eternal life is defined in v.3. as knowing God and Jesus Christ who is sent by God (or that Jesus Christ is sent by God?). is the meaning of the term that we usually attach to it? sue
How the heck does one preach on a prayer? This seems rediculous to me that this is the passage for this week. Kelly in Alberta
Dear Kelly,
I agree it's sometimes difficult to preach on part of a prayer, but I don't think it's ridiculous to know we are included in the ones Jesus prayed for ("I'm asking on their behalf...on behalf of those whom you gave me, because they are yours," v.9), do you?
During the tough times of life, it's good to know Jesus has interceded for us - and that he continues to do so. It's good to be able to remind our congregations about that, too.
Grace and Peace, Jerry in MN
Are there any trekkies out there who can tell us about "Beam me up, Scotty" and what it meant to believe in the power of that technology? Thanks. Anne in Providence
Kelly in Alberta I have decided to preach on the Ascension of the Lord text for this Sunday, held over from May 13 to Sunday. Looks like it will preach better. revup
Ah, the Prayer of the Great Shepherd for 'Unity.'
Those in the ecumenical movement continue to struggle to find an answer to this prayer of Jesus; congregations continue to seek ways to mend the brokenness within the Body of Christ. Married couples find it harder and harder to stay to gether. "One-ness" is almost beyond reach. It seems the more we search for it the harder it is to find. It is so illusive, like happiness. I think it was Henri Nouwen (somewhere in the mass of books) speaks of our relationship with God and others like an old wagon wheel: The closer be come to the center (Christ) the closer we come to one another. How do we listen, how do we let go of our puffed up or wounded EGOS, how do we simply listen and accept one another. We live in the midst of a spiritual crisis. Any one issue will tear us a part.
We need to become people once again of Word and Sacrament, of simplicity and faith, and yet we have lost our faith in God, and given prudence the upper hand. How do we listen to this prayer, how does it become mine, how do I truly beocme a member of the Body of Christ?
tom in ga
Kelly in ALberta,
It seems to me that rest and recreation are in order.
Verse three alone would be fodder for many a sermon.
Why not use Christ's prayer as an example and pray that the Holy Spirit would grant you insight as to how you might preach this prayer?
Or take the weekend off and hand over the reins to someone who has that insight.
You (we) need an infilling of God's Holy Spirit to pray this or any passage of Scripture.
I believe that insight is there for the asking.
Ask!
Rick in Va
Kelly in Alberta,
I understand what you mean! Like revup, I am seriously considering using the Ascension text instead. The only thing that immediately comes to mind for me with regards to this text is that our congregation may need to hear a word about Christ's desire for unity among his followers. Ours is a rapidly growing community, and our church is growing rapidly, too. The "old-timers" resent the "newcomers," the "newcomers" don't like the way the "old-timers" do things, etc. When I came here five years ago it was the most welcoming congregation I'd ever seen. But now, with no place to sit some Sundays, and with no classrooms available to start new classes, and so forth, their attitude has undergone a subtle change. I know, overcrowding is a great "problem" to have, and we'll grow through it, but at the same time, it's frustrating. So, I'm tempted to beat them over the head with the unity prayer. But I think I'll just do the Luke passage from Ascension Day!
Paul of SC
Oh, and by the way, Kelly, I suspect your wrangling with the text is probably a sign that you are a sensitive, caring preacher, rather than that you "need a vacation."
Paul of SC
The dynamics of the presence and absence of God is grounded in the ascension, (as Christ returns to the Father, with whom he was one before creation). This prayer is not unlike Luke's story of ascension in this respect of God who comes to us in our common place and yet whose victory for all eternity (kairos) involves the mystery of his absence (leaving) as surely as his presence (comong). In our relation with God, do we not experience growth through stages of faith when God appears and also disappears? The disappearance or absence or leaving of us may be so pain-filled, like the forces of death fear and sorrow, that we become "static", frozen, in faith development and cling to God, not letting go, and thus remain in a more immature frame and focus, not moving to a higher rung of faith while resisting the "unknown-ness" in the future spiritual journey. The ascension of Christ, like the story of Elijah, may be the challenge for us as disciples/apostles to grow to a higher rung of faith by picking up the "mantle of righteousness" and venturing into the unknown future of our planet earth, bringing in the Kingdom by ministering to the world that God so loved, and as Nail-bender and others have so often disclosed, in ministering to the Christ who is in the "hungry, naked, sick, imprisoned, etc.". One of the "rungs of faith", (Martin Buber), says that there is one time when it is appropriate to "act as if there were no God"...that is, when you see your neighbor in need! The ascension of Christ going to the Father, i.e., his leaving, may not only be about the empowering of us to do his work in urshering in the Kingdom as indicated in Buber's parable, but his leaving or absence may also have to do with our differeniated stage of growth, our becoming independent, autonomous, and "free for" others. The ascension of Christ and the coming of the Holy Spirit are interconnected. The emergence of the Covenant people as the Body of Christ engaging us to continue the work of Christ, I believe, is connected to both the ascension story and to the unity prayer of John 17., (the essence of which is our mystical union and one-ness with God even in his absence).PaideiaSCO@aol.com
I sometimes find it difficult to preach long passages from John, be they prayer or not. Contemporary congregations/audience (and I think that includes us) don't always have the patience to sort through twists and turns and repetitions in speech as we listen. YOu know, the TV generation and all. And yet, perhaps this is a chance to tease out the essence of what is being said and to offer this hope-filled, life affirming message. For my part, my mother's day sermon struggle has left me weary so I'm finding the text from this week's lection in Acts where I'm being drawn. We'll see as the week progresses. My prayers are with you all -- as together we struggle and moan and groan and rejoice to live into this calling of God. Thanks for being my cyber-church. You are all important to me. Love & Peace -- RevAmy
I have to admit that I am angry tonight after seeing the Buddhist monks, the Christians and Muslim followers lined up for show by the government in Beijing to protest the bombing of the Chinese embasy in Kosovo. Even the secular media knew it was a sham - one commentator noted that the Chinese government typically represses "religion". How does it glorifiy God to let Christian faith become a puppet of idealogues? Certainly our purpose is not to glorify any system of government; and sopmetimes being in the world means standing over against actions of government -American or Chinese. Anyone know any good Walter Brueggeman quotes here/ Or a hook to the lections? (Ok, so I'm looking for a hook; but with good intent.) Pam in TPA
glorification ....
John 17 is always a bit frightening. Do we fully understand this term: Doe it real mean praise, or does it mean suffering. I would appreciate a greek scholars thoughts on this word and its meaning within this passage. Thanks
tom in ga
glorification ....
John 17 is always a bit frightening. Do we fully understand this term: Doe it real mean praise, or does it mean suffering. I would appreciate a greek scholars thoughts on this word and its meaning within this passage. Thanks
tom in ga
Tom in Ga: This is not so much from the Greek but from knowledge of the theology of the Gospel of John. In the gospel of John, glorification is inseperable from suffering. At Cana, Jesus says "My hour has not yet come." In the conversation with Nicodemus in John 3, "just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wildernes, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life." Now, in John 17:1 "the hour has come, glorify your Son so that your Son may glorify you." For John the crucifixion is the glorification. For John, Jesus is always in control, allowing this to be done to him, to advance his Father's purpose. And John 21:19, "{He [Jesus] said this to indicate the kind of death by whoch he [Peter] would glorify God.) Hope this helps, R. J. in ND
There is so much of my life in which I am called to be the shepherd, to lead, direct, comfort, admonish, listen and listen. Yet at times I get tired. My energy gets low. My shepherding gets less than effective, less than genuine.
In addition, there are times such as these, wars and high school killings and storms so violent that I begin to feel quite helpless. Helpless people do not trust very well. Untrusting people do not know unity.
In times like these, it is helpful for me to remember that there is another shepherd, a good shepherd, who gives life abundant. When he is glorified and lifted up, I remember that I do not have to be God. What a comfort!
This is one of those texts that reminds me that I am the object and not the subject. I am a sheep in need of a shepherd, a shepherd who knows just what I need. His prayers for me and my brothers and sisters are comforting. When the Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want.
Fred in LA
Friends -
Just a quick note. If you are planning for Pentecost there is a cool little skit at http://bmts.com/~gladwell/Pent.htm Use in Christian worship where no fee is charged is permitted, as long as the authors are identified.
HW in HI
Over against the historical failure of the church to maintain its unity there is the very extensive scriptural evidence that God wills the unity of all His people. Christ prayed earnestly for it. Early church leaders taught it and worked for it. Even the ancient psalmist expressed the beauty of God's intentional harmony among His people. (Ps. 133)
There are many warnings in the NT against division, strife and discord. (Gal. 5:19-21; 1 Cor. 12:24f; Rom. 16:17f) But beyond these there is a clear declaration about the basis of unity that is advocated. It is not mere human unity that the inspired writers are talking about; it is unity in Christ. (Gal. 3:26ff; Eph. 4:4ff) Such a unity follows precisely the deep desire expressed by Jesus shortly before His death.
The implications of this are many. First, the unity of all Christians is not just a goal to be sought; it is a given fact to be recognized and practiced. To be one with Christ is to be one with all others who are one with Him. (Rom 12:4f) The result of such relationships is a living community functioning in harmony with itself. The basic quality that makes this possible is love. (1 Pet. 3:8; Col 3:14ff)
Another very significant implication of this unity in Christ is that it overrides all the barriers that human society has erected that separates people from one another. God's redeeming love is not limited to a single group. It is His intention that all people who respond to His Word should be one flock. (Jn. 10:16; 1 Cor. 12:12f; Gal. 3:26ff)
There really is no end to the catalog of cultural and social obstructions to fellowship and unity that are surmounted in Christ. Even the avoidance of the many preachers who would rather "take a vacation" than tackle the tough issues concerning the restoration of unity in God's church. Come on, now! Is anyone out there committed to the vision of a full restoration of the oneness of God's church with biblical truth as its only creed and holiness as its most evident characteristic? As for me, I join the many who call the whole church to judgment reagrding its divided state, who lift up the scriptural standard of Christian unity, and who exhibit in its own existence the reality of a visible worldwide fellowship in which the only criterion for membership is testimony that one is a redeemed child of God. What about you? your church? How do you respond to Jesus' prayer, " ... that they may be one, as we are one."?
Peace, OKBob
RJ in ND
Thank you for your biblical reflection on "glorification" I think you are right. I guess my problem is -- "Does this mean that those who follow Christ are to find joy in suffering? Or does it mean that because of the glorification of Christ we no longer suffer? I have been doing a study on masochism and sadism (separately from this) and having a hard time reconciling (now) the theological and psychological! Perhaps we can't. Yet to believe in a sadist god who makes masochists out of his followers is a terrifying thought. How do we suffer, theologically, without being masochists? O well, you see how confusing all this is for me at the moment. Can you help?
tom in ga
One way of looking at the "oneness" Jesus has with the Father is that it is a oneness of focus, of purpose, of will... regardless of mystical and theological stuff about the Trinity. It seems that the only way we will ever find unity is to first realize that unity of focus and/or direction is really about the only thing for which we can hope. If you've ever been in a prayer circle composed of Republicans and Democrats, young and old, male and female, black and white, Catholic and Protestant, during which time, everyone prayed together, then you've experienced a small taste of the oneness Jesus was praying about. I've been in such a prayer circle, and it was exciting and unifying indeed!
That only way to have Christian unity is to be united in a common focus on the person of Christ and in seeking to do the will of God. We can have different ideas, even conflicting ideas and still be "one" in Christ - as long as we put Him ahead of our ideas. We can worship by shouting or worship in silence and still be "one" in Christ - as long as we worship. We can try to get people to be "born again" or we can raise baptized children in the church - as long as we focus on our need for Christ.
...just some thoughts. What do you all think?
DN and AZ
With this scripture, I'm thinking the situation is as important as what Jesus actually says. He is about to leave the disciples. Instead of giving them last minute instructions and making a fuss about what they should and should not do in his absence, he prays to God. Jesus lets them and us in on the conversation. He doesn't give detailed instructions on how to achieve unity--perhaps because the whole point of the prayer is to show that all doesn't depend on what we do. The future belong's to God.
Tom in GA- In regards to your May 8 post, "You go, boy!!" +The Searcher
I am surprised that no one has even attempted to deal with the very first submission by sue regarding the definition of eternal life. This immediately stood out to me as the surprising kernal of this passage. Eternal life we usually associate with the life hereafter, but Jesus makes clear here that it has more to do with our life in God here an now. This is radical! Eternal life begins with our relationship with God in Christ. What a powerful evangelistic concept.
Anyone know the Greek of this verse?
Don in NC
Tom in Ga - wow- and thanks so much for your comments. i really liked the image of the wheel. i have to admit, as important as lifting up Christian unity is to me and as often as we lift it up at the Communion table, i chose to preach on Acts 1:6-14 this week, because of the devoting themselves to prayer. i really want to lift up praying before Pentecost Sunday, and have a prayer vigil planned during the week. it just seems incredibly important to me right now. and i think may put more emphasis on Pentecost.
blessings, rachel
Twice Jesus refers to those that God has given him, as over and against those of the world. How have we been given to Jesus? I can only answer for myself. The joy within me must have been planted by God, even as I was "forming in my mother's womb". That joy awoke when I recognized God in Christ, that is, God with a human, caring face. Here we see Jesus praying for all of us. His prayer creates all the unity in the world, when we come to realize how wonderful a thing it is to be loved by God. Nor is there any limit to the power that comes from feeling this love. We can even help God bring his Kingdom to earth...
A God who prays for us. A God who has found us by virtue of our willingness to love.
This could be a very cool text to preach on--very affirming to those who need to see how much they are loved by God,,,and who doesn't??
God bless you all,, Rene
Just a couple of reflections on unity. Jesus prays for it -- it must be a gift of God. We cannot create it or "work it up" we can only celebrate it as we do all gifts of God. It is something which exists as a result of our sharing in Jesus Christ, but living it -- ah, there's the rub! --Rod in Pixley
To follow up on the theme presented by DN and AZ and others of Jesus as the lens through which unity (compassion) is a achieved, here is a story based on an American folktale, from the book, Stories for the Journey, by William R. White.
A farmer was working in his field when a stranger approached him. The traveler asked, "What kind of people live in the next town?"
Without pausing from his work, the farmer replied, "What kind of people lived in the town you just left?"
"They were horrible," the traveler said waiving his hand for emphasis. "People were dishonest, selfish, and inconsiderate."
Looking up, the farmer shook his head, "I'm sorry to say that's probably what you'll find in this town, too."
Late in the same day another man happened down the same road. When he saw the farmer, he called out, "What kind of people live in the next town?"
Without looking up the farmer returned with a question, "What kind of people lived in the town you just left?"
"They were thoughtful, friendly and kind," the traveler beamed. "I hated to leave them."
The farmer put down his hoe, extended his hand and smiled. "I'm pleased to say that is about how you will find the folks here."
The traveler returned the smile, shook the farmer's hand and headed for his new home.
XXX
The metaphor could be shaped any way you like, but I might compare the town to the "city of God", going back to my previous consideration that somehow God has given some to Christ. The story also looks like it would knit well with the wagon wheel image from Tom in Ga.
Thanks for all the Scriptural references, OKBob.
RevAmy, thanks for helping us to remain a "cyber-church."
God bless you all once more, Rene (in Bluff Point, but soon to be in Avoca)
This text is the end of a rather lengthy "dinner" conversation Jesus has been having with his disciples. They've finished dinner, he has washed their feet, Judas has left and now he (for the last two weeks I think - sorta like soap operas taking so long for a person to get from one point to another) has been giving them last minute instructions - rather like a Last Will and Testament. Here is what I am leaving you. Here is what you should do in case of....at one point he says "let us be up and leaving - you can almost picture the disciples starting to get up but he keeps on talking -- he keeps saying over and over how much he loves them and how he hopes they will love each other -- then he ends with a prayer -- for himself and them.
Reminds me of parents sending an almost grown child off to college. Tried to give the young person all they will need to know in order to survive. Has loved them - and can only pray for themselves (we'll miss you son/daughter - our lives will be emptier without you around) and for the person (we'll be thinking of you every day and praying that you will make the right decisions for you and for others. It would be wonderful to stay at home and always have the "authority" figure there to turn to for directions but we all have to leave in order to grow (whether we go to college or out into the world to work). If we didn't leave we'd always be relying on someone else to give us the answers without having to struggle/wrestle/think/discern ourselves.
Or we could think of what is like to be in an intensive course with a marvelous instructor - someone who has given us new insight - new ways of looking at life - and now it is time for us to graduate or for that person to go on to the next class -- we have to be on our own so we can learn to use what we have been given.
Seems like this has happened before: God creates the world - tells the humans how to take care of it, what to do and then leaves them on their own. Since they apparently didn't do too well, God comes back among the humans again - for a longer period of instruction - and role modeling - and giving -- and then leaves again.
If Jesus had not left -- what would not have happened? If the disciples had remained with their faces looking upward - would they have stumbled because they couldn't see the problems of the world at their feet?
In the eucharist on Sundays we pray as Jesus did for his disciples - that we will be sanctified and made holy so that we might become Christ's body in the world - to use the wisdom and the words, to do the works to bring into reality the Realm of God.
gc in NYc
Thoughts on unity - it is not like-mindedness, nor does it ask that we all be homogenized into one bland flavour - just came from a conference in Washington where 5 or 6 denominations gathered together to learn about each other and about preaching and about being church in the late 1990's - different theologies, different experiences, even different accents, all were part of the charm and challenge - and yes, we got into the tough stuff, like ordination of homosexuals - now there's a topic guaranteed to divide - but we all ended up at table together, laughing, ministering, sharing -
the breadth of our embrace is what gives unity to our hearts, and to our church - the ability for opposite sides of a debate to see each other first as human, caring, and willing to be faithful - the humility to understand that not one of us has a lock on truth, or the right to domesticate God into a comfy 'always agrees with me' deity - these things, to me, would be the basic ingredients of unity - not a bad prayer.
Canada
Tom in Ga: I suppose it comes down to what we seek first. Jesus tells his disciples to first seek the Kingdom of God (Mt 6:33) and all these things shall be added. [If you prefer to understand kingdom of God as realm or reign of God, that is fine.) Some sought their own salvation first, not the kingdom, giving their bodies to be burnt, (1Cor 13:3), to gain heaven by their martyrdom, yet because it was without love, it meant nothing. Some seek the benefits of the kingdom, but not the kingdom itself. If we seek love, but never a love that risks heartbreak, what do we have really? Classically, sadism and masochism relate not so much to loving, as to sexual gratification. So, the sadist achieves gratification by dominating others, exercising control, and inflicting pain. The masochist achieves gratificaiton by submitting to others, surrendering control, and receiving pain. {I will admit some of the legends of the saints, like Sebastian, who though pierced through with arrows and left for dead, revives, and presents himself once more to the persecutors. {Do you suppose that is the origin of martyr complex? ;)))
If we do seek the kingdom first, then suffering and pain will likely come our way. We will have to make choices between one good and another good. We will have to give up some things that are significant to us. Others may try to correct us, to make us what we were before, and so make us make painful choices, or even inflict pain to correct us. Yet others have invested their lives in making themselves king, and no more than Herod did (Mt 2) do they welcome those who seek the new, eternal king.
I fully believe that Jesus did not seek crucifixion and suffering as such, or even as deliberate means to a goal. I believe he sought to inaugurate the kingdom of God, and was willing to do what was needed to accomplish that. I believe that God is not a sadist, inflicting pain for no purpose other than his own gratification. Rather pain comes as we separate from that which is not God's kingdom to enter the new creation. Somehow, there are pangs conncectd with our birth, at the beginning of our earthly lives, and often with our birth into heaven at the end of our earthly lives. Nor do I believe that to be a Christian means being a masochist. Rather we are filled with love for God and neighbor, willing to do and endure whatever is needed to make that a reality.
Hope this helps, R.J. in ND
Tom in Ga: Additionally, both the sadist and masochist are (at least until treated) fixed in their sources of gratification. Christians are not. We can weep with those who weep, rejoice with those who rejoices, etc. R.J. in ND
If anybody is still working on their sermon, maybe you can help me. I am focusing on first how Jesus defines eternal life: "That they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent" (vs 3). Maybe tie that to how Jesus deals with eternal life in other parts of the Gospels, specifically in Matthew 19 when the rich young man asks Jesus what must he do to inherit eternal life. And Jesus lists things to be done in this life "Obey the commandments" (19:17) and "go sell your possessions and give to the poor" (19:21). So eternal life is realized in this life because Jesus defines it basically as knowing the true God. Now that knowing is what is confusing me because of what I read in "Texts for Preaching" by Brueggemann, et al. It says, "the verb know in the fourth gospel carries the notion of something more than intellectual acceptance, something different from mystical meditation. It does not imply a solution to all the intricacies of Trinitarian theology nor does it mean that the knower is transformed into a model of piety. Rather, knowing God means being related to a revelation that has happened in history, confessing a person named Jesus, crucified and risen, as Son of God. Knowing God entails obeying the commandments of God, and espiecially the new commandment to live in a loving relationship with other "knowers" of God" (pg 326). So if I understand this correctly, it is not an intellectual only kind of knowing, it is a knowing in our hearts as well. Really believing it so that we act on it. Then I think I want to end up talking about how we are a community which Jesus prays for. Anyway, I hope I can flesh this out before too many hours. Jennifer in Mississippi
Jennifer, I think this "knowing" is more aptly named in the Spanish verb, "conocer", which implies a knowing that derives from intimate blending, as when you spend time in a place and it becomes part of who you are, and part of how you see and feel and treat others.
I can not help but return to our experience of God's love for us as the ground of this "knowing", thus placing us at the receiving end of a mighty good thing. This orientation fits with the act of Jesus praying (and living and teaching and dying)for us.
Sorry to get back to you so late, but I went to the drag races tonight and watched my son blow away the shiny cameros with his old rusty station-wagon. They did not "know" that he had a tank of nitris-oxide hooked up to his carberator.
My kids have a saying. "Now you know, and knowing's half the battle".
God keep you strong in Christ,
Rene in Bluff Point (NY)
Dear Friends,
Thanks for all the comments this week. I have been away for a week of reading, resting and relaxating, Rick will be happy to know. Gee, you need not take the frustration in voice so seriously, can't a girl panic every now and then without causing such a fuss?!
I feel that I should preach on this passage as the Ascension is kind of weak compared to what is coming next week at Pentacost. I have been reading Tom Harpur's Prayer, the Hidden Fire. It is him opinion that the unity is not with other Christians but with God and this is the ultimate purpose of prayer, to be one with God. Note that last verse: "that they may be one, as we are one." (We meaning Jesus and God.) We too, can reach such initimacy with God as Jesus did, through prayer.
Sorry, I forgot to sign, Kelly in Alberta