"To be born again, born from above, a second birth."
Saint Basil of Nyssa states that we must become our own parents, giving birth to ourselves. It seems to me that a new birth is given as faith is received - a complete turning to the One who gives life. Nicodemus thought that his parents (his mom) was responsible for his birth not God!
tom in ga
I can't help but think that our 'fundamentalist' brothers and sisters over emphasize these passages while we mainliners tend to diminish or even ignore them.
My theology continues to include the idea that baptism, though obviously important, is not the act that describes us as being 'born again'. It's something much more than that although I struggle with how to describe it.
I believe that we all must be born again. That it has something to do with recognizing our lost condition and our need for Christ. That it is not, however, about head knowledge alone but includes the heart.
How would the Church be seen today, how much more effective, how much more persuasive, if we in the mainline emphasized being born again more, emphasized Jesus own words, underscoring the word 'must', in addition to loving our neigbor and walking humbly with God?
How would the Church be seen today, how much more effective, how much more persuasive, if our 'fundamentalist' friends would, in addition to emphasizing new birth, would emphasize loving your neighbor (especially those unlike ourselves) and walking humbly with God?
I wonder...
I dream...
Rick in Va
Rick Think of young persons learning the piano. They play notes. The notes are absolutely and precisely correct. But no one sings along, no one taps their toes. Then, instead of playing notes, they play music. Now people sing along, and tap their toes. The musician has got it all together. This may be one useful way to think about "second birth," when we move from hearing about, to hearing directly. Then what we have known second-hand becomes real. Just a thought R.J. in ND
Rick and RJ--thank you both... the piano illustration is very vivid--showing the COMPLETENESS that is necessary, and how much more beautiful....begins an intersting train of thought!
Janetin NY
I am thinkabout the overall flow of the passage. We are "born again" which means we start over - a new relationship - a new life. How does this happen? Because God loved us all so much - whosoever (- that means anyone and everyone - no exceptions) believes in Jesus has eternal life. The purpose of Jesus was not condemnation, not judgement, not rejection, but love, acceptance, salvation. God loves - God sends Jesus - Jesus comes to save not condemn. How do we respond? We believe and we accept the gift God offers. Any other ideas on the flow of the passage? NE, Sydney, Australia
I am thinking about the overall flow of the passage. We are "born again" which means we start over - a new relationship - a new life. How does this happen? Because God loved us all so much - whosoever (- that means anyone and everyone - no exceptions) believes in Jesus has eternal life. The purpose of Jesus was not condemnation, not judgement, not rejection, but love, acceptance, salvation. God loves - God sends Jesus - Jesus comes to save not condemn. How do we respond? We believe and we accept the gift God offers. Any other ideas on the flow of the passage? NE, Sydney, Australia
Notice the times today you respond in the flesh. Notice the times you respond in the Spirit. That's where I start to understand the difference and get excited about God's faithfulness drawing us beyond the flesh. We have to keep saying, OK, God, I know how I'm responding. Now tell me how you are responding to this situation. Anne in Providence6 k
A thought- Nicodemus reminds me of us: trained, educated, aware of the religious foundations, but unable to comprehend the "sense" of what Jesus says. How do we take seriously both the simplicity and the complexity of Jesus' message in a way that will resonate to lives trained to see things differently? The piano picture is a great start. Just a beginning of an idea. GFinSC
Thanks to this "Nick at Night" scripture, we recognize that universal salvation(everyone is automatically saved when they die) is not a reality. I understand that some seminaries are teaching this. Salvation is for those who "believe" in Jesus Christ. Thanks for the piano illustration! signed, one who can only play a few notes.
Help me with the Greek. In english "you must be" can be future tense or present tense. is that true of the original? OK Greek we don't have the text in Aramaic. could it be that Jesus is saying Nicodemas, since you see something your brothers in the Sanhedrin don't see, pleasue understamd that it means there is a new spirit alive in you? (Now what are you going to do about living a new life?) Manzel
One of my colleagues pointed out that "born again" is Nicodemus' words. Jesus says, "Born from above" and "born of water and Spirit." Is this tiny difference important? It seems to me that it affects the flow of the story. revd
I'm adding this contribution partially because it's early in the week and I rarely get to this page before Friday. I am often a desperate preacher, for sure. To me, the image of being born again, or "born anew" or whatever, is a beautiful image of God's grace. It is certainly essential that we be open to God's grace. If we are close to God's grace, then we are closed to God and sufficient unto ourselves - thinking we don't need God at all.
The passage is not a command, a warning or a plumline - it is an illustration. I would paraphrase it: "When you are open to God's love and grace it will make you a new person, so different everything will seem." Comments...
DN in AZ
Why would we be afraid to see this passage as a warning? When we warn our children, is it not loving to do so? Why DN in AZ, would you be so confident that this is not a warning? I certainly allow for the notion that this is a loving warning from God through His Son, that I must be born again so that I may never perish but have eternal life.
This is love... This will preach...
Rick in Va
HW
Perhaps you are being defensive, but to my mind, that is ok. Perhaps other posters who've wondered at the appropriateness of your plans for Sunday were also being defensive, and that is ok. You probably can guess what my personal reaction was to your plans. But I found myself celebrating your gift of ministry, and respecting the call of God on your life, and the direction that God has told you to take your service. There is a verse from Matthew that has meant much to me since childhood., "seek ye first the kingdom of God, and God's righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you. (Matthew 6:33). This verse has always assured me that God would supply all our needs, even the emotional ones. Often when we lose a love, or loved one, our anger makes us selfish, and self-centered.. But that is ok, because on the other side of our anger, and sadness comes understanding. In one of David Augsburger's books, either "Caring enough to Confront." or Caring enough to forgive," He suggest that marriages can't go on, until the dead part of the relationship one is ended. He seems to suggesting that all relationships go through times of divorce, in order to begin the new relationship, even as the marriage stays intact. So, do your valentine's marriage service HW. I'm struck by the fact that in both the Exodus passage, and this one, the incidents happen on the mountains. I think there is significance here. It has more to do with God's presence than height, (and even ascending and descending.) It is a place of nurture, and a place where God can help us move beyond our present spiritual state to the next. To me, the mountains represent "the shiny face of God (my sermon title)
Shalom
Pasthersyl
rev'n in PA, I like your theme of winter for Lent. Lent is one of my favorite seasons of the church calendar because of the "wilderness" experience. There is a lot of introversion in me. And being in the "winter " of my years, if I was a member of your congregation, I would be grateful for how God has lead you. I like the idea of going with a theme for these 40 days. Because of my congregations enjoyment of hymns, I have chosen the theme "When in our Music God is glorified"(UMH#68). I will be examining the 5 Psalm passages in Lent, to see how God will speak to us individually and collectively as a congregation. I hoping some more of you will look at the Psalm passages, so I can dialogue. Title for this week is "When in our Music God forgives us" It will be interesting to me how I will be led to connect Jesus successful bout with the devil, and him not "yielding to temptation" with the psalm passage where the worshiper is led not to hide is iniquity. I have just begun my study
Shalom
Pasthersyl
February 22, 1999 (4:30PM)
This is the second in a series of sermons in Lent dealing with music in worship. The title in the series is "When in our Music God is glorified" I will be using the Psalms in my sermons. Inviting the congregation to read psalms, and/or the hymnal in preparation for each week. Last week' using the title, "When in Our Music God Forgives Us, " for Psalms 32, we talked about the deep sense of comfort that comes from realizing God's forgiving spirit that the psalmist encountered. I closed the sermon with the story of Rev. John Newton, his ministry and the writing of "Amazing Grace." This Sunday, I will be looking at Psalm 121: "When in our Music, God is known, taken from the second part of verse 1, "where does my help comes?" Knowing the one who made heaven and earith, who is always present. God watches over the people, no harm comes. It is suggested that a worshipper, would be leaving Jerusalem, heading home after sacrificing to God, and would see the mountains and hills all around and declare the essence of faith. The hymns that are familiar to us. I'm thinking of "Through it all", "Precious Lord take my hand", etc. The anthem which I'm sure the choir will sing, (I sing with them, and because of my love for music, this helps in the service and the delivery of the sermon), that anthem will be, "He watching over Israel, Slumbers not nor sleeps," from the oratorio, Elijah. I recognize that this statement by the psalmist is a declaration of the difference between the other gods and Yahweh. My recent faith journey has made me reluctant to do comparisons with other beliefs. However, I do recognize God as the one who is always available. It is hard to develop Psalm sermon material on this site, because all of us choose to exegete (or eisegete) the Gospel, hardly any comments are made concerning the Psalms. Shalom
Pasthersyl Nicodemus has come to Jesus at nightime. He didn't want others to see him. The answers Jesus give seem to come from another place. Nicodemus recognizes Jesus as a Rabbi. He knows that Jesus is God sent. Jesus seems to be saying, that you can not understand, God's "Cyberspace", unless you were born from God's "Cyberspace"
This is new, and I thank For his insight, but it is Nicodemus who refers to a second birth, inferring that he is too old to start over(sounds familiar) I also think he has a handle on the truth. Rebirth is like being born again in a motherly way. God's grace sometimes is like a womb. It is amazing how God guides the birth process. We do cause God labor pains as God waits for us to be born. When I was first born, my mother often laughed at how I didn't cry. She said the doctor spanked me, and spanked me. But I refused to cry. Finally I made a small wimper, and those attending her knew I was alive. I was laid on a closed sewing machine, and my Dad's work light was placed over me, so I would stay warm. I was a little over 5 Ibs . However, my mother then ran into complications. They informed my father that since this was a home birth and they had no emergency equipment, that mother would die. I lay alone on the sewing machine while they cared for my mother. I think now God decided to let my mother have the opportunity to raise her daughter. She had lost her mother at an early age, and wanted so much to have this time with her daughter. She lived without the emergency equipment. At the age of twelve, a week before Palm Sunday, my mother walked down the aisle of church with my brother who accepted Christ. I was so-o-o angry that I didn't know this was going to happen. I decided that I'd show Ma, by accepting Christ myself the next Sunday on Palm Sunday. That defiant act became a humbling experience, because I not only accepted Christ, joined the church, but was called into ministry. It was as if God was holding me like the physician, and spanking, and spanking and spanking me until I made a cry. As I reflected on Nicodemus question, I realize that this is the week of my 61st birthday, and Palm Sunday will be my 49th birth into Christ' service(I haven't always been faithful). Yes, I affirm that one has to be born into God's Cyberspace. This reflection on John 3, is helpful for my sermon on the Psalm passage.
Shalom
Pasthersyl
P.S. As some of you might remember, Mom stayed around until November of last year, while I was 60 years old. I am grateful for God's grace.
forgive me posters, but for some reason, some old things that I had contributed got pasted in with my new contribution. Please accept my apologies. Maybe it is a way of God keeping me humble.
Yours in Christ
Pasthersyl
I am fascinated by the fact that Nicodemus comes to Jesus "by night." Apparently he does not want his friends to know that he comes to Jesus. Perhaps he is embarassed by what some of the "would be" followers of Jesus have communicated as "the truth" to the community. Perhaps he just doesn't want to be known as a "religious zealot." Whatever the reason he comes trying to disguise his interest.
I find a whole world out there that considers religion irrelevant to their lives. Many of these people are afraid to express interest in this thing called "faith" in part because their world view does not square with the world view of those in biblical times. Many are frankly embarrassed by the right wing fundamentalist claims as made by Jerry Falwell, etc., or by those who proclaim the sanctity of life on the one hand while bombing women service clinics on the other....all in the name of Christianity. Many today are afraid to come out of the dark and participate openly in Christianity.They choose instead to stay as far away from organized Christianity as possible while maintaining a kind of religious mask. How often have we heard, "Oh, I am really quite religious, I just don't go to church".
Not only individuals but the Christian Church needs desperately a new birth from above......to be born of both water and the spirit.
Rev. Bob
Catching up from last week: thank you, Darlene, for your post. I quoted from the second half in my sermon as an illustration of personal wilderness experience. Re born from above/born again: Raymond Brown writes in his Anchor Bible commentary on John that the Gk word used by Jesus, "anothen," can mean either "from above" or "again," and that Jesus seems to be using it in the first sense, whereas Nicodemus understands it in the second sense. Does Nicodemus misunderstand Jesus' birth metaphor? Is "born from above" a kind of circumlocution for "born of God"? Cf. I John 4:7: "whoever loves is born of God and knows God." Maybe Jesus is calling us to be "born-of-God" believers instead of "born-again" believers. Doug in Riverside
Pastersyl,
Happy Birthday! I'm glad you're posting regularly again.
Rev Bob,
I couldn't agree with you more. My Father, a very moral person, stays away from organized religion, thanks in large part to the media's focus on the gaffes of popular televangelists (Falwell's attention to children's TV cartoons is a cartoon in itself, one that is far from funny).
Sunday, our Bishop, David Bane, visited our little parish. He was spell-binding as he told us of how Christ had changed his life. He is also shaking things up here in Virginia as he is calling for a hiatus from voting on those things that so divide the church (during conventions and councils) and instead wants us to focus on resting in God and telling others about how God is working in our lives.
I think this can lead to those recognizing their need for Christ and being more open to that new birth that leads to life.
We need to be genuine, we need to teach others how to recognize God's hand on our lives, and we need to boldly tell others about that which we've recognized.
Rick in Va
Remember "faith" for John is "sight" - through water and the Holy Spirit we have been given a new vision - a new way of perceiving the world in which we live.
tom in ga
Thanks Rick for your comments about my "confident" opinion about the meaning of "born again". I feel mostly "evangelical" and even a bit charismatic in both my core beliefs and in my worship, yet I have a strong reaction against using the fear of hell as a reason to seek God's forgiveness and loving Grace. I'm not denying the reality that people will be seperated from God eternally as a result of their choice to reject Jesus' love. Yes, Jesus gave warnings... Yes, we are told to "flee from the wrath to come"... Yet, in this passage, I believe that Jesus wasn't warning, He was inspiring. How about another attempt at a paraphrase: "Born again is what happens to you when you give up the old and put on the newness of God's grace."
DN in AZ
Help me, please! This was the first year that I offered ashes for our (UM) ash Wed. service. It took me hours to burn a few palms. There must be an easier way of doing this. I tried to post this question on our discussion site several times, but it disconnects me from internet. Feel free to answer there though. I can read the postings, I just can't post. I apologize for using this valuable scripture site. Thank you! LS
A few opening thoughts to indulge myself on my birthday..."born again" may be translated, according to many commentators, and as in our DPS text, as "born from above." A call to transcendence. As such, it is certainly a lofty and worthy goal for us. But by definition, one we will never fully reach in this life, except for those rare "aha!" moments now and then, when the veil falls away and we gape in awe, wordless, at peace, at one, perceiving and knowing, and knowing too we can never rightly speak of the such things...even if we could find words.
But the veil always returns, quickly, leaving us longing for the next rebirth experience. Sometimes we can bring ourselves to one through contemplation, meditation, discipline...but more often than not they are the unexpected gift, so tenuous, so wrapped up in the tedium or pain or anxiety of life, we miss them. The Spirit is a velvet hammer against the hard shell of our hearts, opinions, and realities.
Born from above, of the Spirit...YES! Let me be, O God, again...and again...and again........
Barry in OH
It is noteworthy to me that when Nicodemus approaches Jesus and says, "Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do apart from the presence of God," Jesus answers, "Very truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above..." How Jesus does what he does catches Nicodemus' curiosity. But Jesus' answer has to do with seeing. That seeing precedes doing rings true to me. Probably that is why moralizing seldom is effective. It has been my experience that as I am able more and more to "see" the kingdom of God, I am able more and more to "move" there (not that I am making extravagant claims for myself...mostly I see "as in a mirror darkly"). While it is true that we walk by faith and not by sight, the faith given to us removes the scales from our eyes so that we may begin to see truly...a seeing beyond sight, a seeing beyond the appearances of things.
TAS in Chautauqua County, NY
It is noteworthy to me that when Nicodemus approaches Jesus and says, "Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do apart from the presence of God," Jesus answers, "Very truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above..." How Jesus does what he does catches Nicodemus' curiosity. But Jesus' answer has to do with seeing. That seeing precedes doing rings true to me. Probably that is why moralizing seldom is effective. It has been my experience that as I am able more and more to "see" the kingdom of God, I am able more and more to "move" there (not that I am making extravagant claims for myself...mostly I see "as in a mirror darkly"). While it is true that we walk by faith and not by sight, the faith given to us removes the scales from our eyes so that we may begin to see truly...a seeing beyond sight, a seeing beyond the appearances of things.
TAS in Chautauqua County, NY
I'm preaching this text at the 103rd Annual Meeting of the Episcopal Church Women in our diocese this Saturday -- a "good gig" which I am looking forward to. I'm struck by the connection between the lives of many of these faithful women (mostly "of a certain age") and Nicodemus: leaders in their church for a generation or more -- respected, many of them very learned and well versed in the lore of the church and their love of the Lord. And yet they're not done learning yet. Like Nicodemus, they're willing to venture out "into the dark" looking for what new thing God is doing now. Life long learners they're called in the education biz: and Nicodemus is their patron saint. Being "born again" doesn't mean "once and for all" -- I guess the theme of the sermon is "Don't Give Up Epiphanies for Lent." Rev Bob: Thank you for that image of Christians "coming out" -- I know someone who said it was easier to come out as a gay man than it was as a Christian -- he was so loath to be identified with what so much of the culture understands as "Christian Values." Blessings, ya'll. Susan in SanPedro
Oops. I spoke of what I knew. I said Jesus' words were not "born again." But then I looked a little farther, and I found that several versions do have Jesus saying "born again", and then I realized that I was Nicodemus. Hmmm. revd
Dear Palm burner,
Were they dry, held over from last year's palms used on Palm Sunday? If so, it has been my experience that they burn very quickly, very completely, to a dark, course ash. I usually use a small charcoal-type cooker. Putting a tin pan under the grate, I light the palms and watch them take off and burn up in a matter of seconds. No need to use other fuel, paper, etc. --LC
To "One who can only play a few notes" :
What's wrong with universal salvation (at least as a possibility)? If "belief" is required for salvation, it becomes just another form of "works righteousness." And whose belief? Mine? Yours? Fundamentalist? Liberal? Pentecostal? Orthodox? Christian? Jew? Other? Is eternal life a "reward"? Or a promise? Is this life important only for earning brownie points in the next? (points earned only if you follow certain rules, which fortuitously happen to be "our" rules?).
This text provides a good platform for us to distinguish between "belief" and "faith." I don't care much what people believe; but I do care about their faith...which is to say, how they live, especially in response to unfathomable grace. Seems a lot of extremely pious folks "believed" the "right" things in Jesus' time (including perhaps Nicodemus)...and these were the ones with a big hand in his death.
Barry in OH
I agree that Jesus is speaking of a necessary spiritual birth -- but how does that birth come about? Not by knowledge and understanding and adherance to law or religion, but only by grace. It's not something one can attain to...as Nick seems to have wanted. How many of us had anything to do with our physical births? As we have heard some disgruntled youth say, "I didn't ask to be born." No, our conception and birth were totally out of our hands. Does the analogy carry over to one's spiritual birth? We sure want to take a lot of credit for our being Christians. So did Nick. So do I. WHEN I FOUND GOD. No, God found me. I was born. Didn't have a clue as to what was going on or why. I'm just learning as I grow. That's grace in it's purest form, I think. RevKK
It seems to me that Nick's first words to Jesus could be paraphrased, "Look, I've got you pegged. You're one of those great teachers God sends along every generation or so." Jesus response is to tell Nicodemus that he needs to come to a point where all the pegs he usually hangs things on dissapear: the limits of his imagination keep him from seeing the Kingdom.
An aside to the palm burner: I've heard that you should put the palms in the oven and bake them at very low heat until they are charred and crumbly. Then put them in the blender or food processor to pulverize them. A good friend of mine had a palm crisis on her first Ash Wednesday as a Pastor. She waited until just before the evening service to try to burn the palms and discovered, just as you did, that this doesn't really work. With the service set to begin in fifteen minutes she was in a real panic with not a lot of options. In desperation, she took toner from the copier and used that. Worked great, though the marks on parishoners foreheads lasted for quite a while into Lent.
KCS Portland
KCS Portland,
I laughed out loud at your friend's use of toner as ashes. That had to have been fun to watch. A Holy Spirit moment if I've ever come across one.
RevKK,
I could be wrong (imagine that!) but I do believe we play a part in being 'born again'. It's the part of submission. Many reject God's grace. I believe that repentance or the awareness of our sinful condition and the desire to be cleaned from it falls squarely on our shoulders.
I see God's grace as a check (gift) that I can either cash (accept) or tear up (reject). Thank God that He continues to pour His grace upon me or I would have never experienced re-birth.
And speaking of re-birth, I can honestly say that I have experienced it. It was something that happened (is happening) that was profound and much more than spiritual. My entire outlook on life has changed (is changing).
Unlike my Baptist friends, I can't tell you what hour and minute. I can narrow it down to a season (Winter of '90, give or take a month or two). And by the way, my spiritual re-birth continues to take place. That's where the analogy to childbirth breaks down (not only for the mother, but for the child... can you imagine it... for so long... ouch!).
Rick in Va
Barry, You bring up an interesting point. It is not "how one lives" that saves them, even if that is what you are interested in. No religion saves us, nor, do churches. Nor do pastors. Salvation comes only through Jesus Christ. We point to Him. Hopefully, our churches point to Him. Our actions, life styles, point to Him. For God so loved the world, that He sent His only begotton Son, that whoever believes in Him........ Do you call this scripture a lie? Am I taking it out of context? If salvation is universal, then why did Jesus die on the cross? No need, everyone would have been saved anyway. Thank you to all of the responses about the ashes! Yes, they were last year's palms from Palm Sunday. No they did not burn quickly, quite the opposite. Loved the toner idea! LS
Dear friends:
I burned a few palms from last year on the gas grill in my back yard, then ground them up with a mortar and pestle. Then the people who asked for ashes didn't show up anyway. I did find out that palm ashes are much better than fireplace ashes. I never thought of the toner idea.
Anyway, I am also intrigued by Nicodemus coming to Jesus by night. My Lenten sermon series is about how and where we encounter God. Last week I talked about how Jesus (and we) encounter God in our wilderness times; this week I think I'll talk about how we encounter God "in the night," in the midst not of temptation, but our own fears and doubts. That's a real big issue up here in New England, where it really is hard for folks to admit that they are Christians. Lots of cultural and intellectual hang-ups get in the way of simple testimonies of faith. I've got a lot of Nicodemuses (or is it Nicodemi) in my community. To be born again is to leave a world of security (the womb) behind and enter the bright, wild, unpredictable, surprising, glorious, free world that God has offered us. I wonder what happened to old Nicodemus. What did he think about on the way home, or when he tossed and turned in bed that night. Did he hang on the edge of the crowds who followed Jesus after that? Did he invite him over for coffee and doughnuts? I always think it's important to get to the personal dimensions of these stories and characters if we can. What do you think? -- Tim in Deep River
You are never too old to change. That is what Jesus is telling Nick, when he says, "Do not be astonished that I said to you, 'You must be born from above.' It is a radical "rebirth" that Christ talks about, not something that comes gradually with age. Poor Nick had no idea what his curiosity would cost him, his sense of self-security, his practiced way of conducting himself in the world, the honor and esteem that he had grown comfortable with. Jesus is telling Nick that a complete transformation in each person is required, especially in Nick. How do you think that made him feel? And in view of the rest of the passage, where Jesus talks about God's plan of salvation for the world through the Son, poor Nick's head had to have been spinning, and his soul lost in confusion. Ahh, but isn't this what any great teacher must accomplish in the hearts and minds of his or her students? The skillful teacher "disequalibriates" their mindset, posing questions and offering ideas that seem to clash with one's hard-won cherished notions. For only in this maelstrom of doubt and confusion that arises can changes in thought and feelings and action take place. I wouldn't be surprised that poor Nick was well on his way towards being "reborn" by the time he walked home that night. Blessings to all!
Alan in Port Orchard.
You are never too old to change. That is what Jesus is telling Nick, when he says, "Do not be astonished that I said to you, 'You must be born from above.' It is a radical "rebirth" that Christ talks about, not something that comes gradually with age. Poor Nick had no idea what his curiosity would cost him, his sense of self-security, his practiced way of conducting himself in the world, the honor and esteem that he had grown comfortable with. Jesus is telling Nick that a complete transformation in each person is required, especially in Nick. How do you think that made him feel? And in view of the rest of the passage, where Jesus talks about God's plan of salvation for the world through the Son, poor Nick's head had to have been spinning, and his soul lost in confusion. Ahh, but isn't this what any great teacher must accomplish in the hearts and minds of his or her students? The skillful teacher "disequalibriates" their mindset, posing questions and offering ideas that seem to clash with one's hard-won cherished notions. For only in this maelstrom of doubt and confusion that arises can changes in thought and feelings and action take place. I wouldn't be surprised that poor Nick was well on his way towards being "reborn" by the time he walked home that night. Blessings to all!
Alan in Port Orchard.
As always, some wonderfully thoughtful contributions this week. To both Rick in VA (who I would guess is a fellow Episcopalian) and to Barry in Ohio, you have hit on what for me is a critical issue, and one which I struggle with continually. I have come to believe it is not an either or but one where we live with the paradox. That is, God certainly wants (wills?)universal salvation, and then has provided a very specific means which sounds exclusive (Jesus Christ - I am the way, the truth, and the life). Although God does the saving, God certainly needs our willingness. The urgency for the Gospel is that there are so many who do not even know it is offered for them. They don't know what salvation is. They do not know they are living in what is hell compared to the freedom of Christ. I agree with Alan in Port Orchard that a critical part of the job for the teacher (and preacher) is to wake up (put in disequilibrium) his or her hearers.
Don in NC
Alan: Jesus certainly rattles Nicodemus's thought processes and no doubt intentionally. But I wonder whether his birthing did not in fact begin prior to his encounter with Jesus. It sounds to me like "Truly I tell you that no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above," is an affirmation of Nicodemus's initial expression of faith. Jesus honors the fact that N. has begun to see the kingdom. Jesus affirms expressions of faith like this a number of times as I recall. Including that of Pharisees and even gentiles. Am I misreading it into this text?
If I am not offbase in this assumption, what we have here in Nicodemus's bewilderment suggests that salvation remains a mystery to be lived, not a theology we can figure out and capsulize. Especially in such a way that we get confident in our own understanding.
pHil pHil
Re: being born from above/again ... Often we like Nicodemus focus on the question "how?" ... How can anyone (can I) be born a second time? What do WE need to DO to see the kingdom of God? And yet Jesus' response suggests that being born of the Spirit is out of our control, as mysterious as the wind; it has more to do with what God does than what we do. I find the Romans text helpful here, that the promise comes not through the law but through the righteousness of faith ... perhaps the law has to do with following our own works -- right actions, right belief -- while faith has more to do with following God, to have the courage and faith of Abram and leave our country and kindred if that is what God asks of us. SH in the NW
LS-- I use a wide metal pan. Heap in dry palm leaves. Pour on some lighter fluid or solvent. Light and let burn. TJL
Concerning the necessity of Jesus to die on the cross--God did not demand it, we did. God says "I want a relationship, I love you!" we say "prove it." hence, the cross. To paraphrase Jon Sobrino, Jesus' cross saves because in it the love of God for human beings has appeared with maximim clarity... It seems that a sacrifice was demanded, but not by God. We continue to find scapegoats to pay the price for our refusal to believe that God wills our salvation. Chris in Ca.
Ashes, ashes we all fall down!
I tend to get things wrong, so I studied this very carefully. Here is what I do:
1. Use last year's palm crosses or palms
2. Where I live is very humid, so we dry them in a slightly warm oven the night before
3. Place in a coffee can, with tiny holes on the side to vent
4. Light 'em
5. Mash with a stick while burning. (We get the Sunday School involved - they love it and they come for ashes)
6. Once cool, push through a strainer
7. Mix in a bit of olive oil, drop by drop, just a bit -- they will still look likeashes, but they will stick.
A full coffee tin will result in enough ashes for 200 - 300 people, easily -- but they will burn down to a small amount. It takes surprisingly little to "do" a whole congregation. We do this at Sunday School 10 days early, so we still have time to order some if we have a disaster -- we keep a hose handy!
HW in HI
Re: Nicodemus visiting Jesus at night. Sorry to throw cold water on a good idea, but ... a Jewish born Christian friend has told me she laughs whenever she hears preachers say Nicodemus didn't want his friends to know he was going to see Jesus, that he was scared of being found out etc. It was simply the practice of teachers of the law to visit each other at NIGHT to discuss the law and have theological conversations with each other. They were too busy with their duties to do this during the day. So far from being an act of secrecy and fear, Nicodemus was paying Jesus the compliment of treating him like an equal. The fact that Nic addressed Jesus as 'Rabbi' also suggested that Jesus had received rabbinical training, as no-one in Nic's position of leadership would use that title lightly. Some scholars go further to suggest that Jesus may have been a Pharisee himself! Kind of ruins all that good symbolism with darkness, doesn't it? And suggests that we all need to understand the Judaic background of the New Testament more than we do.
Chris in Oz.
Re: Nicodemus visiting Jesus at night. Sorry to throw cold water on a good idea, but ... a Jewish born Christian friend has told me she laughs whenever she hears preachers say Nicodemus didn't want his friends to know he was going to see Jesus, that he was scared of being found out etc. It was simply the practice of teachers of the law to visit each other at NIGHT to discuss the law and have theological conversations with each other. They were too busy with their duties to do this during the day. So far from being an act of secrecy and fear, Nicodemus was paying Jesus the compliment of treating him like an equal. The fact that Nic addressed Jesus as 'Rabbi' also suggested that Jesus had received rabbinical training, as no-one in Nic's position of leadership would use that title lightly. Some scholars go further to suggest that Jesus may have been a Pharisee himself! Kind of ruins all that good symbolism with darkness, doesn't it? And suggests that we all need to understand the Judaic background of the New Testament more than we do.
Chris in Oz.
This sunday, I thought I would tell real stories of people's experience of being born from above. Any stories out there like that? Thanks - LC in OH
To LC in Ohio,
I'm going to tell several stories of people being "born again" as well. Here is one I came across...I'm still looking for two more. I want diverse expereinces...... . .
Jaime Potter-Miller recounts a moving story in her "Questions" sermon, which was the Second Place Winner in the 1991 Circuit Rider Sermon Critique-Contest. Miller recalls when she was on a visit to the then Soviet Union, and was invited to preach and sing before a bursting-at-the-seams Soviet Methodist congregation. In order to make her way across the crowded meeting hall to sing her solo, Miller had to exit the building to re-enter it on the correct side. Outside the church door she ran into a young man, who introduced himself as Patrick. Miller says,
"I invited him to come in, but he shook his head. 'You are a believer?' he asked me. I nodded. The vodka on his breath stung my eyes. His jacket revealed red flag pins embossed with the face of Vladimir Lenin. If he was not a Communist, he certainly wanted to look like one. In excellent English he spit out the words, 'You are a believer! Show me your Holy Spirit! I cannot believe what I cannot see! Where is it? What does it look like? Where can I touch it? It's all a fantasy! A child's game!' I took his hand and led him to the door.... I said, 'Patrick, I will show you the Holy Spirit if you will show me the wind.' We watched out on the street as blossoms and leaves blew around. Flags flapped and babushka'd women left a trail of fringe. He began to describe what he was seeing. I said, 'No, Patrick, you're telling what the wind does. Show me the wind. For I, too, can show you what the Holy Spirit does. But I cannot show you the Spirit anymore than you can show me the wind.'
"Patrick became very quiet. Now I've been around enough to know that just because you've silenced someone doesn't mean you've won. So I continued. Borrowing the device from my early years as a mother, I cupped his face in my hands. Borrowing wisdom from Brother E. Stanley Jones, I spoke his name, 'Patrick, if you are right and there is no God, then I have lost nothing by believing. But if I am right and you are wrong, then you have lost everything.'
"Patrick's eyes filled with tears and he ran out the door as I assured him that every time he felt the wind blow, he would remember that there was a Christian in America praying for him. " --Jaime Potter-Miller, "A Question of Questions," Circuit Rider, May 1992, 16-17
BS in NC
Some random thoughts from the scriptures...from the discussion......
When where you saved?....is often the question. The answer......"I was saved when Jesus died on the cross." When did I realize this was FOR ME......many point to a time of being reborn....a time of recognition of what Jesus has done FOR ME....FOR US!!!
I appreciate the insite on coming at night.....as a time for discussion and reflection and talking.....not for hiding. It appears to me that there are two "heads of state" coming together here for a conference (note the plurals spoken from both..."Rabbi, WE know..." and Jesus, "we speak of what WE know......"
Two heads of state coming together for discussion. Clearly Jesus "wins" the discussion and points Nick to a new way of living in the Kingdom. While the world expected condemnation, God offered Grace and Love.
Actually, for preachers the topic of universalism becomes most real at funerals. "Pastor, tell me that my loved one is with God......" And, I wish I could. However, I have made a difference in the committal between those who have lived out the assurance of their salvation and those who haven't. In the commital for those who have the words are..."In the sure and certain hope of the resurrection to life eternal, we commit...... For those who haven't lived out the assurance, it becomes, "In the sure and certain hope of the mercy of God given in Jesus Christ, we commit.......
Finally, an e-mail I just received.....It seems an Illinois man left the snow-filled streets of Chicago for a vacation in Florida. His wife was on a business trip and was planning to met him there the next day. When he reached his hotel in Florida, he decided to send his wife a quick e-mail. Unable to find the scrap of paper on which he had written her e-mail address, he did his best to type it in from memory. Unfortunately, he missed one letter an dhis note was directed to an elderly preacher's wife whose husband had passed away only the day before.
When the grieving widow checked her e-mail,she took one look at the monito, let out a pierching scream, and fell to the floor in a dead faint.
At the sound, her grieving family rushed into the room and saw this note on the screen:
DEAREST WIFE: JUST GOT CHECKED IN. EVERYTHING PREPARED FOR YOUR ARRIVAL TOMORROW. P.S. SURE IS HOT DOWN HERE!!!
DP in DL
Dear LS,
I suspect our differing opinions on universal salvation stem from different approaches to scripture. The best scholarly evidence to date (and it continues to mount) indicates that Jesus never "said" John 3.16 (or most of the words attributed to him in John for that matter; it is least "historical" of the Gospels). These are in fact the words of John, in the late first century, fully 60 years after Jesus’ death, when the Christian-Jews (they were still Jewish at this point) were increasingly persecuted and marginalized for their acceptance of Jesus. John is both bolstering his people and attacking his enemies with powerful rhetoric in this intra-Jewish battle. To paraphrase John: "How do we GOOD Jews live, compared to all you other wrong-headed Jews? We believe in Jesus, who is after all the ONLY son of God. And you can kick us out, but we’ll still be right." So, it’s a question of whether or not we value the growing corpus of biblical knowledge and can accept how it stretches our traditional understandings...or pretend such knowledge does not exist or has no relevance whatsoever. In my opinion, one of the major reasons our pews are emptier and emptier is because of our insistence (either explicit or de facto) on the latter, even though we know better.
Chris in Ca does a nice job reinterpreting the meaning of the cross. If I had to accept that God DEMANDED the death of Jesus, or that "belief" in Jesus was the only means of salvation, I would not be a Christian (though I would still love and follow Jesus). In all seriousness: are we really ready to CONDEMN three-fouths of the world's people because they don't "believe" like us? To me it smacks of Christian arrogance, which in its worst manifestations causes such favorite malign pastimes as Crusades, Inquisitions, witch/heretic burning, schisms, denominational bickering, and even crucifixion of truly holy people...like Jesus himself. In this undeniably multi-cultural, pluralistic world of ours, compassion, tolerance, respect--and peace--demand the end of our Christian arrogance. I agree that no religion/doctrine/person can grant salvation. But then, salvation to me isn’t "going to heaven", or "rescue" from "original sin", which Jesus did not affirm nor ever preach. As St. Augustine ironically observed (he, who so firmly entrenched the idea of "original sin" in Christian thought), "Dogmas are fences ‘round the Mystery."
Barry in OH
Barry in OH,
I'm a little perplexed with the following statement: "So, it's a question of whether or not we value the growing corpus of biblical knowledge and can accept how it stretches our traditional understandings...or pretend such knowledge does not exist or has no relevance whatsoever. In my opinion, one of the major reasons our pews are emptier and emptier is because of our insistence (either explicit or de facto) on the latter, even though we know better."
It might be time to come down out of that ivory tower where the intellectual and theological elite have allowed the thin air up there to affect one's faith faculties. The Bishop Spong's of the world, the elite that make up the Jesus Seminar, and the pointy-headed intellectuals who apparently hang out at seminary cafeterias have done their part in ensuring that the main-line church's pews are empty. Why are they empty? They profess a belief system that believes in everything and believes in nothing simultaneously. Why go anywhere to hear that kind of spiritual sludge?
It might be time to check out where it is that churches are not empty and please don't stay in the good old U. S. of A. Why not check out Africa, parts of Asia, and other places where absolutes are being taught and where the pointy-headed don't go, after all they might not be able to enjoy there cappuccinos or they may end up staining their Dockers.
Lift up the name of Jesus, talk about salvation in Christ alone, speak of how sin separates us from God and how Jesus is our reconciler and watch the pews come alive.
Lift up the name of Spong's Jesus, or the Seminar's Jesus, or the Jesus (that I call Gumby Jesus) of the intellectual elites and watch the pews continue to empty.
Please Barry, with all due respect, recognize that dogma is not the exclusive domain of conservatives.
It seems to me that today, there is more dogma in Pagan or Cultural Christianity than there ever could be in Biblical Christianity.
And before arrogance is bally-hooed about by the accusing, it might be wise to spend some serious time standing before the mirror, where one may likely see, if they look hard enough, the emptiness of their own soul.
Rick in Va
Barry, I'm really glad you love and follow Jesus. I pray that He will talk to you, even as He talked to Saul. For the record, my congregation has tripled in attendance since I arrived 14 months ago. I have just returned from serving midweek Eucharist to both congregtions that I serve. Eucharist meaning "thanksgiving". We remember and give thanks midweek for what Christ did for us. Why do you think Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead? Rick, I knew you'd blow in with the Spirit of Truth. I'm praying for revival big time! God bless all of you as you feed the sheep. LS
Rick.. Thanks for making sense. Barry are you a Christian? If you think so, on what basis? What separates you from the rest of the world you don't want to upset.
It is fascinating to me that there are so many entries under this "born again" passage. Most struggling to make Jesus' words fit one's theology, or sociology. Even to the point of thinking Jesus didn't say them. OR looking to Saint Basil of Nyssa, whoever that is, for answers. Yet there is not a single contribution under the Romans passage. If you're having any trouble with the concept of new birth, you might try reading Romans... all of it.
By the way, Rick, do you believe (apparently) that fundamentalists (whatever that means) don't love or walk humbly. Your last contribution makes it clear that you have got things straight. Don’t try so hard to distance yourself from "fundamentalists." You might want to forget the "fundamentalist" caricatures and unite with some other Christians who believe "born again" means "born again." It doesn't mean being our own parents, apologies to St. Basil. Only God can make the new creature that a Christian is. One who can, and will, live forever in the presence of God. He has chosen to do that for "whosoever" puts faith in his Son.
The reason the main liner pews are empty is that the message there is empty. Rick, I believe, pointed to Africa where a real gospel is preached. Real people are really saved. Real miracles happen. Where lost people are reborn from above. We are new creatures instantly, completely justified. Learning to walk in freedom as new creatures, that takes a while.
Those who used to be in main line pews.. Guess where they are? Some are in our fellowship or those like ours. We have Ex-Catholics, Ex-Methodists, Ex-Episcopalians, Ex-Assembly... ex-whatever. We love people (like or unlike ourselves). We believe there is sin. We believe in the sanctity of life. We haven't bombed or shot anybody. We read our bibles and believe what we read. We walk humbly before our God. We believe his word. Oh, no. I think we're fundamentalists. As such, we pray weekly for the main line lost we left behind.
Be blessed.
Love ya.
Nick In Louisiana
Have had the flu for three days, so can't sit up long enough to read all the postings, but in regard to toner. As one who worked for 8 years for copier repair people in our school district, please note toner can be toxic, especially to young children. It is very, very difficult to remove from the skin, and almost impossible from clothes. I still had ashes left over from last year's burning (something I swore I'd never do again), had to mix them with water to make them show up! I have resolved to buy them from the Catholics -- or does Cokesbury sell them?
It seems to me we are all focusing on being born again. I think my folks will focus on "for God so loved the world." There's really almost too much in this passage. Thus, I'm taking it with the Genesis passage and preaching on faith -- God can do anything, even give us new life.
RevJan
Nick in Louisiana,
Would love to expound on my earlier fundamentalist comments.
Please write if you'd like to hear it...
Thanks,
Rick in Va (rrice@bcharrispub.com)
To Chris in Oz,
Despite your friend's insights, I'm not so sure we should rush to discount the significance of Nicodemus visiting Jesus at night. Light and Darkness are too prevalent as symbols in John's gospel, especially in the first few chapters, for John to just throw this detail in accidentally. Especially since this lection ends with Jesus's words on those who love darkness and hate light. Maybe Nick was visiting Jesus as an equal to discuss matters of law and theology--but I still think John is trying to show us that Nicodemus is still "in the dark" about who Jesus is and what it might mean to follow him.
KCS in Portland
If you continue in John 3 you find a very interesting discussion about light and darkness. There is so much in the news these days regarding light (the fascinating experiments in Boston slowing the speed of light, the candidates for president fearing the light of press, etc). What would it mean to step out into the light of Christ? What would be revealed? What might be healed. Do we dare believe that Christ came not to condemn but to save?
Nicodemus went at night because he was afraid of condemnation, by his own people. (Like the M.D. who had back trouble and dressed in a disguise with hat and dark glasses as he went to visit his friend the chiropractor) What would people think?
There is so much life that is trapped by fear, the fear of being exposed, the fear of being condemned. So much of the church's potential lies trapped behind closed doors, if not a sealed tomb.
The invitation is to come, step out into the light. "Behold I stand at your door and knock...come out. I have come not to condemn but to save. I have come that you might have life."
Sorry about not signing off.
Fred from Louisiana
To me, much of the passage hinges on the idea of eternal life... 3:16: I looked up perish, which has a first meaning to die, but it also has a second definition of being rendered completely useless... To me eternal life is life, here on earth, full of purpose and meaning, becuase of our relationship with God. Once we are "born from above,: we are given that purpose: to live our lives in accordance with God's will. Like the piano story, once we are born again, we play music instead of notes. The music of our lives has melody and dynamics and purpose, and then it begins to affect other people... they begin to tap their toes and sing along...
I thank one and all for your comments this week. They have all helped to lead me to a better understanding of the Johannine text. I ask myself the question, What can WE learn from this exchange between two learned rabbis? First, we learn that rebirth is "from above". It is God's Holy Spirit that makes us a new creation. It is not a decision on our part that makes oe a part of the Kingdom of God. Jesus opened the Kingdom to us here on earth with his life, death and resurrection. It is a gift from God. That having been said, however, it is still a matter of "sight" on our part. "No one can DO," says Nicodemus; "No one can SEE", is Jesus' reply. It is a matter of seeing and recognizing God's Kingdom that has impinged upon us. A graphic example of this occurred last night at our Lenten service. Three youngsters (ages 9, 11 & 14) who have been coming to Junior Youth for several weeks with a neighbor who is a congregation member arrived about 5 minutes before the service. The member who usually brings them to youth group was ill, so the grandfather of one of the youngsters dropped them off. The 9 & 11 year-old girls were dressed in soiled jeans & dirty tops. The top on the 11 year-old didn't quite cover all of her midriff. (I would add that their attire is more a matter of what the families can afford rather than fashion statements.) The 14 year-old boy arrived wearing headphones over his ears, listening to a CD. What some of our older members may have "seen" was some disrespectful kids from the wrong side of the tracks who probably shouldn't have been trusted to sit just a few feet from the offering trays. What I saw was a miracle. These three are among the 70% of our nation's youth who have never been inside a church to worship. They came because they were interested-- because they wanted to come. I saw God's Kingdom sitting right in front of me in the front pew-- a little unkempt, a little dirty, a little lost, but open and seeking. I think that is what being born from above is all about. It is about being able to see God's Kingdom where the religious experts who are well-versed in the law cannot. I think I may utilize the latest CD's by Creed & Everlast as sermon examples of God working through music that most "Christians" condemn out-of-hat. These hard rock & hip hop efforts are not explicitly Christian; but I can readily see God, even through the sometimes "crude" lyrics.
Rick Mason Prince of Peace Lutheran Church Chester, SC
I thank one and all for your comments this week. They have all helped to lead me to a better understanding of the Johannine text. I ask myself the question, What can WE learn from this exchange between two learned rabbis? First, we learn that rebirth is "from above". It is God's Holy Spirit that makes us a new creation. It is not a decision on our part that makes oe a part of the Kingdom of God. Jesus opened the Kingdom to us here on earth with his life, death and resurrection. It is a gift from God. That having been said, however, it is still a matter of "sight" on our part. "No one can DO," says Nicodemus; "No one can SEE", is Jesus' reply. It is a matter of seeing and recognizing God's Kingdom that has impinged upon us. A graphic example of this occurred last night at our Lenten service. Three youngsters (ages 9, 11 & 14) who have been coming to Junior Youth for several weeks with a neighbor who is a congregation member arrived about 5 minutes before the service. The member who usually brings them to youth group was ill, so the grandfather of one of the youngsters dropped them off. The 9 & 11 year-old girls were dressed in soiled jeans & dirty tops. The top on the 11 year-old didn't quite cover all of her midriff. (I would add that their attire is more a matter of what the families can afford rather than fashion statements.) The 14 year-old boy arrived wearing headphones over his ears, listening to a CD. What some of our older members may have "seen" was some disrespectful kids from the wrong side of the tracks who probably shouldn't have been trusted to sit just a few feet from the offering trays. What I saw was a miracle. These three are among the 70% of our nation's youth who have never been inside a church to worship. They came because they were interested-- because they wanted to come. I saw God's Kingdom sitting right in front of me in the front pew-- a little unkempt, a little dirty, a little lost, but open and seeking. I think that is what being born from above is all about. It is about being able to see God's Kingdom where the religious experts who are well-versed in the law cannot.
Nothing is more suspicious, in a [person]who seems holy, than an impatient desire to reform other[s] . . .."
Thomas Merton
Just a thought. Jane in Lenox
25 FEB 99 Great story, BS. Chris in OZ gives some good historical-critical insights but w/ KCS, there is still insight in our coming to Christ in secret. And how blessed it is to come at any/all times. Growing up on a farm I've seen how small a role calves--and even their mothers--play in the birth process. How often we (or the veteranarian)had to exhaust ourselves assisting in the delivery. Having said that (and I too had no role in my conception and a negligible contribution through the birth canal) Jesus himself thwarts the literal, physical re-birth that Nic dwells on. I'm arguing that we are passive in the process. The forms of Greek used concur, that is, they are passive: Gennao ("give birth") used in verses 3-8 are all passive voice, eg. "having been born/to be born". Life in Christ is a gift. Other biblical language (memorably Ephesians 1 and in Romans) refers to post-birth experience of adoption. God's will has always been to adopt us as God's Children (Ephesians). Certainly speaks of a universalism in God's desire for all. Still, I may go with "heart" condition... our "change of heart" w/ regard to being born "from above". May run with the music metaphor of "playing from one's heart/feeling it". Scripture speaks of a transformed heart, of "loving the Lord with all one's heart..." Mr. Holland's Opus was on t.v. the other night. After working with the "hopeless" red-head, Gertrude Lange, Mr. Holland finally declared that she had everything straight in her head--she worked hard, knew the notes but "playing music is about heart... You need to trust yourself." She played the solo in the sr. concert (she became Governor at the end of the movie!). It was about trust. The gift of new life in Christ is just that: Gift. And as the heart is tranformed and we grow able to trust more fully and "put our heart in it", life is beautiful music. We becomse virtuosi for Christ (that too, of course, is mostly "gift", vice "skill"). Peter in CA
To Jane in Lenox
The logic of worldly success rests on a fallacy: the strange error that our perfection depends on the thoughts and opinions and applause of other men! A weird life it is, indeed, to be living always in somebody else's imagination, as if that were the only place in which one could at last become real! Thomas Merton (1915-68), U.S. religious writer, poet. The Seven Storey Mountain, pt. 3, ch. 2 (1948).
I am . . . willing to admit that some people might live there for years, or even a lifetime, so protected that they never sense the sweet stench of corruption that is all around them- the keen, thin scent of decay that pervades everything and accuses with a terrible accusation the superficial youthfulness, the abounding undergraduate noise, that fills those ancient buildings. Thomas Merton (1915-68), U.S. religious writer, poet. The Seven Storey Mountain, pt. 1, ch. 3 (1948), describing his undergraduate days.
He could have been descibing most main line churches.
You might be wiser to spend more time studying God's word.
love ya
Nick in Louisiana
Hi, everyone. It's great reading all of your comments on "born again". In selecting hymns for this week, I came across "What Wondrous Love Is This", which focused me on "God so loved". Sacrificial, painful, suffering love. Even more remarkable, being undeserved. One would think that people would naturally respond to such love (and be born again/from above), yet. . .it's so difficult for our people to focus on Lent during Lent, especially Good Friday. They want to jump from Ash Wednesday to Easter in one bound. Wondrous love--we have limited understanding of it, perhaps from our experience as parents. How can we help people to see and understand just how wondrous it is? LL from L
Hi, everyone. It's great reading all of your comments on "born again". In selecting hymns for this week, I came across "What Wondrous Love Is This", which focused me on "God so loved". Sacrificial, painful, suffering love. Even more remarkable, being undeserved. One would think that people would naturally respond to such love (and be born again/from above), yet. . .it's so difficult for our people to focus on Lent during Lent, especially Good Friday. They want to jump from Ash Wednesday to Easter in one bound. Wondrous love--we have limited understanding of it, perhaps from our experience as parents. How can we help people to see and understand just how wondrous it is? LL from L
Cyber colleagues: why the ongoing assaults on efforts to use our intelligence to nurture our faith? And what do these references to "pointy-headed intellectuals" have to do with the text? Nicodemus may not have been ready to accept Jesus' invitation to be born of God in John 3, but notice that he reappears at the cross, this time during daylight, to help Joseph of Arimathea give a proper respectful burial to Jesus' body.
If we don't take seriously the wealth of biblical scholarship (yes, we have to use this wealth with discernment) we have available to us, it's rather easy for us to let scripture say what we want it to say. Is there any evidence in our text, or later in this same gospel, that Jesus has condemned Nicodemus? He has certainly challenged Nicodemus, as I hope he challenges us, progressive or conservative, liberal or evangelical, to be born of God. When I look in the pews of my mainline congregation, I do not see what I saw on weekends during my undergraduate days. I see people who have been nurtured by the gospel for many years, who have faithfully supported the church's worship and witness for decades, people who don't have a simple faith but are simply faithful. And I see younger people coming to be fed by intelligent conversation, serious study, prayer, music, meeting Christ in the face of a homeless person, struggling for a deeper understanding of the way of Jesus.
When I wrestle with the scriptures, as I do every week, I find in them both challenge and comfort, both reason and imagination, both flesh and Spirit. And I am thankful that God has helped me to learn from scholars and teachers and pastors in the church and in the academy. Have I been born again? By the grace and mystery of the God who has come to us in Jesus, I am being born of God, even as I am surprised by the mysterious working of the rustle of the afternoon breeze.
God sent Jesus into the world, not to condemn the world, not to condemn me, but that the world might be saved, that I might be saved, through Jesus' death and resurrection. And I have been saved: not by anything I have done or earned or achieved, but solely and beautifully by the grace of God in Christ.
Yes, I am much like Nicodemus. I first came to Jesus because of his teaching, and I met him as Rabbi. I came to Jesus at the foot of the cross, and met him as the Crucified One. I can see the Kingdom/Promised Land most days, and some days I even live there. By grace I am being saved through faith...
Doug in Riverside
haven't read other posts yet - looks like i need some time to do so. i was thinking how you here of reality checks - here are two different realities. i say God's reality is the ultimate reality.
peace, rachel
Doug in Riverside,
You ask: "why the ongoing assaults on efforts to use our intelligence to nurture our faith?"
An assault is a considered to be a physical attack upon a person or persons. I believe we dumb down the language (which can be an effective tool when one wants to dumb down the Scriptures) when we label written challenges to ideas an assault.
You asked: "what do these references to "pointy-headed intellectuals" have to do with the text?"
In verse 10, Jesus asks of Nicodemus "Are you a teacher of Israel, and yet you do not understand these things?"
I'm taking cultural (and maybe poetic) license, when I refer to pointy-headed intellectuals, to ask our theological teachers and clergy people the same question. Jesus seems to be elbowing Nicodemus in the ribs, winking at him as if to say, you guys are so smart but you can't see what's right in front of your eyes, you can't recognize God, even when you're speaking to Him.
Well, I believe Jesus today would be elbowing the intellectual elites, the pointy-headed smart guys and gals who are so quick to deny the Supernatural aspects of Scripture, God, Jesus, etc. while pontificating loudly about why the pews are so empty, what's wrong with the church, and why it is that nobody really wants to listen to their emptiness.
I'm surprised (well actually, I'm not surprised) that Barry's comments aren't seen as an 'assault' on the Scriptures or on Biblical Christianity but then I remember that these kinds of 'assaults' are usually carried out on one-way streets, where it's OK to 'assault' orthodoxy but it's horrible to 'assault' the ideas of the enlightened.
Doug, I'm sincerely glad that you first met Jesus as Rabbi and then 'graduated' to Crucified One. Simply understand that many in the mainline pulpits today have decided that 'graduating' to Jesus as the Crucified One is archane, un-necessary, and most importantly, intolerant, close-minded, and 'exclusionary' in this multi-cultural and pluralistic society.
I personally will stick with the Crucified One and yes, attempt to persuade others, that they should do the same.
Rick in Va... with a rather flat head...
As I found myself reacting violently to the play in favor of universalism and cheering Rick’s defense of the faith I reflected on a few things that transcend this discussion.
1) One of my professors at duke when confronted with this issue responded to the effect, “Universal salvation is completely consistent with what I understand the loving nature of God. On the other hand I am part of the Christian tradition and it’s traditions, history and scriptures have been overwhelmingly unified in their proclamation that Christ is the only way to God. Therefore, in Christian submission to my faith tradition I will act as though Christ is the only way while holding out hope that God in his infinite love will provide a way for those who do not choose Christ.
2) When ask if I am a liberal or conservative I respond, “I am an evangelical liberal.” I say this to get past the sinful stereotypes that both groups bring to the question. And I say it to make both groups mad. I also say it because it is true in a literal since. I am an evangelical: I believe that Jesus Christ is the way to God and that I and the Church have a responsibility to make disciples. I am a liberal: I am open to change.
In the Love of Christ, tsk in NC
Fellow preachers,
Just heard an interesting show on NPR--one of the many pointy-head intellectual things I enjoy regularly--where two private detectives were holding forth about how, in this cyber/technological age it is almost impossible to start with a clean slate. We leave too many electronic finger prints behind. No matter what we do, there is a long, long, cyber trail recording all our previous internet activities, banking trasactions, library check-outs, driving infractions, credit card purchases, phone calls, etc. etc. More and more, it is becoming impossible to walk away from our old lives, to be "born again" in any fleshly way. Contrast this with the new life Jesus offers us in this text.
KCS in Portland
Those not interested in the ongoing discussion of "universal" salavation prompted by John 3, please skip this lengthy post. Didn't mean to open up such a can of worms, but guess I should have known better.
LS -- was not at all implying your church's pews are "empty." What I meant to imply is that the "church alumni club" is so large these days precisely because mainline churches (and pastors, myself included) have been so often equivocal in expounding biblical scholarship (pointy-headed or otherwise), and have rested wearily on age-worn doctrines and antiquated dogmas that do not make much rational sense to many people in our post-modern era. And we have emphasized reason TOO MUCH over experience in that Weslyan quadrilateral (though UCC, I went to a Methodist seminary). And before another ballyhoo erupts, let's not kid ourselves: the reason it took several CENTURIES, and the hurling of so many anathemas, to iron out the great creeds of the Church is because those "church fathers" were trying to fashion as reasonable an explanation for their transcendent experiences as their third and fourth century hellensitic philosophies could offer. They were very wise, very pious...and as limited and politcal as we are.
Rick: we've had this conversation before. Thanks for reminding me of my pointy head (which I sharpened in the ivory tower of my parish this week "sludging" around doing home communions, visiting an alcoholic prisoner, mentoring a new pastor to the area, starting a confirmation class, visiting a dying woman in a nursing home, and playing inummerable games of tic-tac-toe with my six-year old). I did however enjoy you earlier posts on John 3.
Doug in Riverside: thanks for your post...especially the last paragraph.
Nick in LA: What makes me a Christian...my baptism? Presumably. My call to ministry and ordination? Possibly. But chiefly I guess, it is my love for who and what Jesus was and the vision of God he offered, and the fact that I can embrace him and his vision despite my doubts and rational...uh, "infidelities." And because Jesus teaches me that God loves me for who I am and not what I believe. But if I must play some kind of game to be a Christian, affirming that our way is the best way (or the only way), then I must break the rules or refuse to play. I have been touched too deeply, moved too profoundly, impacted too strongly in my mind AND my heart, by the Christian mystics, and the wisdom of Buddha, Mohammed, Lao Tzu, Black Elk (amongst others) to accept ANY ultimate claims...except that GOD IS, and that, somehow, GOD WAS IN JESUS...as "he" was in these others, too. I know you'll likely disagree (God made us all different for a reason), but the Bible for me is not the only "word of God" in this rich, beautiful, complex, miraculous, multi-facted diamond of a world, and Jesus, though he is mine and your savior, is not the only savior. Or is God so limited in power, imagination, and love for humankind, that "he" could create only one "Way"? Finally, nothing seperates from me from the rest of the world...except my own occasional fear and reluctance. I don't want to be seperate, and I don't think Jesus did either. In fact, he waded hip deep into parts of the world where so many of the righteous and pious of his time--often insisting on right belief and propositional religious truth--would never go. For me the power of incarnation lies chiefly in that reality.
Barry in OH
Ah, my cyberdesperados, we haven't moved much further than those rabbi night visitors who would argue points of law, we are so sure that we understand this passage, that we know the 'right, fundamental thing,' even our imagination escapes us, we theologically educated and denominationally affirmed! The medieval classic, The Cloud of Unknowing, speaks directly here to us. We like Nicodemus, must enter the cloud (of transfiguration) of unknowing - to be willing to risk to be insecure in our ideas; for the cloud is also one of forgetting - when one is so raised on the Torah with the minute details of law and interpretation (or we so raised by good Christian Education teachers from Sunday School through Seminary) must give up what we "know" and find a new way! Perhaps if the Jesus Seminar did anything for us - it was to suggest that we stand with very little factual evidence - but embraced by a faith with holds us - indeed we have moved into the mystery with old Nick, and now what are we going to do?
tom in ga
Ah, my cyberdesperados, we haven't moved much further than those rabbi night visitors who would argue points of law, we are so sure that we understand this passage, that we know the 'right, fundamental thing,' even our imagination escapes us, we theologically educated and denominationally affirmed! The medieval classic, The Cloud of Unknowing, speaks directly here to us. We like Nicodemus, must enter the cloud (of transfiguration) of unknowing - to be willing to risk to be insecure in our ideas; for the cloud is also one of forgetting - when one is so raised on the Torah with the minute details of law and interpretation (or we so raised by good Christian Education teachers from Sunday School through Seminary) must give up what we "know" and find a new way! Perhaps if the Jesus Seminar did anything for us - it was to suggest that we stand with very little factual evidence - but embraced by a faith with holds us - indeed we have moved into the mystery with old Nick, and now what are we going to do?
tom in ga
25 FEB 99 (one last time) Perhaps a clarification on the possible moniker "universalist": I was refering to God's WILL... which is to adopt everyone as God's own child (w/ "full rights as a child, including inheritance" as it states on the adoption decree of our own child). See Ephesians 1:5. Whether we resist that will, turn away, act like bastards, or God just keeps trying until ultimately successful (i.e., true universalism) was not part of my post. Re "born again." The story goes, an Amish man (may be true, apocraphal or generic enough to apply with various characters) was asked "Are you born again? (Saved? A believer?etc...). Replied he, "Why ask me? Here's the names and numbers of my banker, feed mill manager, family... ask them." Peter in Ca
Great conversation! Thanks to all, especially tsk in NC. One of the many tensions in Scripture is the often stated will of God that all should know and live in God's love and Jesus'proclamation the Jesus is "the way, the truth, and the life." Can God do anything besides God's will? Yet, our revelation from God certainly understands Christ as the way. One of the focuses of this pericope seems to be our desire to box God in and define God in ways that fit in our little boxes. Nicodemus came to Jesus and said "Rabbi, we know . . ." Yet, Jesus seems to challenge what it is that Nicodemus knows. "The wind blows where it chooses." Interestingly enough, Nicodemus seems to be both an intellectual and a defender of the traditional doctrine of his time. Our abilities to reason and our doctrine will always be too small for our God. So, somehow, we just have to learn to live in the tension. Isn't God great!!!
Grace and Peace,
ROG in NC
Recently in a matter of great disagreement by local clergy (taking polar sides) the bishop called us to discern through discussion, but all must come with the understanding that he or she could be totally wrong. All must come open to the Holy Spirit, open to transformation, open to change. Else there would be no discussion.
That is also the value here at DPS. It is tough to be open when we "speak" with someone coming from an opposite position. Nicodemus thought he had the answers, as did the Israelites of his day. But he sought God (my trinitarian theology says Jesus is God), and he changed. There is a song that comes to mind, "I waited for the Lord on high, I waited and he heard my cry." Okay, not a great fit, I guess, but the patience, the slogging through it, can transform us. The faithfulness of not accepting the easy answer, but looking for God in an answer opposite our own -- there will we find him, who is mystery.
Thanks to whoever decribed themselves as an evangelical liberal. I like it. As for me, I know darn good and well that I have been born again, but the language scares my people. Maybe I'll use it anyway, maybe...
HW in HI
Barry:
To the question: "Are you a Christian?" Sadly, I will take your answer as a "no." It certainly wasn't your baptism. It certainly wasn't your call. It certainly isn't your vague discussion about "love." In fact, there is a clear "no" in your refusal to trust in Christ and Him alone. He is THE way, THE Truth, and The Life. Where do you pastor? I would like to send a copy of your last answer to your congregation.
Just a thought.
Love and now prayers for your salvation.
Nick in Louisiana
Golly gee whiz Nick
Could you have said more hurtful words if you'd tried? They'll know we are Christians by our venom? When we know for sure we're right we probably got it wrong. Still, how wonderful it must be to be perfectly sure, perfectly right. I am so happy for you!
Nick: Community UCC, Ft. Seneca, OH...and they get the same "vague discussion about love" all the time, have heard me reject orignal sin, etc., etc.; and yes, our small church has grown, chiefly with young familes. If you really want to know "when" I became a Christian (in the words of Willam James, an Easter "peak experience" in 1980, after several years of drug addiction), e-mail me...and THEN judge me. Or better yet, don't judge me; seems I heard a scripture about that once somewhere...
Barry in OH revbarryb@aol.com
Perhaps this is the time to again review the "Guidelines for Posting on DPS." For, while we are all entitled to our opinions and our viewpoints and our theologies, I don't believe Jesus would be happy with ANYONE attacking a fellow Christian.
If we, who are leaders of the church can't get together and work for the Kingdom, how can we possibly expect our people to? Please, please, use care when reply to another person's post.
RevJan
tsk in NC,
I really appreciated the term evangelical liberal.
I too am open to change. My character needs changing, my heart needs changing, my compassion, my priorities, my prayer life, my service, my passion, and so much more needs changing.
But God's character, His truth, His uniqueness, and the salvation He's revealed in Jesus Christ alone does not.
I agree with HW. We need to be open to understanding we might be wrong on one viewpoint or the other. But I'm not giving up ground granted to me by the revealed and inspired Word of God.
Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world. Buddha is not. Jesus Christ is the Lord of the world. Mohammed is not. Are these opinions? Or are these the essential teachings of the Church and of the Bible?
The Scriptures teach that there will be false teachers and false prophets. We are warned time and time again to be on the lookout for them.
How in the world, if we adopt Barry's outlook on Christ as one among equals within all religious communities, would one deal with the teachings concerning false teachers and false prophets? There are only a couple of ways. Interpret away the teaching as the meanderings of an insecure early church attempting to defend their beliefs (quite popular with many pointy-heads) or turn the tables by deciding that the false teachers and prophets are those who continue to hold to Credal beliefs and a Biblical worldview.
I'll agree with Barry on this point. Biblical teachings are tougher to express in this post-modern, relativistic age. Many in the pews have become spoiled by the dispensing of therapy and pious empathy that lacks the two edged sword of Law and Gospel. So what do we do?
Well Barry, although I'm pained by the idea that clergy, shepherds ordained to uphold and defend Biblical truth, would turn to Lao Tzu, Black Elk and others as equal to Christ, I'll never turn in that direction.
HW, I cannot change and accept Barry's views and still call myself a believing Christian. If I were an African American, I could not call myself a Caucasion. If I were a woman, rather than a man, I could not call myself a man.
I find it difficult, and going against the teachings of my Church, the Canons of my Church and Holy Scripture, to call anyone a Christian, much less a 'born again' Christian, who though denying essentials, wants to be labeled as such.
Sooner or later, we must decide that there is a line across which we will not go, for to do so would in effect invalidate what it is we believe.
Christ's divinity, His uniqueness, our depravity without Him, our transformation as we submit to Him, His propitiatory death, His resurrection and the teaching that Salvation is found only in Him is where I'll take my stand.
And I won't be moved from it.
"Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him."
I'm afraid that in Barry's world, there is nothing to be saved from.
Rick in Va
well now i have had time to read the posts before mine, and much helped me - thank you for those who put forth ideas, stories, gleanings from your learnings. But there were posts which have saddened me greatly. How can we call ourselves "born from above" and be so hateful? I am just dumbfounded. I consider my congregation mainline, and we are not only growing, we are baptizing people and bringing people into a relationship with Christ and the church where there has been none. I will let God judge or decide when this is no longer what i should do. Maybe i am especially sensitive to this because i know most of the congregations in my area would interpret the Bible as saying i have no right to even preach, and yet i see God working through our congregation in such great ways. I too have received mail praying for my salvation because as a woman preacher i must be going to hell. well, i do appreciate all prayers. - but i do not appreciate reading such hateful posts. if you disagree simply state your position without lambasting others and proclaiming in essence that you are the only one who knows God. thank you.
now back to studies: Fred Craddock has swayed me with Jesus meaning born from above - from God - totally grace filled as many of you have said. and Nicodemus picking up on the other meaning of the word, born again. - a doing on our part, a logical step. as i said earlier it seems to be two differing realities - how many seem to have no awareness of God's reality, which i call ultimate reality.
thank you for letting me blow some steam, and may God help us indeed to become one. - rachel
The Four Spiritual Laws, a small pamphlet, written by Bill Bright has been very helpful to me in understanding that Christ is the ONLY bridge to the Father. I had heard the scripture, Sunday School, Church, Youth Group, my own Bible study, but a lay speaker shared the 4 Spiritual Laws at a Lenten breakfast, and everything came into focus for me. I finally understood. Now I buy these pamphlets in quantity and have them available to pass out, tuck into books that I'm lending out, tuck into pockets of loved ones, etc. These are available at any Christian book store and are now about $.12 each. I once was blind, but now I see..... LS
Hate - 1. Intensely hostile aversion centered on a real or supposed cause of injury. 2. to dislike strongly, arousing the sensation of hate.
The above from the New Webster's Dictionary of the English Language.
rachel,
I understand hatred in the context of Nazi Germany and their murderous campaign to establish a Supreme race, the dragging of a man by chain behind a pickup truck because he happens to be black, or the beating and killing of a man because he happens to be a homosexual.
I don't see hate in the posts I've read here on the DPS. I see the challenging of presuppositions, ideas, and theologies. I see strong opinions (on both sides). I see the potential for the sharpening (as iron upon iron) of man's view of God.
I don't see hate.
Do you really?
Rick in Va
"The grace of god means something like: Here is your life. You might never have been, but you are because the party wouldn't have been complete without you. Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid. I am with you. Nothing can eveer seperate us. It's for you i created the universe. I love you. There's one catch. Like any other gift, the gift of grace can be yours only if you'll reach out and take it. Maybe being able to reach out and take it is a gift too." Frederick Buechner, Listening to Your Life, 10/30. Larry cny
I have seen this week that to journey with God means to be open hour by hour, to where and what God is directing us. To be moved by the wind. So often I am frozen still and wrapped up in my version of the difficulties or challenges in life. I know, like Nicodemus thought he knew. Recently I have been praying about a long standing conflict. Suddenly, the conflict got a whole lot worse as all the bottled up negative feelings boiled up. I kept asking God to show me through, "let me be open to what you are trying to teach me here?" It helps to have friends who listen well too. It helps to have people who will dare to tell you how the "other" person experiences life. Walking with God day by day led to an old conflict being resolved, a growing sense of compassion within me for this other person, a deeper faith that God will help us if we are open to this help, and a heart knowledge of the wonder of forgiveness. I have been thinking about the times I have preached with such assurance that Nicodemus came at night because he was in the dark. How has our interpretation of this scripture caused harm to our Jewish brothers and sisters? How does our interpretation of scriptures cause harm to one another? I see now that there is a real possibility that he came at night because he was open to learning from Jesus. After all, at the end of Jesus life he came with spices. The light that shines from Jesus had slowly invaded his life. Learning sometimes happen in a flash of insight but often it is a long process. Darlene
Take it to the Web Theology site, please.
I've gotten pretty good at scrolling past your entire posts, Rick in VA. If I were on the COM, I would say you are a long way from being able to be the servant of all.
In Luke's gospel, Jesus the child is in the temple. Mary and Joseph find him, and essentially reprimand him for being a disobedient child. He answers. I think Mary's response is most important to us of the DPS. She didn't chide him further, she didn't defend her position as mother, but she "PONDERED THESE THINGS IN HER HEART." As a mother,( expecting to be a grandmother), on my 61st birthday, I am hoping that my dear Christian brothers and sisters who have all been called to pastorates who learn to do the same. I love you!
Shalom
Pasthersyl(please don't respond)
Just a quick thought.....As I read over your many comments, the song that Peter, Paul and Mary made famous titled "Blowin' in the Wind" comes to mind. rev.Bob
Nichodemus saw Signs Jesus wanted him to see the kingdom
Nichodemus wanted to be born again in the flesh Jesus wanted him to be born in the spirit
Nichodemus thought he had to enter his mothers womb Jesus wanted him to enter the kingdom of Heaven
Nichodemus wanted something concrete to order his life. Jesus offered something with the freedom of the wind
Jesus offered Nichodemus did not receive (at least not at this time)
tsk in nc
I can't help but relate this to my exerience in my former religion. I am a convert to Christianity from Buddhism. This story sounds so much like the "learner-Guru" tales so often used by Buddhists. The seeker comes to the master. "What must I do to find enlightenment?" Only this exchange has a definite twist. Nick doesn't know he needs enlightenment, so isn't really seeking it. Jesus tells him "You must see the light." (My translation). The unenlightened gets confused by the mere words, but slowly the light begins to dawn. The difference between Buddhism and Christianity at this point is critical: in the light of the Spirit, Nick will see Jesus for who he really is: God, Messiah, Son of God, Savior of the World, Everlasting...you get the idea. That is what happened to Peter when the Spirit lets him see Jesus as the Messiah. Buddhists aren't looking for God, just the light (which Paul respects: "in the hope that they might feel after him and find him." Acts 17:27). I found Jesus. You can too. But first you must be born again--passing through the dark tunnel 'till you come to the light. Boyd in NC
Before I started to write in this space, I read "Review Guidlines for Posting on DPS" , I suggest that many of you should re-read this section.
In the last few months, as a student in Seminary, I have followed your discussions and used many of your points in homilies. You have been my teachers, and I thank you for your lessons.
I am not certain what I learned from you this week--but I'll work it out. Somehow. Mickey
I am interested in knowing how others are relating this passage to Genesis and Romans. I have entitled my message "Nicodemus: the story of everyman" and am going with the concept that what is done to accomplish our salvation comes as a gift.
Doc in OK
As someone who has been involved on the web and in electronic conversations almost since the beginning; and as someone who has fairly strong opinions about the subject (sidetrack) of the week, let me share some hard learned experiences.
Early in my online life I had occasion to have a few passionate discussions. In one case I found I had causes someone great personal pain. In another I had been seen as mean spirited. In a third I had been misunderstood to say something I had not.
In every case it had been my unintended fault. I quickly realized that I could type faster than I could consider the consequences of my words and that I could think faster than I could feel and that my feeling can come across more abrasively than I intend online.
The simple fact is, as you say hard words to someone in love online; you can not reach out and touch them, show compassion in your voice and face. Nor can you see the pain in their body language, the tears in their eyes which tells you how to respond in Christian care; proclaiming the gospel in both truth and love.
As a result I have taken to writing responses to passionate online discussions and holding them for several hours, re-reading them and editing them before I send them. Since beginning this discipline I have not been accused of being hateful or mean spirited, nor has anyone accused me of causing them great pain. At the same time I have been able to proclaim the truth of the gospel in strong and even confrontational ways when the Holy Spirit has led me to do so.
One further note, John 3:17 says that Jesus came <U>not to condemn</U> the world but to save it. And likewise the passage quoted about not judging might be more accurately translated “do not condemn”. By translating it this way it fits much better with a pervasive theme of truth and responsibility (we have to judge the truth) that both Jesus and Paul proclaim. It is vital that we have these discussions if God’s truth is to be known. It serves no purpose to attack, except to throw into question God’s truth.
tsk in nc
Going for three messages in a row!!!
The passage for this week ends in mid paragraph. Verse eighteen continues "...those who do not believe are condemned already, because they have not believed in the name of the only son of God."(NRSV)
-This principle of Christ’s centrality and necessity is found in an overwhelming number of other scriptures (some of which others have quoted.) With few if any passages even hinting that Christ is not necessary. -The effect of accepting Christ as savior is backed up by a huge (though not universal) body of personal experience within the Christian tradition. Religions other than Christianity do not have the concept of salvation and there fore can not experience our notion of salvation (though they may be able to experience some form of satisfaction with their religion.) -A belief in Christ’s centrality and necessity has been consistent through all of church history, and a personal commitment or “belief” has been a mark of Church doctrine during every church wide age of revival. -It is obvious that we have some disagreement about the test of reason on this issue, though I personally feel the argument against the necessity of Christ is particularly troublesome on several different levels, most notably: why would God come to earth as Christ to suffer and die if it were not necessary?
I have little doubt that Christ is a necessary part of salvation. No other religion can deal with the sins I have committed and the separation from God that causes. In fact no other religion that I know of (except some cultic groups who are built on a pseudo Christian tradition) even claim to provide salvation.
Yes I am a United Methodist.
What some perceive as fighting, condemnation, attacks, etc. are perhaps growing pains(?) We wrestle with Truth because we live in a society that teaches, everything is alright to believe, live and let live. Don't impose your own thoughts on someone else, how selfish of you. Let this week's posting be a wake-up lesson to all. If you have received the commission to "Go Ye Therefore.." there is much work to be done. When Peter received the gift of the HS, he boldly proclaimed who the Christ was. Not, "well, I don't want to hurt your feelings, but, perhaps, maybe I can share a little something with you.." The Deceiver lies. Souls will be lost because of the "live and let live" attitude, and milktoast pastors in the pulpit. I pray for revival. I pray for the armor of God to be upon all of you. We cannot be closet Christians, who believe Christ is the Savior, and then agree with society that all of the religions of the world are also right. Spirit of the Living God fall afresh on me and all of us. LS
A little boy was overheard talking to himself as he strutted through the backyard, wearing his baseball cap and toting a ball and bat: "I'm the greatest hitter in the world," he announced.
Then, he tossed the ball into the air, swung at it, and missed.
"Strike One!" he yelled. Undaunted, he picked up the ball and said again, "I'm the greatest hitter in the world!"
He tossed the ball into the air. When it came down he swung again and missed. "Strike Two!" he cried.
The boy then paused a moment to examine his bat and ball carefully. He spit on his hands and rubbed them together. He straightened his cap and said once more, "I'm the greatest hitter in the world!"
Again he tossed the ball up in the air and swung at it. He missed. "Strike Three!"
"Wow!" he exclaimed. "I'm the greatest pitcher in the world!" (from MIKEY'S FUNNIES)
We have to decide if we are going to be the best Christians or the best philosophers. Which are you?
For those who are open-minded and tolerant enough to read my posts (chuckle), from Draper's book of Quotes:
BORN AGAIN
Everything that is born of God is no shadowy work. God will not bring forth a dead fruit, a lifeless and powerless work, but a living, new man must be born from the living God. JOHANN ARNDT (1555–1621)
In the natural world it is impossible to be made all over again, but in the spiritual world it is exactly what Jesus Christ makes possible. OSWALD CHAMBERS (1874–1917)
No human birth can compare to the supernatural birth of a child of God. JAMES MONTGOMERY BOICE
The egg’s no chick by falling from the hen, Nor man a Christian till he’s born again. JOHN BUNYAN (1628–1688)
The first time we’re born, as children, human life is given to us; and when we accept Jesus as our Savior, it’s a new life. That’s what “born again” means. JIMMY CARTER (1924– )
There are two spirits abroad in the earth: the spirit that works in the children of disobedience and the Spirit of God. These two can never be reconciled in time or in eternity. The spirit that dwells in the once-born is forever opposed to the Spirit that inhabits the heart of the twice-born. A. W. TOZER (1897–1963)
Though Christ a thousand times in Bethlehem be born, If he’s not born in thee, thy soul is still forlorn. ANGELUS SILESIUS (1624–1677)
You must be born again. This is not a command, it is a foundation fact. The characteristic of the new birth is that I yield myself so completely to God that Christ is formed in me. OSWALD CHAMBERS (1874–1917)
Your whole nature must be re-born, your passions, and your affections, and your aims, and your conscience, and your will must all be bathed in a new element and reconsecrated to your Maker and, the last not the least, your intellect. CARDINAL JOHN HENRY NEWMAN (1801–1890)
Hope none were too hateful (grin)...
Rick in Va
I'm not at all clear that because a church is growing that this, in and of itself, means that the church is teaching God's truth. Is this really what those of you believe who seem to be suggesting this? In Christ, Dale Proulx
I didn't know Nick had all these others in the room with him. If God wills that all be saved could he really do it without my permission? ME
Tim in Deep River:
Your questions posted on 2/23 are thought provoking. I agree that it adds insight to the text and to our preaching when we consider the personal dimensions of the characters and their stories. I think in Nick we see a personal progression of faith. In Jn 3.2 the author stresses that he came at night to see Jesus, this is stressed again in Jn 19.39 as Nick is referred to the man who had earlier visited Jesus at night. Nick is in this drama at one other time in Jn. 7:50 when he questions the other Pharisees wisdom in condemning a man (Jesus) before they have heard him. The Pharisees respond there by saying "look into it and you will find that a prophet does not come out of Galilee." (a typical Pharasaic response, which Nick would prabably have espoused earlier), yet Nick seems to say look at this man what he is saying and doing to discern whether he is the Messiah...the Pharisees respond with what is written. Nick progresses so far as to defile himself where he would be unclean for seven days, unable to participate at the temple, probably shunned by his peers, so that he can bury the body of a man whom his peers had condmned to death. From night visits to daylight activities that would surely have brought condemnation from the other Pharisees. Nick is a changed man, and the progression is shown in the three places that the author of Jn. places Nick crossing the path of Jesus and those who oppose him. Well, I wrote more than I meant to...
I wanted to ask, in your lenton sermon series, what do you plan for the remaining weeks? It sounds interesting.
MK in KY
In a sermon I just read at Sermon Central, Edwin Peterman makes the points that "born from above" reminds us that slavation is God's doing, not ours. Therefore, if anyone asks us if we're born-again, we should answer, "No, but I am born from above." And if they ask you if you've taken Jesus as your personal Lorfd and Savior, you can reply that that isn't nearly as important as the fact that God chose me to save through his Son Jesus Christ. That is the real power of John 3:16. Ken in WV
Wasn't gonna post anything else, but I enjoyed Rick's qoute post...and remembered I had the following on disk from a workshop I once led. Something for everyone...enjoy.
Barry in OH
Progress is impossible without change; and those who cannot change their minds cannot change anything. --- George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950) , Anglo-Irish playwright, critic
Change is not made without inconvenience, even from worse to better. --- Richard Hooker (1554-1600), English theologian
A living thing is distinguished from a dead thing by the multiplicity of the changes at any moment taking place in it. --- Herbert Spencer (1820-1903), English philosopher
All things change, nothing is extinguished. --- Ovid (43 BC-17 AD), Latin poet
The universe is change. Our life is what our thoughts make it. -- Marcus Aurelius (121-180), Roman emperor and Stoic philosopher
There is nothing stable in the world; uproar's your only music. --- John Keats (1795-1821) English poet
Chaos often breeds life, when order breeds habit. --- Henry B. Adams (1838-1918), American historian
Confusion is a word we have invented for an order which is not understood. --- Henry Miller (1891-1980), American author
In all chaos there is a cosmos, in all disorder a secret order. --- Carl Jung (1875-1961), Swiss psychiatrist
Conservative. A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished from a Liberal, who wishes to replace them with others. --- Ambrose Bierce (1842-1914), American author
One of the greatest pains to human nature is the pain of a new idea. --- Walter Bagehot (1826-1877), English economist, critic
Example moves the world more than doctrine. --- Henry Miller (1891-1980), American author
Doctrine is nothing but the skin of truth set up and stuffed. --- Henry Ward Beecher (1813-1887), American clergyman, editor, writer
The great the ignorance the greater the dogmatism. --- Sir William Osler (1849-1919), Canadian physician
Dogmas are fences ‘round the mystery. --- Saint Augustine (354-430), theologian
Dogmatism does not mean the absence of thought, but the end of thought. --- G. K. Chesterton (1874-1936), English author
Dogmatism is puppyism come to its full growth. --- Douglas Jerrold (1803-1857), English playwright, humorist
Calmness and irony are the only weapons worthy of the strong. --- Émile Gaboriau (1835-1873), French author
The longer the island of knowledge, the longer the shoreline of wonder. --- Ralph W. Sockman (1889-1970), American clergyman
Only he can command who has the courage and initiative to disobey. --- William McDougall (1871-1938), British psychologist
We want a few mad people now. See where the sane ones have landed us! --- George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950), Anglo-Irish playwright, critic
Some people will never learn anything; for this reason, because they understand everything too soon. --- Alexander Pope (1688-1744), English poet
The purpose of getting power is to be able to give it away. --- Aneurin Bevan (1897-1960), British Labour politician
Education is what remains when we have forgotten all that we have been taught. --- Sir George Savile, Lord Halifax (1633-1695), English statesman, author
When a man's education is finished, he is finished. --- E. A. Filene (1860-1937), American businessman, financier
To be great is to be misunderstood. --- Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803-1882), essayist, poet, philosopher
That so few now dare to be eccentric marks the chief danger of the time. --- John Stuart Mill (1806-1873), English philosopher, economist
When all think alike, then no one is thinking. --- Walter Lippmann (1889-1974), American journalist
Conventional people are roused to fury by departure from convention, largely because they regard such departure as a criticism of themselves. --- Bertrand Russell (1872-1970), British philosopher, mathematician, social reformer
When a thing ceases to be a subject of controversy, it ceases to be a subject of interest. --- William Hazlitt (1778-1830), English essayist
Put all thine eggs in one basket...and watch that basket. -- Mark Twain (1835-1910), American author
He that leaveth nothing to chance will do few things ill, but he will do very few things. --- Sir George Savile, Lord Halifax (1633-1695), English statesman, author
Ah, what a dusty answer gets the soul When hot for certainties in this our life! --- George Meredith (1828-1909), English author
If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end in doubts, but if he will be content to begin with doubts, he shall end in certainties. --- Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist
It is the dull man who is always sure, and the sure man who is always dull. --- H. L. Mencken (1880-1956), American journalist
Ken in WV has it right. "Born Again" is not about an exact moment or experience, though we all can recount crucial times God used to draw us closer to him. Born again is about God working faith in me and bringing us to him. Another interesting note. John 3:5 quotes Jesus as saying, "Verily, verily, I say to you, unless a man be born of water and spirit, he is not able to enter the kingdom of God." Some people say, "There is a water baptism and there is a Spirit baptism." So there must be two baptisms. But the original Greek text and grammar does not indicate two baptisms. There is one preposition ("from") and one connective (in Greek, it's "kai" -- in English, it's "and"). There is not TWO baptisms, but ONE baptism which includes both water and the Holy Spirit. One pastor once tried to convince me that the water baptism Jesus is talking about here in John 3:5 is referring to the amniotic fluid each of us swam in before we were born. The real baptism Christians need to experience is the Holy Spirit.
Dubby in Topeka
BONUS QUESTION: How many seminarians and preachers on DPS consider knowledge and skill in working with the original languages of the Bible (Greek and Hebrew) of importance in their understanding the meanings and usage of every Bible word they preach to their people? dubby99@aol.com
"Being born from above (or 'anew')". Isn't that an exeprience that we face every day, every minute. How many of us have been so "born again" that we cease being a finite human "from below"? Perhaps each of us is Nicodemus: We don't always understand, oh yes, we believe Jesus to be (?) but we fail to throughly examine ourselves, "lest our deeds be reroved." Lenten Season is a time to examine ourselves.
Mark in Va.
Something else to ponder at this late date. I wonder if Jesus' initial response to Nicodemus was a recognition of an awakening occurring in Nic that he couldn't see? Nic initiates the conversation by saying I know you've not been able to "do" these things without God - perhaps "do" also in the sense of teach. Something in Jesus' words and actions had begin a process of transformation in Nicodemus. Perhaps Jesus was simply recognizing that Nic's "sight," understanding, awareness was beginning to take root in his life. I often think of conversations I've had throughout my life with wise folks, people who are my mentors, who with gentle directness, help me to see more clearly the path I'm on. For me, Jesus is mentoring Nic, helping him to see and understand what is truly necessary to live life abundantly and to love God truly. Great site! I really enjoy all your comments! C in Texas.
I found this helpful in the Sundays and Seasons 1999 book for this Sunday. It is the "images for preaching" section.
"If we consider the geography of Lent. The Lenten pilgrimage takes us through a strange land. It is the territory of faith. Things do not happen in this land as they do in other places. In this land, old men are blessed and promised children as numerous as the grains of sand on the shore. Land in thrown in so that Abram can start his own nation. There is only one hitch: you have to leave your country and kindred and strike out in a new direction.
"Nicodemus, too is called to a new adventure. He is to be born anothen. The Greek work is ambiguous - it can mean "again" and it can mean "from above." The biology, however is crystal clear: You're only born once. "No," says Jesus, "it can happen again" - anothen. When the Spirit blows, you cvannot predict what might happen.
"Starting over - what if you could do it? How might life be different? What would you no do that you did before? What would you do early on that in this life you put off too long?
"It is not a hypotheitical question; it is reality in the territory of grace. You grasp it by faith, says Paul, but it always comes as the gracious gift in the middle of thing. "Another chance," says Jesus. "How can this be?" asks Nicodemus. Jesus replies with a smile and a wink: "Watch me!" And the wind begins to blow.
God's spirit guide and lead you, Tigger in ND
Note to dubby99 - I agree, we can't neglect the Greek/Hebrew text. Just because we can't translate born again/from above with its dual meaning into an English term with the same dual meaning, are we then forced to choose one over the other? Did Jesus use this expression deliberately? Flesh and Spirit united, God as spirit and God as flesh incarnate. The New Interpreter's suggests a time of birth (again) and a place from which it is generated (from above). It goes on to compare the Kingdom of God language and concept - a time of the reign of God and the place of the realm of God. Anyway, I'm still pursuing "God so loved", which brought me to "The Cost of Discipleship" by Bonhoeffer, and his discussion of cheap grace and costly grace. Recommended reading! Cheap graces means "my o nly duty as a Christian is to leave the world for an hour or so on a Sunday morning and go to chruch to be assured that my sins are all forgiven. I need no longer try to follow Christ, for cheap grace, the bitterest foe of discipleship. . .has freed me from that." (Bonhoeffer). Costly grace is what God gives--the price was the Son. Costly grace calls us to radical discipleship - "the path of absolute obedience" - and what a struggle that is! But can it compare to Jesus' struggle on the cross? God SO LOVED. . . LL from L
Note to dubby99 - I agree, we can't neglect the Greek/Hebrew text. Just because we can't translate born again/from above with its dual meaning into an English term with the same dual meaning, are we then forced to choose one over the other? Did Jesus use this expression deliberately? Flesh and Spirit united, God as spirit and God as flesh incarnate. The New Interpreter's suggests a time of birth (again) and a place from which it is generated (from above). It goes on to compare the Kingdom of God language and concept - a time of the reign of God and the place of the realm of God. Anyway, I'm still pursuing "God so loved", which brought me to "The Cost of Discipleship" by Bonhoeffer, and his discussion of cheap grace and costly grace. Recommended reading! Cheap graces means "my o nly duty as a Christian is to leave the world for an hour or so on a Sunday morning and go to chruch to be assured that my sins are all forgiven. I need no longer try to follow Christ, for cheap grace, the bitterest foe of discipleship. . .has freed me from that." (Bonhoeffer). Costly grace is what God gives--the price was the Son. Costly grace calls us to radical discipleship - "the path of absolute obedience" - and what a struggle that is! But can it compare to Jesus' struggle on the cross? God SO LOVED. . . LL from L
Many thanks to those of you who engaged in that heated discussion - edited parts of that back and forth "conversation" make a riveting sermon about the body of Christ. MaryS.
I am new to this site and can only read it when I am visiting my mother in Oakhurst, CA - but, I am amazed at how acrimonious some of the discussions are. I would like to register my support for Barry - thanks for hanging in there. Barb - UCC in NM
Dear All,
One very late addition to the wonderful piano metaphor.
While it is true that there is an often profound difference between playing correctly and playing musically, it is nigh impossible to play musically without first being able to play correctly!
As one who struggles both to play correctly and musically those things which I can play, I am very aware of the need to use both gift and skill harmoniously to create harmony.
To take this metaphor a bit further, I wonder if it is possible to be born again if one is religiously illiterate? Nicodemus most certainly was religiously literate, but that was not enough -- he needed something more, to be sure. However, and here's the question, could Nicodemus have received the spirit (felt the wind) if he were not first knowledgable? I think not. It's take both knowledge and spirit.
I close with an observation -- the more I know of the faith of others who share this planet, the more humbled I am at the marvelous way in which the Almighty manages to speak to so many people in so many different ways a remarkably similar message. We are at our best when we share our beliefs with religious humility.
Jim
I think the rock-bottom issue in this passage is trust. Nicodemus at first doesn't trust Jesus with what he (Nic) can't see. It really isn't an intellectual argument.
Nick in Louisiana: Your comment about Barry in Ohio not being a Christian was out of line. I don't read these forums every week to read jabs and judgemental statements. It's fine to disagree, but not to make ultimate judgements about the salvation of another. Please be loving. There's enough harsh judgement in the world already. NEOW in Maine
sorry... I was saying that i will no longer visit this site ...or contribute to its existence...you have taken out what was good in it
KTG
To LS-
re:<<Help me, please! This was the first year that I offered ashes for our
(UM) ash Wed. service. It took me hours to burn a few palms. There must
be an easier way of doing this.>>
Actually you are doing just fine... just take the time...why the hurry? Good things...like wine take time.. if you are in a hurry...better do something else like buy spray-on ashes.
A hint for you.... it is tradtion to mix a little bit of oil...a few drops.. to the ashes.... practical as it holds them together.. for next year.... consider using a form of imposition i use.
referring to us as stardust, part of the cosmos..." You are star dust and to stardust you shall return"
Don Hoff elmira ny
doanldhoff@aol.com
to Doug in Riverside,
you ask:
<< "why the ongoing assaults on efforts to use our intelligence to
nurture our faith?"
the short answer is that some persons seem to have a need to send out put downs and attacks, even after saying "with all respect".
From time to time others see themseleves as more righteous.... use belittling language...
others even lash out, then use a phrase like "love ya" .
wish they'd stay with the text and not use this as a stage for their loud sounding trumpets.
Don from elmira
to Doug in Riverside,
you ask:
<< "why the ongoing assaults on efforts to use our intelligence to
nurture our faith?"
the short answer is that some persons seem to have a need to send out put downs and attacks, even after saying "with all respect".
From time to time others see themseleves as more righteous.... use belittling language...
others even lash out, then use a phrase like "love ya" .
wish they'd stay with the text and not use this as a stage for their loud sounding trumpets.
Don from elmira
Thanks you for those of you who have made the observation that there is a level of hatred and ill will which is unacceptable here on DPS.
Nick...you are way out of line... and yuor judgements are unacceptable...even when you boast about your ministry and sign notes with the seet sounding "love ya".
Rick- please us the discussion part of DPS for your contributions which go beyond the text..Can't you see the difference, and how others who come to be fed are being driven away?
Can we stick to the text without name calling and puffing ourselves up?
Let's get back to business and be done with this vanity.
don hoff