeping the things separate. The worst part is they can only get that guy on 339 counts - 1 for every body - of theft by deception. There's no law on the books that even CONSIDERED this crime. They worked quickly, though - it's now a felony).
Date: 15 Mar 2002
Time: 11:16:23
Hi...I am late as usual..but have been pondering this passage all week. Thanks for all the good stuff already posted. I have been doing a series on the people that Jesus encountered..and also have been seeing new things by doing this. I used a sermon title that I got here for the sermon on Niccodemus (Nic at Night) and have continued trying to have a slightly "humorous" title for each encounter. So far I've come up with "Well, It's a Deep Subject" for the Samaritan woman, "The Eyes Have It" for the blind man, and this week is "Martha's Boneyard." Yes, I am tying the passage to the Ezekiel passage..but also putting the emphasis, not on Lazarus, per se, but on Martha, who makes a wonderful confession of faith similar to Peter's "You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God" passage.
To me, in all of these encounters, Jesus is merely "using" a miracle to try to get across his point - the miracles almost seem incidental - or merely examples of the deeper truth being taught. And although everyone wants to focus on Lazarus...I think the lesson here is for Martha....if you believe..then you do not have to fear!!! or doubt!!! Live like a resurrection person if you claim that is what you are!! Death is not the enemy....being caught up and controlled by it or doubting spiritual life without end...is the greater enemy.
Martha saw a boneyard - and Jesus wanted her to see the Resurrection and the Life and live accordingly.
Thanks by the way to Sally in GA for next weeks' sermon title - I will be preaching on Jesus' encounter with Peter and Peter's denial..and Jesus' telling him about the rooster crowing three times...
The sermon title? "For Pete's Sake" - as we all deny Jesus over and over again, and need to know that like Peter, we too can be restored.
Blessings...
Jude in Wash
Date: 15 Mar 2002
Time: 11:33:56
Too late for a posting probably, but I'll try.
Jesus was wrong. He told the disciples that Laz's illness would not mean death. Or that Jesus did not filled led to return at that time. I assume he had more work, preaching and healing, where he was.
Later he knows already that Laz has died and tells his disciples so. They go with him, so that they can die also. (also like Laz or like Jesus?)
Jesus meets with Martha who believes the right things. Really believes. Mary is called. She also believes but can't stop crying. The "knowledge" of some future resurrection does not take away the fear, pain, and grief of losing someone close.
Supposed Jesus really really did love this man. He knows the truth too. The sadness still overcomes him. "Not on my watch!" perhaps. Maybe just the futility of this life, ending in nothingness. Maybe this is to help him get to the last step of his ministry. "The Son of Man will die" he told the disciples 3 times already. Jesus knows (99%) that this he is the Son of Man, but with Laz he really feels it.
Something has to be done to end this meaninglessness. Death is extinction. All for nothing. Dead. God Hates Death!
Jesus feels this same anger, frustration -- "do not go gently into that good night! Rage! Rage!" (who's poem? probable misquoted)
Jesus raises Laz from the tomb. He will die again. But at the same time this event really set the authorities knowing Jesus has to be elliminated. Jesus knows that nothing he can do in his life will end this meaninglessness. One hope is that of Isaiah, to be the suffering servant (even if he too is not absolutely sure that He is).
Please. Death is real and it is terrible. I've been watching a man dying for almost three weeks. They won't turn off the machines, he is just a shell! Eyes staring up, arms and legs that won't move. Tubes and more tubes pumping.
That is why Christ went to the cross. Because God Hates death.
JLM in Detroit
Date: 15 Mar 2002
Time: 12:03:27
My sermon ... last in the "Elemental Christianity" series ... is done.
For those who'd like to see it... go to
http://www.stfrancis-ks.org/subpages/asermons/lent-5-a-rcl-2002.htm
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 15 Mar 2002
Time: 14:46:59
JLM in Detroit
I believe quotation is from Dylan Thomas text can be found here http://www.pressroom.com/~tae/gentle.htm wd in nc
Date: 15 Mar 2002
Time: 16:21:19
Has anyone ever heard the theory that perhaps Lazurus may be the author of the Gospel of John? Just curious.
Jude, great ideas, I wish you posted earlier!!!
Pr. del in IA
Date: 15 Mar 2002
Time: 18:20:06
Interesting discussions going on this week. I seem to be working from a different perspective than most, though. Taking my title from the implication of verse 36 by "the Jews" that Jesus obviously loved Laz, my working title is "Strange Love". It seems to me that the question of why Jesus waited so long to go to Bethany is tinged with a sense of this being a strange way to show love to friends. Yet, this is but another way for God's strange and wonderful love for humankind to be revealed in Christ Jesus. All of the Lenten readings from John have in common this theme of revelation -- that is the primary focus of John's Gospel. StudentPastor in KS
Date: 16 Mar 2002
Time: 07:45:51
Dear All,
Thanks for the wonderful care you've shown for the difficulty of watching a beloved pet suffer an "illness unto death."
TN Mack, thank you, but what I meant what that I have let go of the grief of my dad's suffering. It was more of a relief when his "shell" died, because then the good things could shine through without causing the pain that I knew his body was alive but we could no longer share those good things.
Sally in GA, YES! I am focusing on the "why" Jesus wept. Thank you for the warning about reading too much into it. But it had occurred to me that his weeping can have many meanings, and that we can't be sure of any of them. The only interpretation we are given is what the Jews thought his tears meant, "See how he loved him."
Peace and Blessings to all. Thanks for all your postings, but I have "miles an miles to go before I sleep!"
Michelle
Date: 16 Mar 2002
Time: 07:47:24
Oops! That was supposed to be "miles and miles..."
Date: 16 Mar 2002
Time: 12:52:40
Better late than never... What about the "Flip Side of Death?" Consider Laz's story and life now! What a testamoney. One that just won't go away, even with death. One who has gone to meet God, and returns with a knowledge that blows the common folk away. Why he might just be another "Mesiah" according to the Pharrisees. Perhaps that is why he becomes a threat along with Jesus.
Why did everyone think in terms of death, when Jesus has taught life all this time. Laz isn't going to die, because he believes in Jesus. When we truly believe we too have a promise of eternal life, a joy of light in our lives. and until we surrender these mortal bodies, we must live in light and darkness with its death and birth, and promisses not yet come to pass. In our baptism we are a lot like Laz. In our lives we need to strive to be more like Jesus. Anybody ever think that we only use 20% of our brain capacity when we die? What about the other 80%? Could this be information and knowledge God gives to us in faith and belief when we accept our life in his? Why can't we raise the dead? or heal the blind? or cure the sick? Perhaps we really in our hearts don't fully believe. The council of churches took a survey (don't have dates right here) and asked how many clergy really believe there is a God and a life hereafter..... Over 50% were not sure if there is a God. Why are we seemingly not bringing life to some of our churches today? Could it be we have jobs instead of callings? Could it be we don't fully believe in God, Jesus and the ressurrection? Could it be that we aren't sure if Jesus is coming back?
Look at the witness of Laz. He has been there and done that. If you won't believe Jesus, bel;ieve those he has healed, raised from the bindings of life and living.
D.L. Moody mentioned once that "you can't share what you don't have." We can't preach about things we really haven't experienced. We can only proclaim salvation until we are truly saved. Then can we teach, preach and baptise the world in the name of one whoom has not touched us some way? Food for thought Southern Style. DC in La.
Date: 16 Mar 2002
Time: 13:43:22
To all my new mentors at this site, many thanks for your insights. I have just started using the Lectionary and all of your input has helped me to see how it can work together.
RevAmy, I believe you and I are in the same area. My church is located in Walker County and my wife is a school teacher there. Emotions about the crematory incident are running high. Wehn I first heard of it, my thoughts were drawn to the valley of the dry bones. The question now is whether or not these people, the victims, the members of the community, the family of the accused (which can include innocents in spite of some of the emotional viewpoints), can they live again or will they remain emotional, and even spiritual, dry bones.
I used the story of the death of Lazarus for a funeral about a year ago and focused on the fact that Jesus wept. I may have seen Martha and Mary a little differently that has been discussed before. Remember, Martha is the practical one in another story, working in the kitchen, making sure that all of the preparations were just so. Mary was the one who went with her heart, sitting at Jesus' feet as he taught. Martha was waiting for Jesus to arrive because she knew He would come. Martha confronted Jesus with the the matter of fact statement that if He had been there, her brother wouldn't have died but that God would grant whatever Jesus ask, even at this point. No tears, no pleadings, just the facts. That's how Jesus responded to her. She knew what could happen if Jesus willed it to be. He understood her faith and she accepted His Lordship. Mary, on the other hand, was blinded by her pain. She used the same words as Marth ... to a point. She believed that Jesus had failed her brother and saw no hope. That didn't mean that she didn't love or trust Jesus less, only that she was stuck in her despair. Jesus knew the depth of her pain and of her sister's pain. If He indeed loved them, why shouldn't He cry as a sharing of their pain even in the face of the miracle that He was about to perform.
Well, that's enough for a first post. I hope it's not to late to be of use to someone. I've been involved in a Easter play this weekend and it has had me to busy to write earlier.
Mike in Soddy Daisy, TN
Date: 16 Mar 2002
Time: 16:12:59
“She is here again,” the voice hissed quietly into the ear of a trusted friend. “She is always here,” replied the second voice, “wearing her too short skirts and that low cut blouse. And high heels, she never forgets those high heels, sashaying up and down the aisles like she owns the place.” “Her mother must be on drugs or something,” said voice one. “ I certainly wouldn’t let my daughter out like that. And to church, well you would think that someone would show a bit more decency.” “Yes, Lord, a bit of decency,” voice two echoed. “Yes, Lord.”
Of course, there were other words that some folks used to describe her. Perhaps in this place the words weren’t spoken aloud, perhaps here they were said under one’s breath, with a roll of the eyes and a shake of the head. She was trouble, no doubt about it. Or perhaps, perhaps if one was prone to generosity, given to a more compassionate stance, if one was one of us, one of those more gentle souls, one might simply whisper that she was troubled, but whisper we would.
Cindy was fourteen when she began coming to the little church in the pine trees, the one with the constantly leaking roof and the broken tile floors, the little church that sported a small puddle right up by the piano after every rain. She was one of the rather large group of broken children, these throw-away kids whose lives were filled with chaos and poverty and anger and pain. She was one of this rather wild herd who each and every Sunday would make their way to this place of worship, this place of stories.
She was the poster child of their chaos. As a ninth grader, it was a good bet that with the three fights which each time earned Cindy a more lengthy suspension from school, with the skipping of numerous classes and the absolute lack of effort to perform even the minimum level of school work, that at the end of the year, she would still be in the ninth grade. All of this provided more than enough fodder required to garner the whispers and glances, but worse, she smoked. At fourteen she smoked like a chimney. On each Sunday morning Cindy would join the other kids gathered on the front porch, just beside the doors entering the sanctuary. She would stand there, laughing and joking in her rather loud voice, waving her burning cigarettes around like a conductor's wand, guaranteed to solicit an even greater response in the chorus of complaints.
On one particular day, when Cindy had been asked to come early so that she might help care for some of the younger children, the pastor was called by the convenience store that was located next door to the church. It seemed Cindy had been caught stealing cigarettes. It was always so with Cindy, always the activity of a adolescent who did not have the coping skills, did not possess the familial support, and did not have the maturity to live out of her pain in any way that did not bring more of the same. She was lost in the chaos. Her beaten soul, her battered spirit, was more dead than alive. The darkness in her life would often close about her and there in the gloom of the night, she would place her head into her pillow, and in muffled sobs, she would weep, she would weep not even understanding why she cried. She would weep in a world that was more shadow than light. In the tomb which surrounded her world, she would weep in her lostness.
But some didn’t turn away. Like Thomas, some journeyed to that tomb, even though it may have been a place to fear, even though they placed themselves at risk in the going, even though their effort appeared to have little chance of bringing light into that place of shadow. A young pastor never gave up, never turned her back. She went forward even in the midst of the voices that rose against her. She journeyed onward as the anger and the noise of discontent reached a crescendo. She continued to hope despite the evidence, despite the fact that Cindy seemed beyond her hope, beyond her tears, beyond even the hand of God.
And yet, little by little, the stone began to role away. Little by little, light began to pour into the corners of that crypt. Cindy went on a youth mission trip with this small wild herd, and in each place when a prayer was offered, Cindy’s voice would rise up, at first, slightly more than a whisper, but growing with sureness and life in each offering. The hurts and the horrors that wrapped around her young life began to be peeled away. The bindings that imprisoned her heart, fell about her in a jumbled mass of discarded violations as she painted the window seals on the home of a poor elderly woman, as she painted them in 100 degree heat. And life sprang forth as she put her arms around another young woman whose father had recently died, as Cindy put her arms around her and wept, mixing her tears with the tears of the suffering girl.
“Unwrap him and let him go,” the Voice proclaims. Some never heard it. For some reason, they simply seemed unable or unwilling to find the miracle. Yet, some did. Some heard. “Unwrap him and let him go.” So that she might live. So that we all might live.
Date: 16 Mar 2002
Time: 16:33:11
Oooops. ... for the above ...
Shalom my friends,
Nail-Bender in NC
Date: 16 Mar 2002
Time: 17:20:59
Great story Nail-Bender. Thanks! Brent
Date: 16 Mar 2002
Time: 19:06:29
Some thematic progression ideas over the past few weeks:
March 3rd - John 4:5-42 - Jesus at the well with the Samaritan woman, with the disciples, with the Samaritan town's people: Theme: "What's God been doing in your life?"
March 10th - John 9:1-41 - Jesus and the blind man: Theme: "How is God using you so that the works of God can be displayed in your life?"
March 17th - John 11:1-45 - Jesus and Lazarus: Theme: "What acts of God have you SEEN in the lives of others?"
Verse 45 says: "Many ... had seen what Jesus did, believed in him." Think about that for a second. Not everyone who saw, believed -- but many did. Within our own congregations, do all who see, then believe? No, but some do, perhaps even many do. Some believe ... some don't believe ... some are in the middle wondering what to believe. Will our people believe and follow, or simply observe and go home without any lasting change?
Ole Hallesby, in his 1931 book entitled "Prayer" says: "Prayer is given and ordained for teh purpose of glorifying God. Prayer is the appointed way of giving Jesus an opportunity to exercise His supernatural powers of salvation. And in so doing He desires to make use of us. We should through prayer give Jesus the opportunity of gaining access to our souls, our bodies, our homes, our neighborhoods, our countries, to the whole world, to the fellowship of believers and to the unsaved."
A woman in my congregation was in a car accident yesterday where she totalled her car and hung upside-down for about 15 minutes until rescue workers could free her. She broke her sternum and has a multitude of other less serious injuries, not to mention pain. When I visited her yesterday in hospital, I annointed her and prayed for her healing ... that God would work in an excellerated way that her healing would bring glory to God. Tonight, I spoke with her briefly on the phone. Her pain is gone, her sternum feels fine, she is able to get out of bed on her own and tend to her needs. Her one prayer request tonight was that God would take care of others as God has taken care of her.
Soli Deo Gloria! --- To God Alone Be the Glory!
Rev. Karl in Utah
Date: 16 Mar 2002
Time: 20:25:10
"This story does not simply say there is life after death. It says a soul can re enter a body even one that has been dead and decaying. " NO- it says that GOD can bring abody back to life. It doesn't say anything about what is "normal" or "possible"- Joe in NC
Date: 8/12/2004
Time: 3:56:38 PM
what a joy... what a comfort
Deke
Date: 10/28/2004
Time: 6:41:12 PM
CHAPTER IX Concerning Infernal Necromancy
"The magician having described the circle, and holding a magic wand in his right hand, while his companion or assistant beareth a consecrated torch, he turns himself to all the four winds, and, touching
p. 326
the dead body three times with the magical wand, repeats as follows:--By the virtue of the Holy Resurrection, and the torments of the damned, I conjure and exorcise thee, Spirit of N. deceased, to answer my liege demands, being obedient unto these sacred ceremonies, on pain of everlasting torment and distress. . . . BERALD, BEROALD, BALBIN, GAB, GABOR, AGABA. Arise, arise, I charge and command thee. "
The Way it must have been - Necralitor