Date: 5/12/2003
Time: 10:55:03 AM
The festival of the Holy Trinity celebrates the mystery of God, both transcendent and immanent. Though the nature of God is beyond our rational explanation, we ascribe glory to the one who is holy, whose glory fills the whole earth. Christians are born of water and the Spirit, and when we make the sign of the cross, we remember our baptism in the name of the triune God. Born anew in baptism, and nourished at the Lord's table, we now live as witnesses to God's love for us and all the world.
Jesus' miracles prompt Nicodemus to visit him in secrecy. Jesus tells him about being born of the Spirit and about the Son who has been sent by God to save.
How does one see God? Do we see God "sitting on a throne, high and lofty," surrounded by winged seraphs, as in Isaiah 6.1-2? The initial question is even older than that image. Perhaps we should simply ask to see evidence of the kingdom of God, rather than actually seeing the Almighty. That seems to be the question put forth by the Pharisee named Nicodemus. Though he appears to be friendly to Jesus, he does come under the cover of darkness - after all, he had his reputation to think about. Seeing in the daylight, however, is usually easier.
A discussion ensues regarding a birth from above and a birth by the Spirit. Nicodemus is left with more questions than answers. "How can these things be?" Allow me to make it perfectly clear, Jesus responds. Do you remember the serpent on the staff in the days of Moses? The people wandering in the wilderness wanted to see God, or at least be healed. All they had to do was look up to the snake. Look up to the Son of Man hanging on a pole and there you will see, once for all time, the God you seek. One cannot help but wonder if Nicodemus left even more confused than before his nighttime visit.
We seek to see God on this Trinity Sunday. The temptation is to preach doctrine rather than Christ. Show them Jesus. Show them the one who was sent into the world, not to condemn the world but in order that the world might be saved through him. Talk of God's saving grace for the world and for each life on that world. Talk about living lives in that same grace, that others might see Jesus and God in their own lives and worlds. Make God's grace as plain as day.
Date: 6/6/2003
Time: 9:46:35 PM
GSDFSDF
Date: 6/7/2003
Time: 6:58:54 PM
This is also Father's Day and I'm undecided which way to go. Looking for some good Ideas on tying trinity Sunday with Fathers.
Harold in Alabama
Date: 6/8/2003
Time: 12:46:09 PM
Harold: I don't know if this will help but....
In Western theology the explanation of the Trinity focused on three or for latinate terms: coexistence -- that all three Persons of the Trinity exist together; coinherence -- that all three Persons mutually indwell in one another; consubstantiality -- that all three Persons share one Being; and circuminsession -- that all three Persons are active in the activities of each one. This is pretty heady stuff and difficult to understand!
In the Eastern church, on the other hand, a more dynamic and easier to visualize term developed: perichoresis. The prefix "peri-" means "around" and the term "choresis" means "dancing". (The former is found in all sorts of English words today like "perimeter", "peridontal", "perinatal", etc; the latter, in words like "choreography".) Thus, the Eastern Christian image of the Trinity is less intellectual and philosophical -- it is a community of Persons dancing together: the Father dancing with the Spirit and the Son.
That is an image that anyone can relate to, I think. When my children were little, I danced with them -- when they were infants, I carried them on my shoulder while I danced to whatever music was on the radio. Later, as they matured and were able to walk, they stood on my feet while we danced, so that their feet moved with mine. Eventually, they grew able to make up their own dance steps, or to follow mine without stepping on my feet. In time, we danced together. As the Father dances with the Spirit and the Son, this father danced with his children.
The Greek "doctrine of perichoresis" is also more inviting that the Latin doctrines of circuminsession, coinherence, etc. because it includes the idea that we are invited to join in the dance. The Father (together the Spirit and the Son) wishes to dance with his children!
This is one way you could tie Trinity Sunday and Father's Day together.
Blessings, Eric in OH
Date: 6/8/2003
Time: 4:53:29 PM
Thank You Eric: It's a start I may Talk about My Father's house and God's house In My Father's house there was secruity In my Father's house there was provision In my Father's house there was healing in my Father's house there was encouragement In my Father's house there was forgiveness and in my Father's house there was blessing Kind of a picture of what Gos's house (The Church) should look like. The difference between Western and Eastern concepts has great potential. Thank you Harold in Alabama
Date: 6/8/2003
Time: 5:03:06 PM
Rick in Florida
Good luck in your new appointment. WE just finished Annual Conference as well. I retired this year but am still serving the same five churches. My big dearm is to one day start a new work. I would would love to start a multi racial congregation here in Alabama the higher ups might think I'm too old but I'm just hitting my stride. When you get to your new work just love them all.
Harold in Alabama
Date: 6/8/2003
Time: 6:59:04 PM
OFF TOPIC! But read it anyway....
My "Celebration of New Ministry" (what the Book of Common Prayer calls an installation of a new rector/pastor/vicar) has been scheduled for October 1, 2003 (at which time I will have been here for five months - "new" is relative). It's the first date open on the calendar of either the diocesan bishop or the assisting bishop; as it turns out, it's the assistant who will preside.
Anyway -- it's set for 10/1/03, a Wednesday, at 7:00 p.m. at St. Paul's Episcopal Church, 317 E. Liberty Street, Medina, OH.
Consider yourselves invited. It would be great if any reasonably nearby DPSers would come, vest (if that's your tradition), and process with the clergy.
Blessings, Eric in OH
Date: 6/8/2003
Time: 7:02:35 PM
By the way, Harold, the Romans passage works very nicely with Father's Day.
Eric in OH
Date: 6/8/2003
Time: 7:45:01 PM
Eric, glad you have found a place to reserect your bones and have life breathed into them. I want to thank you for the Christian Kit. I used it on graduation day. I made a couple of minor tweaks including a string that would remind them that God Love Each of them. I posted a thank you before but didn't know if you saw it. Nancy-Wi
Date: 6/9/2003
Time: 3:10:31 AM
Nancy - I saw. Good to know. Good addition.
Blessings, Eric in OH
Date: 6/9/2003
Time: 2:01:33 PM
Nancy and Eric I know this is off topic, but I would really like to know, see or hear about this Christian Kit. It sounds both wonderful and inspirational. You can email me directly at portpresby@jvlnet.com if that is better or easier.
Thanks, Dave in WI
Date: 6/9/2003
Time: 3:34:53 PM
Eric,
Thanks so much for the illustration of God wanting to dance with us. That is wonderful!
Congrats, by the way, on your new call, and your installation in Oct. I hope you are feeling the breath of new winds blowing through you, for the people there.
Susan in Wa.
Date: 6/10/2003
Time: 6:57:35 AM
The Festival of the Holy Trinity is something of an anomaly in the church's calendar. Unlike other major feast days, this day celebrates a doctrine rather than a faith-event, and for that reason presents problems to preacher and worship leaders: how can we make a celebration of the day, and prevent it from becoming a mere intellectual exercise? To keep doxology at the centre of our worship will take some doing today. Perhaps the best advice is to allow the day's doctrine to point to the mystery of god, and let it go at that. Adult Sunday School, not sermon, is probably the place for finely-honed theologizing about the Great Three in One.
Tradition to the contrary notwithstanding, we might do well not to use the Athanasian Creed in worship today (or any day!). The energy - and ingenuity! - required to "unpack" its meanings to contemporary Christians seems out of all proportion to its usefulness as doxology. In adult forum, yes. In worship, no.
Date: 6/10/2003
Time: 7:21:37 AM
I was just free-thinking last night about how destructive Triangulation can be in human relationships: family, business, even the church. I contemplated the story of the fall and the triangulation involved there.
In the context of the Sunday of the Trinity, is there any connection in that the Trinity expresses harmony and the fullness of God and that the Trinity (in Moltmann's words) is an open system redeeming history and creation into itself vs. the triangulation human's use for personal advancement and exclusion?
Just an early and confused thought begging for comments.
Pr. del in Ia
Date: 6/10/2003
Time: 3:08:29 PM
This is one of those Sundays that just thinking about what to preach on will make one sick to the stomach with so much rich food for thought and contempation! Do we preach on the doctrine of the Holy Trinity, or do we preach on the lessons that open us to the infinite freedom of God in our midst, whether it be the experience of Isaiah or Nicodemus. The Epistle even reminds us in what reality we are called to live our lives.
Last year, I made the mistake of asking my congregation to join me in a discussion on the Trinity. I will never do that again! So I think I will try to stick to the lessons this year.
As for Father's day, it will be a petition in the Prayers of the People, but will not be mentioned in the sermon, except in reference to the Parent who journeys with us and calls us to himself in Christ.
tom in ga
Date: 6/10/2003
Time: 3:23:14 PM
I love the image of the Trinity--the Father, Son and Holy Spirit dancing. It's not a static image...it's dynamic...alive. Thanks so much. I will use it for the children's sermon. Also, if all goes well, I may be taking a multi-pt charge in the next few weeks. Celebrating communion with shut-ins is top priority for these little churches. Does anyone have an extra travelling communion set that I could buy for a small sum? I would pay for shipping as well. Thanks. rcc
Date: 6/10/2003
Time: 5:04:06 PM
Someone wrote: "The Festival of the Holy Trinity is something of an anomaly in the church's calendar. Unlike other major feast days, this day celebrates a doctrine rather than a faith-event, and for that reason presents problems to preacher and worship leaders...."
I couldn't disagree more strongly! The day is not "The Feast of the Doctrine of the Trinity" ... It is the Feast of the One, Holy, Blessed and Glorious Trinity -- the Triune God -- the Community of Love which is the Lord! This is not a day which commemorates some intellectual philosophical construct! It is a day which celebrates God as God reveals God's self to us... the mysterious Trinity of Love.
I agree that one shouldn't turn the Trinity sermon into a theology lecture. So, don't! But don't treat this day as some sort of celebration of head-stuff! This is a celebration of GOD!
Blessings, Eric in OH
Date: 6/10/2003
Time: 7:34:31 PM
I am new to this site, and I wonder what suggestions someone might have for preaching at a Baccalaureate service for high school graduates this Sunday. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. preacher from NH
Date: 6/11/2003
Time: 4:13:19 AM
Eric, I, too, am interested in the Christian Kit. Would you be so kind as to e-mail it to me also at prchrengr@tds.net I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks! preacher in NH
Date: 6/11/2003
Time: 4:30:24 AM
Hmmm. The first Sunday in a new congregation coming up. I'll have to give a nod to Father's Day, but what better scripture to start off a Pastor/congregation relationship than John 3:16. Talk about starting with the basics! Pastor Rick in Fl
Date: 6/11/2003
Time: 5:03:42 AM
Pastor Rick in Fl
Rick: Having just done that initial homily on pastor-parish relationships, I have some really good "first sermon" resources I could send you. Drop me a note at figtree@consulting.thefunstons.com and I'll reply with the links to same.
Blessings, Eric in OH
Date: 6/11/2003
Time: 5:05:59 AM
OK ... the survival kit. It might actually work as something for Father's Day, although I created it for Grads not Dads....
Here's how to get to it:
Go to my consulting website
http://consulting.thefunstons.com/
Use the navigation bar in the left window to go to "Sermons"...
When you get there, chose "topic index"...
Using the topic index search function, enter "survival"...
When the search results appear, chose the sermon entitled "I Am A Christian" ... that will detail the contents of the survival kit (in the context of a graduation & baptism sermon).
Blessings, Eric in OH
Date: 6/11/2003
Time: 5:18:23 AM
Interesting to perceive our reluctance to delve into the Trinity this week.
For me, the Trinity IS life. We live within the trinity. It is the relationship between all things. It is the very DNA of our existence. The creative, loving, truthfilled spiritual reality which is ME and YOU.
It is when I try to dissect myself, that I start to come unravelled. The Trinity reminds me that I am a complexity of flesh and spirit, interwoven to create a unique person.
Do we get to Trinity, and throw away the entire teachings of Easter. We are in the Father, and the Father is in us. We are in the Son as the Son is in us. We are in the Spirit as the Spirit is in us.
We are one, as "He" is one.
The reason the Trinity is so demanding for us, is that we simply do not fully understand even our own existence. What is life? What is truth? What is love?
The trinitarian formula is not about 1, 2 or 3, it is about the elements that make up the recipe for life, and life in all its abundance. To leave any crucial ingredient out is to spoil the mixture, or to create a mixture that is less than perfect.
I see the Trinity in every element and fabric of life. The mystery of spirit, word and creativeness, is not the sum total of God, but these are certainly the most fascinating elements to my own existence.
Celebrating Trinity is celebrating life.
Thanks for the space to share my thoughts.
Regards,
KGB in Aussie.
Date: 6/11/2003
Time: 6:17:45 AM
preacher from NH
I preached at a baccalaureate on Mother's Day (evening). If you would like a copy of what I did, email me at:
rowell.michelle.r@usa.net
Date: 6/11/2003
Time: 6:21:35 AM
Hey, Eric in OH,
You need to change your address on your web page (still says Kansas)!
Michelle
Date: 6/11/2003
Time: 6:32:39 AM
Has any one thought that we are also triune beings. Are we not body, soul, and spirit? Something to think about.
Harold in Alabama
Date: 6/11/2003
Time: 6:44:01 AM
Here is an off-the-wall thought: Our scripture is set at Passover and Nicodemus comes in from the night to visit the first-born of God. Could Nicodemus be a stand-in for the angel of death coming to kill the first born (a foreshadowing of the cross)? Given the position of the Parisee's in the Gospel of John, I think that he could (I know... Nicodemus is a good guy). I have no idea how such a thought might help a sermon but I found it interesting in a 'late night and I can't sleep' kind of a way...
On a more helpful note, verse 8 allows us to play with the idea of wind/spirit which ties nicely into the 'dancing Trinity' idea. I think it also allows one to make the point that the Christian life can sometimes call us to new places, new experiences, new life as if we were blown about by the wind (or appointed by Bishops). I am thinking of the image of the puffy cottonwood seeds in my neighborhood flying about looking for the place where they will be planted and start to grow.
TB in MN
Date: 6/11/2003
Time: 7:01:12 AM
I am struck by the differences and similarities between Isaiah and Nicodemus.
Both enter the Temple (one made of stone, the other of flesh).
Isaiah is encountered by the holy .
Nicodemus is so rational that he almost forgets where he is and to whom he is speaking. We know you to be a teacher come from God ... It sounds so everdayish ... no sense of awe ... no awareness of the Presence that fills the night air.
Seraphims appear in one; Wind moves in another ....
One recognizes his guilt; the other is not sure how to be born into God.
The hot coal that touches the lips of Isaiah, now stands before Nicodemus inviting into something deeper!
tom in ga
Date: 6/11/2003
Time: 7:14:06 AM
Harold in Alabama- Congratulations on your retirement. I am distressed at the conference thinking you too old to follow where Christ is leading. May God move them to realize that you have only just begun. May the Spirit fill you and may your heart burn so that the sparks you throw off ignite a new ministry. Our hope is in the Lord, not in the structure. Nancy-Wi
Date: 6/11/2003
Time: 7:14:13 AM
Michelle -- Yeah, I know ... one of the hundred million "little things" yet to be done!
Thanks, Eric in OH (not Kansas)
Date: 6/11/2003
Time: 8:39:57 AM
Nancy-Wi
Thank you! One thisg about being retired I can do what I feel The Lord is leading. In another year I will be financially secure enough that If necessary I can start a new work on my own. Back to the subject of our text I just might be that the only time that good old Nicodemus could have had a one on one conversation with Jesus was at night after the others had gone home. It has been a long, long, long, time since I perached an old fashioned hell-fire and Brimstone sermon. This just might be the Sunday.
Harold in Alabama
Date: 6/11/2003
Time: 11:14:02 AM
I invite help as I try to work with Harold's suggestion that we are all triune.
I think I know what my body is.
What is my soul (nephish?)
And what is my spirit?
pHil
Date: 6/11/2003
Time: 11:51:32 AM
Isaiah 6:2 Seraphs were in attendance above him; each had six wings: with two they covered their faces, and with two they covered their feet, and with two they flew.
John 3:14 And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
There is a mysterious connection between the serpent in the wilderness and the seraphs. There is a tradition that tells of the seraphs as firey serpents. It is this connection which links the Prophet and John together.
How we unravel the mystery is beyond my knowing.
tom in ga
Date: 6/11/2003
Time: 12:14:44 PM
Regarding Eric's dance theory. That is a fantastic picture. It certainly is much easier to relate to. As I read your thoughts on the subject the hymn "Lord of the Dance" came to mind.
Mike in NC.
Date: 6/11/2003
Time: 12:18:13 PM
Mike in NC -- Yep! "Lord of the Dance" always comes to my mind, as well, when I think of "perichoresis" -- another is "Open your ears, O Christian people"; the words are not particularly related, but it's a catchy tune that makes me want to dance when I sing it.
Blessings, Eric in OH
Date: 6/11/2003
Time: 1:03:22 PM
Tom in GA The firey serpents of Numbers 21 have the same Hebrew word as the seraphim of Isaiah 6. No wonder angels always say "Fear Not", when they greet people They must be terrifying ceatures. The cross of Jesus would also be terrifying were it not that we know the rest of the story.
JRW in OH
Date: 6/11/2003
Time: 1:19:19 PM
JRW in OH,
The plot thickens! The first serpent appears in Genesis 3 and poisons Adam and Eve. That serpent is Christ lifted on the Cross bringing healing and salvation to the world. John 3:16-17 reflect all this and connects us back with Isaiah 6.
tom in ga
Date: 6/11/2003
Time: 3:23:10 PM
Dear pHil
Try reading Soul: People: Acts 2:41,43; Emotional Life: 1 Samuel 18:1,3 Spiritual life: Psalm 42:1,2,4, Belongs to God Ezekiel 18:3,4 Possesses Immortality Matthew 10:28 Most vital asset Matthew 16:26 Leaves body at death Genesis 35:18.
Spirit: Man's immaterial nature: 1Corinthians2:11; Controlling influence Isaiah 29:10; Center of the emotions 1Kings 21:5; Source of passions Ezekiel 3:14; Cause of volitions (will) Procerbs 16:32Subject to devine influence Deuteronomy 2:30, Iasiah 19:14; Leaves the body at death Ecclesiastes 12:7, James 2:26. There are many others but these few might help. I am reading in thr New King James
Harold in Alabama
Date: 6/11/2003
Time: 5:12:26 PM
Eric,
Thanks for invitation to your celebration of ministry in October. I wish I was closer, I would love to come. Mine will be set for about the same time (I started here in Feb) but first there was ordination and then installation and it all needs committee approvals and getting on the right persons calendar. When I have a date I will let you all know in case you want to visit beautiful colorful Maine in the fall.
Thanks as well for your idea of a Christian kit, I am honoring graduates this week so I am going to give her a kit along with her other gifts.
KS now in ME rather than PA
Date: 6/11/2003
Time: 11:32:19 PM
Eric in OH - Your insights prompted some thoughts around fatherhood. I recall the Dobson film series where he speaks of the paltry, few minutes that the average father spends with his children on a daily basis. Western culture perhaps spends too much time thinking and philosophizing and too little time "dancing". Alas, are we even capable of changing? Thanks for your posting. ARMY CH E, (now in Heidelberg)
Date: 6/12/2003
Time: 2:51:55 AM
Army Ch E wrote about "the paltry, few minutes that the average father spends with his children on a daily basis"...
O my yes! As my kids grew up and became pre-teens and then teens, we danced less and less! They pulled away, which is natural and healthy I suppose, but the time we spent together dwindled. After my son was in college, our times together increased -- we started seeing a movie together once a week. And during my daughter's senior year in high school we started setting aside time for a weekly conversation.
As I have made this move from KS to OH and the kids have remained in KS, our times together have come to an end -- and I have found myself unpacking boxes with tears streaming down my face because I miss those kids so much. But this too is part of the natural and healthy growth process (mine, into "empty-nester-hood")...
Still ... I believe in that paternal heartache is a hint of how God feels about us. I remember dancing with my kids and I want to dance with them now. I'm sure God wants to dance with us!
Blessings, Eric in OH
Date: 6/12/2003
Time: 6:20:11 AM
I seem to be full of unhelpful ideas:
Thinking of the spirit as a wind- I can't help but think that I'm full of wind-- The 'hot air' of my preaching and otherwise (I'll leave that image to your imagination). But spirit... well, that is something different all together.
My sermon is simply going to be a collection of stories of some encounters with God and I am leaving the 'preaching/message' to the mystery of God's presence in our human lives. My semon title is 'Stumbling Across God' and the primary image that binds my stories together is the idea that we tend to trip over God at unusual and wonderful times in our lives. The grace of the story is that where we might trip and fall, God catches us and sweeps us up into the dance of life.
TB in MN
PS A lovely inspiring book that fits this theme: 'The Life You Save May Be Your Own: An American Pilgrimage' by Paul Elie. He weaves the stories of Thomas Merton, Flannery O'Conner, Walker Percy and Dorthy Day into a great read.
Date: 6/12/2003
Time: 6:37:52 AM
TB in MN -- Far from unhelpful! Thanks, Eric in OH
Date: 6/12/2003
Time: 6:40:08 AM
Isaiah 6:1 In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lofty; and the hem of his robe filled the temple.
John 3:14-15 And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
And so the similarities go between these two readings. It is the nearness of the "lifting up" that transforms and transfigures our lives.
tom in ga
Date: 6/12/2003
Time: 8:17:03 AM
Isaiah and Nicodemus are not "uninvolved" in their particular story. They are not "spectators" of God, but both are deeply involved and are truly actors in the salvific drama which is unfolding. They are both open to the encounter and both in their own ways are shaped by their experience.
The questions of Nicodemus give the lie to his membership in the Sanhedrin for he moves himself in a different direction from the Pharisees. You already see the mark of the Spirit on him. Though he comes in the night, he encounters the light and is transfigured.
This happens also to Isaiah who is transfigured by the light he experiences within the Temple and moves from sinful passivity to God's decision, to active involvement has his mouth-piece.
tom in ga
Date: 6/12/2003
Time: 8:24:55 AM
Has anyone considered going to the Greek on this text? There is a serious power-play - almost a verbal duel - going on between Nicodemus and Jesus here. The Greek word, "dunamis," is everywhere.
I see, in this repartee, a major discussion between seeing and knowing (2 magor themes in John's gospel).
Nicodemus is a Teacher and a leader and a Pharisee who comes to check out this one who seems to be performing miraculous signs. He thinks he sees God's power working in Jesus. But he only sees the top of the iceberg. To really know God's power, one must receive the faith that only God can give...one must be both born anew in the spirit and born from above. This is God's doing - there is nothing we can do ourselves to know or understand. We can only stand in awe of our Holy God and say 'thank you' as we receive the gift of faith. --Ponderin' Pastor in IL
Date: 6/12/2003
Time: 9:19:05 AM
I've been playing around with the idea of "3D" Remember those cereal boxes and comics that you looked through the special glasses and the images seemed to be three dimensional? The lines were all blurry and didn't make sense without the glasses. Not to press the metaphor too far, but God is three dimensional and our faith helps focus all those blurry lines. God is three dimensional because that's what living, vital beings are. Too often, we make God flat and one dimensional, (much easier to control that way). Most of us tend to pin our faith on bits of God. Perhaps it's one part of the trinity or perhaps it's even broken down to one part of one part of the trinity. In turn, we become one dimensional Christians all cozy in our own personal niche. I'm still mulling this over. Not a strictly accurate interpretation of the trinity, but perhaps one way to help get a handle on it.
On a personal note--count me as another statistic in the great annual upset-the-fruitbasket that is the United Methodist system. When it works, it is truly great. When it doesn't, it's truly a nightmare. I'm in the second category. The cabinet, in it's wisdom(?), is wanting me to go to a church four hours from my husband in a place where there is little or no hope of him finding a position (he's an ELCA pastor). It is a healthy church and I'm leaving one that is anything but, so perhaps some things will balance out. Still--I'd appreciate a prayer or two!! The other LP in CO (for now)
Date: 6/12/2003
Time: 10:05:39 AM
tom in ga -
have you read William Willimon's sermon on Isaiah? go to www.textweek.com and look under the sermons link, if you haven't read it. He brings profundity to the "players" image.
Sally
Date: 6/12/2003
Time: 10:26:14 AM
pHil - the best way I've ever had to describe ourselves as triune is from a book of children's sermons.
Take a man or woman, who has several relations also in attendance and ask each relation who Mr/s so-and-so is. One will say "My husband," another will say "My brother," and another will say "My father," or whatever the relations are.
When I gave it, I acted confused and asked the children "But, who is Mrs. P? How can she be TWO PEOPLE?" They have a hard time describing it.
Sally in GA
Date: 6/12/2003
Time: 10:50:12 AM
Dear Sally:
I tried to illustrate Trinity to my then 4 year old daughter that way. I said "I'm your daddy, I'm mommy's husband, I'm grandma and grandpa's son, but I'm still only one person."
I thought I'd nailed it until someone pointed out that it makes it sound like God is just like me. OOPS!
There are so many attempts at analogy with the relationship of the Trinity and they always seem to fall down somewhere. Someone once tried the roots, branches, and leaves of a tree. All different but all tree. We try "Creator, Redeemer, Sanctifier" but that becomes a functional definition which denies the presence of Son and Spirit in creation, or Father and Spirit in redemption, or Father and Son in Sanctification destroying the unity in Trinity.
In first year at Seminary we were to write a brief paper on naming the Trinity. The requirement of the essay was posed as:
"At the Councils of Nicea and Constantinople the church decided that the Christian God is to be seen as a relationship. Originally this relationship was named 'Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.' We now experience that naming as supporting patriarchy. But what name will we use? Suggest a name for the Trinity which neither encourages patriarchy nor falls into heresy and show why your naming is appropriate. In order to do this you will have to understand what the doctrine of the Trinity is trying to communicate."
To avoid placing barriers between people and the Gospel, the task is to name the Trinity using language that is inclusive for all people and which accurately describes the relational aspect of God as well as the functional. I believe Augustine described Trinity as the Lover, the Beloved, and the Love.
The crucifixion was the event of self-surrender. God is the one who surrenders by creating, the one who is surrendered for redemption, and the event of self-surrender which sanctifies. This naming describes the Trinity of a Crucified God who is related by the surrender and the actions of God in dealing with us in history and at present.
Like the post at the very top says, "Show them Jesus. Show them the one who was sent into the world, not to condemn the world but in order that the world might be saved through him. Talk of God's saving grace for the world and for each life on that world. Talk about living lives in that same grace, that others might see Jesus and God in their own lives and worlds. Make God's grace as plain as day."
Shalom: Tom in Ontario
Date: 6/12/2003
Time: 12:21:59 PM
The difference between Isaiah and Nicodemus and ourselves is simply the fact that Isaiah and Nicodemus "take only one step" (into the temple, before Jesus) and are transformed; where we continue to "look at" the holy instead of being willing to surrender to it.
tom in ga
Date: 6/12/2003
Time: 1:34:56 PM
pHil,
The Hebrew people viewed us as simply an "animated-body" - a hunk of clay into which God breathed!
It is true that the Greeks contributed much to a sense of trinitarian understanding of the human person, everything was in threes:
Body, Soul, and Spirit
I don't really know how helpful this is. The most important reading of the Trinity is in terms of love - a God who not only has come so very close to us, he journeys with us into all of life.
tom in ga
Date: 6/12/2003
Time: 4:55:32 PM
Eric in OH - every blessing in your new ministry, God's peace to your heartache over leaving your children in Kansas, and thank you for being so generous with your gifts via your website. (You are so right about "Open your ears..." - a special hymn.) What a challenge that gathering at Nicea blessed us with! I've used H2O (ice, water, steam) to "explain" the Trinity. Nothing tangible or earthly can exemplify the Eternal, but humans have always needed to explain things in terms we can comprehend acording to our own experience. Shalom Tom's the Lover, the Beloved and the Love pulls alot together for me. I wonder what God makes of our efforts... Thanks to all for a great discussion as usual. Frandy
Date: 6/12/2003
Time: 9:48:42 PM
Great to see that as the week progressed how the energy in the submissions got stronger.
It is perhaps fortunate that we have the image of three (3)persons. 3 pieces to the whole, 3 separate but equal beings. Three dimensional thinking stretches our puny minds but we can with a stretch comprehend 3 dimensional.
I personally believe that God is not restricted to three persons. That was simply an attempt to describe the various elements to God from a human perspective.
I am more inclined to view God from the view of multi-faceted (eg a mirror-ball or such, a diamond with its many perspectives) To restrict God to a trinity is almost diminutive.
We have begun to see from the postings, that the possibilities of explanation defy imagination.
The trinity is a deeply rich image, but again it must be stressed it is still only a human image.
Life and love is not to be categorised and analysed so easily as to fit into any simple formula for us.
Thank-you again for the stimulation this week. Great stuff.
Regards, KGB
Date: 6/13/2003
Time: 4:13:12 AM
In one sense, KGB, I agree with you that "The trinity is a deeply rich image, but again it must be stressed it is still only a human image."
I used to know a monk who used the image of a crystal sphere in which God was at the center and every human being stood on the surface looking in. Because we each look at God from a unique point on the sphere, we each have a slightly or significantly different view of God from every other human. Those standing near one another generally agree on what they see; those at a distant remove see radically different visions and cannot seem to agree about God. Some see Allah or Brahman or Jehovah; some see the Three Persons; some see multiple entities; some see nothing at all.
This seems to me a sort of Unitarian Universalist conception of human perception of God.
On the other hand, at what point do we stop saying "fill-in-the-blank is only a human image, only an analogy, only an intellectual construct"? At some point, don't we have to say "fill-in-the-blank is revealed truth, the bottom line, not an option"?
In my life, theology, and ministry, God as Trinity is revealed truth, the bottom line, not merely an analogy or human image. It is what God has revealed about God's self -- God is not merely one or two, nor is God four (and, to quote Monty Python, "five is right out!") God is Triune and we are challenged to understand what that means and how it impacts us. It seems to me that it is something of a cop-out to say "God is more" as that begs the question and doesn't respond to nor seek to comprehend what God has shown us about God's self; indeed, it replaces a revelation with a human construct!
Just my thoughts, Eric in OH
Date: 6/13/2003
Time: 6:02:51 AM
Harold in Alabama, Thank you for your kind thoughts. I would guess that God is going to use you regardless of the opinions of the church higherups. Blessings on you in your retirement, Bro. Pastor Rick in FL
Date: 6/13/2003
Time: 7:10:11 AM
New Pastor Rick in FL said to Harold in Alabama: "I would guess that God is going to use you regardless of the opinions of the church higherups."
Don't you think that is the way God generally works? God's been bucking the eccelesiastical system for centuries!
Blessings, Eric in OH
Date: 6/13/2003
Time: 8:13:37 AM
Eric in Ohio. Exactly right. I believe the greatest miracle of the Christian church is that it has survived the activities of Christians all these centuries.<LOL> Pastor Rick in FL
Date: 6/13/2003
Time: 8:27:55 AM
This is not very refined yet, but I think there is value in it. Our John 3:1-17 text has words of caution in it for us who believe and words of hope for those who do not. The caution is interesting. It is hard for many who do not know Christ to enter our doors. Here Jesus reveals to Nicodemus the power of the Spirit to transform our inner self. He gives him and us the not so secrets, secrets of the kingdom.
Nicodemus comes to Jesus in secret and under cover of darkness. He knows of Jesus’ miracles. How many people come to you in secret, and under the cover of darkness seeking Jesus. Let me put it to you another way.
How many people come to your home or meet you for lunch in place of neutral ground, a place where they are safe to explore questions of faith in the darkness of neutrality and yes, even cultural normalcy. There questions may be direct question or sometime indirect.
Here lies the caution if your words do not reflect your beliefs, and your inner self does not embrace and abide the power of the Spirit, your words are just wind. You do not need to preach or even teach, you need only to be honest and compassionate with what truths Jesus teaches. It is his light you speak, just as Jesus enlightens Nicodemuse’s darkness. Nancy-Wi
Date: 6/13/2003
Time: 9:26:04 AM
Rick in FL -- I presume you have seen the bumper sticker, which I confess to being too chicken to put on either of our cars, which reads: "Lord, Protect Me from Your Followers"....
Eric in OH
Date: 6/13/2003
Time: 10:13:02 AM
Hi all, great discussion! I am calling my sermon "Earth, Wind, and Fire." Jesus is the earthy member of the Trinity, God is the mighty wind, and the Spirit is the transforming and consumming fire. Isaiah encounter the mighty wind--the awesome holy God. Nocodemus talked with Jesus one on one, sort of man to man. The Spirit changed Nic's heart. We need all. Just some late thoughts. Blessings to you all. Loril in the Big Sky Country
Date: 6/13/2003
Time: 11:13:28 AM
Thanks to everyone for their inspiring comments. I love the dance image of the Trinity. This brought to mind new song out now by Luther VanDross, "Dance With My Father" or Jody Messina's "I Hope You Dance". I don't know the complete lyrics to the Van Dross tune but am going to try and find them before Sun. Thanks for the strength and insite you give me on a weekly basis for this daunting call to preach. Happy Father's Day to all the Dads. DSinNJ (Debbie)
Date: 6/13/2003
Time: 12:22:05 PM
Debbie (DSinNJ) -- I tried to find the word to the Van Dross song, but couldn't. If you do, I'd sure like to see them. Eric in OH
Date: 6/13/2003
Time: 12:51:56 PM
KGB said "I personally believe that God is not restricted to three persons. That was simply an attempt to describe the various elements to God from a human perspective." Eric in OH replied "God as Trinity is ... what God has revealed about God's self.
In support of Eric's assertion I suggest that it is surely not simply coincidental how often 3 is needed for a sense of completion. e.g. The minumum number of lines needed to make one geometrical figure is 3 - a triangle: 3 elements, length, breadth and height are needed to define the simplest solid - a cube; (and whichever point you view it from you can only see 3 sides at any one time); time has three divisions to make it complete - past present and future; the three persons of grammar express and include all the relationships of mankind; thought word and deed complete the sum of human capability and, as Harold in Alabama has already said, we are triune beings, body soul and spirit.
In trying to "explain" The Holy Trinity, I have found a useful analogy to be a three pin electrical plug. Of the three pins the longest is the earth pin which I liken to Jesus. It represents safety and also is the lynch pin which opens the access to the other two and allows the power to flow. However, it is no use trying to use just one or two pins you have to have all three for the plug to be effective in giving access to the power which brings things alive and makes change possible.
It may be that our UK plugs are somewhat different to US ones but I have seen drawings of three pin plugs on American technical sites.
Someone also commented earlier on a difficulty of linking Trinity Sunday with Fathers Day. My rough draft for Sunday's Sermon starts with asking why we are "here" (meaning in church today) then moving sideways to the difference between love and respect (I never knew my father who died when I was 11 months and had a step-father that I did not love but respected for his courage in taking on two teenage children who were not his own) Then I will try to draw a parallel with the difference between Isaiah's (and OT) respect for God and the way we seem to have diminished Jesus' agape love into something much more sentimental and emotional. ('I didn't get much out of the service today' type of remark) Then moving on through some of those examples of triune "completeness" to suggest the perfection of The Trinity and using the worship as a performance analogy as a reminder that that God is the audience not us and that the purpose of our worship is to honour God our Father (as a purpose of Fathers Day is to honour our earthly fathers) Why are we here - to worship God - but note what Isaiah did - he didn't just worship God, he stepped forward offering to take God's message to the people. (we have a Springboard Mission starting and a meeting about it the next day so my final remarks will be tied to that.)
I know this is a long posting but may I just finally thank everyone for their enlightning and thought provoking postings.
bajwins in UK
Date: 6/13/2003
Time: 1:13:08 PM
bajwins in UK,
You're right, U.S. plugs work even when the round prong is removed, so it won't work as an illustration here, but I like your analogy. It will go into my "possible future use" file. Thanks.
Michelle
Date: 6/13/2003
Time: 4:22:06 PM
Eric--thanks so much for the Christian Kit. It is a great idea! Preacher in NH
Date: 6/13/2003
Time: 8:18:07 PM
Replying to Eric in OH.
Far be it for me, to contradict your obviously deep musings on this subject.
BUT,
I agree with you that we have revealed truth contained within the Trinity. But the trinity is not a defined scriptural doctrine, but one developed by human beings in reflection and meditation upon the teachings of Christ in conjunction with the other.
What I guess I am trying to suggest is that the Trinity becomes a minimum truth. Just as we have all begun to discover that 3 is the minimum of any anatomical structure. Human beings are created in 3 dimensions, the triangle is regarded as the minimum for structural strength in any building, etc.
What I was attempting to allude to, is how difficult it is for us to even comprehend beyond 3 dimensional, and sometimes even that is difficult enough. After all in Christology, we have debates that have been going on for centuries, as to how Jesus can be both "human" and "divine" at the same time.
Human beings usually can only comprehend things in two dimensions. Our ability to view the back of an object or thing is restricted by our human material ability, eg; to see behind even ourselves.
The nature of the spirit,the TRUE nature of God is more often imaged in fire, wind, clouds, etc which are all multidimensional. In the trinity, God has revealed to us the minimal structure of his nature, simply because we cannot comprehend any greater at any one time.
Father, Son and Spirit, were concepts readily understood by the Jewish people of that time. The relationship the Father has with his Son, was well documented. I know that as Father, my sons share some of me, and yet they are unique in themselves. That which we share is not my flesh, it is my spirit. This relationship was what I believe was truly being explored in the revelation of the Trinity.
I accept the objection on the basis of a universalist claim, but I still wonder whether the doctrine of the trinity has yet fully been unpacked. In other words, how do we expand the relationship of Father and Son, to the wider community and eventually around the world. Our relationship cannot operate in a vacuum, or as an island. We are all interrelated, and the challenge for Christians is to apply the Trinity to every relationship.
I prefer to the believe that the Spirit, the Advocate of Christ, has come to lead us into all truth, and will not allow us to remain constricted by history.
I do thank you for your stimulation however. I had not planned to post again, believing I have probably already said too much.
Thank-you again to everyone for the space to air my thoughts. Thankfully you are not obliged to agree with them.
Regards, and best wishes for your preaching this week-end.
KGB
Date: 6/13/2003
Time: 8:38:32 PM
To LP in CO (for now) ~ I am praying for you, your husband, and all those you love, as well as the church you must leave behind and the church to which you are now appointed. God makes all things beautiful ...
~ Mom the Minister (to my kids)
Date: 6/14/2003
Time: 3:10:37 AM
KGB said, "I do thank you for your stimulation however. I had not planned to post again, believing I have probably already said too much."
And I thank you for yours. I don't think you said too much. I understand better your thinking.
I would simply reply that I do not see the _concept_ of Trinity as a "minimum" but as an incredibly rich and deep well of meaning to be explored. I believe it encompasses all the rich diversity of thought, understanding, and revelation that you describe as "multidimensionality".
It's just that I prefer to explore all that within the concept of Trinity as revelation rather than dismissing the Trinity as a human construct. In short, it's simply a matter of how we express ourselves (isn't that always what theological disagreements are about?) and I am more comfortable trying to stay within the perimeter of traditional Trinitarian thought and theology. That's all!
Blessings, and best wishes of the day -- Happy Trinity Sunday!
Eric in OH
PS to KGB -- Was having the same initials as the Soviet secret service ever a problem? Just wondering strange wonderings early on a Saturday morning....
Date: 6/14/2003
Time: 6:46:37 AM
Someone alluded to the Augustinian explanation of the Trinity as the Lover, the Beloved, and the Love relationship. This appears in many guises in various theologies.
I've always felt that this really leaves us with a binity, not a trinity. It depersonalizes and does not take seriously the Holy Spirit as another way in which we experience God. I'm not sure I have a really good explanation for the Trinity, either, but I think we should be cautious about the Augustinian model. -- Mike in Maryland
Date: 6/14/2003
Time: 8:30:40 AM
It dawned on me early this morning that we can't preach on this day, Trinity Sunday, without reflecting on our experience of the risen Christ and the gift of the Holy Spirit. Indeed, like Isaiah, we have been in the presence of God's power and goodness, and like Nicodemus, we have seen the Father's ultimate gift of himself in giving us his Son. How has this changed us? Are we any different from our encounter? Have we opened ourselves to grace, or are we still living under the law of our own nature?
tom in ga
Date: 6/14/2003
Time: 8:59:13 AM
In the words of the great Cathrine Khulman:"God dosen't wand golden vessels or silver vessels he wants yielded vessels. Off the subject. My friend Jim will be preaching his very first sermon at his very first church this Sunday. He will start the canadicy porgram soon. He will be serving as a lay pastor. please pray for Jim tomorrow.
Harold in Alabama
Date: 6/14/2003
Time: 12:11:21 PM
Some of our congregation have been asking, "How do you know you have been ‘born again’ as Jesus said.”
I'm going to preach on that. I'm going to use my experiences as a father waiting and watching for my children to be born. I will be talking about sin, repentance, and salvation. Anybody suggest how I can link the Trinity in with this?
Thanks, Albion, IN
Date: 6/14/2003
Time: 12:24:06 PM
Tom in Ontario -
Thanks; the same thought had crossed my mind when I used the illustration. It's one of the drawbacks of object lessons for children, who tend to be much more literal-midned.
As to the Augustinian def'n, what, unless we include much-later Tillich's "love itself, ground of being," is any less function-defined than any other "definition?" God is beyond how God functions in our lives, but that is all we have to go on, PROVIDED we understand that God is much more. Nonetheless, how God functions in our lives is how we know God - and the point at which we have our lectionary Gospel.
sally in GA
Date: 6/14/2003
Time: 12:49:49 PM
I'm starting a series on "core values vs. cultural norms (or customs)." This does well for "core values," and I'm not going to dwell on the Trinity other than to celebrate how God is beyond our comprehension (customs are quite easily humanly understood, and why folks tend to prefer them). Eric and KGB had been discussing the church's followers/doctrines. Is doctrine not custom? Something generally culturally understood or mis-understood or dis-understood? The core value is that God sent his Son to save, not condemn, and that it is God's action that does that - regardless of whether we understand it or translate it into human terms.
I have a church whose idea of "worship style" is to sit there and watch me!!! I'm concerned more with INJECTING LIFE into folks than I am with Augustine. I have a church who's more concerned with following policies they set when the church began in the 1960's than with pouring out their love for the living God. I'm less concerned with doctrine details than I am with whether God in Three Persons is active in anyone's life! I have a white flight church whose congregation is aging in an area of mostly younger African American families. I'm less concerned with what the true nature of God is than whether God's nature is evidenced by our love.
While a case can be made that we must first understand the doctrines of the true nature of God before we live it out, that's not the case with Nicodemus. You'll notice Nicodemus never gets it - we never even get to know whether he really did become born again. Maybe therein lies the true nature of God - we just don't get it. Did Nicodemus ever live it out, or understand it? We just don't know.
I'm on a bit of a tirade, I suppose. I don't have a lot of patience for head-talk when very real people have very real problems.
Yes, we can live out God's love simply by trusting that God is bigger and beyond all things.
Next, my rainbow story.
Sally
Date: 6/14/2003
Time: 12:55:32 PM
I was caught with my daughters in a hail storm while driving home from my older girl's piano lesson one day in 98, a Spring where there were a lot of tornadoes.
We pulled over under a funeral home awning (you know the place where you drive up under?) and pounded on the door, but no one was home. We heard that there was a tornado spotted nearby and we were urged to take cover. Knowing being in the car was the WORST place to be, I got my baby out and my older girl out and huddled in a corner out of the wind with them. I'd tried to get these two women out of another car that had pulled up, but they pretended like they didn't even hear me. What did they think I was going to do, with a baby in my arms and a little girl by my side?
Anyways, we huddled, and the storm passed. Meantime, other cars pulled up, and the tornado went away. We came from our various huddling places and saw THREE - YES, THREE - rainbows side-by-side.
What kind of doctrine describes that?
Sally
Date: 6/14/2003
Time: 1:53:40 PM
None, Sally! That sort of thing is beyond ... way beyond! ... doctrine.
Blessings, Eric in OH
Date: 6/14/2003
Time: 3:13:35 PM
I stopped back by, in the middle of my sermonizing to check to see if I really was as hateful as I was afraid I came across the last time I came here. Frankly, I can't tell, but I was pretty frustrated at the time. I'm a very practical-minded person. If anyone heard me as offesive, I apologize. don't know what else to say.
I'm using the blue neon sign on a steeple of a Baptist Church in South Atlanta, that's visible by the main freeway going through town. The sign says, "Jesus Saves." The longer I look at that tacky blue sign, the better I like it. Anyone who passes by that church after dark on the 75/85 Connector has come to Christ by night. And tacky or not, they're actually SAYING SOMETHING. And, rather than being an illustration, it's something anyone from Atlanta can relate to. It's impossible for anyone able to drive within the last 20 years NOT to have seen the sign.
Wouldn't you have loved to be a fly on the wall at the meeting where the person said, "Hey, y'all, the Holy Spirit told me to put up a blue neon sign on our steeple that says 'Jesus Saves.'"
I'm also using the Afro American spiritual (the musical genre is called Negro Spiritual) "Witness" as a backdrop (going to play a recording I have of it as an intro) b/c it talks about nicodemus and witnessing. Yet, I really wish I could be a tasteful witness in a tasteful church.
Martin Luther called Jn 3:16 "the gospel in miniature." And, this being the Sunday before St Wesley's (haha) 300th birthday, it's entirely appropriate to talk about growing in love as our core value.
I can't believe I'm still working on this at 6:20 on a Saturday! We got back from vacation on Tuesday evening - plenty of time to work on a sermon.
Sally
Date: 6/14/2003
Time: 4:08:28 PM
Sally,
Actually, isn't it Nicodemus (or only tradition that names him so) the one who helped to anoint the body of Jesus, at a time when others didn't step forward? When the chips were down, it appears that we DO know the end of that story ...
m in pa
Date: 6/15/2003
Time: 5:22:08 AM
the Pastor formerly know as Eric in KS<g> 10-4 on the bumper sticker. I'm not quite bold enough to use it either. Also, thanks for the links. Pastor Rick in FL
Date: 3/7/2004
Time: 3:09:01 AM
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