in the Garden of eden there was 2 trees tree of life , and the tree of Knolage of good and evil the tree of life is Jesus Christ, the tree of Knolage of good and evilis Adam himself having talked with God/Jesus in the coolof the day John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God. John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. the serpent was Adam carnaley speaking to Eve (O.K. he lied to her)got her to beleave if they had children they whould be as Gods Knowing good and evil YES SEX was the act, the SIN was Disobeying Gods commandments How do we knowit was sex= Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made loincloths for themselves. they covered the parts they sined with. Mike Fiolle Minister
in the Garden of eden there was 2 trees, tree of life , and the tree of Knolage of good and evil the tree of life is Jesus Christ, the tree of Knolage of good and evilis Adam himself having talked with God/Jesus in the coolof the day John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God. John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. the serpent was Adam carnaley speaking to Eve (O.K. he lied to her)got her to beleave if they had children they whould be as Gods Knowing good and evil YES SEX was the act, the SIN was Disobeying Gods commandments How do we knowit was sex= Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made loincloths for themselves. they covered the parts they sined with. Mike Fiolle Minister
In terms of "they covered the parts that they sined with," does this mean that they sinned because they had sex? I raise this question because in Gen. 1:28, God commanded Adam and Eve to "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it..." In order to obey this command, they had to use their covered parts.
Danny in Winnsboro, SC
Apparently, Danny, they were expected to fulfill this mandate asexually.
Rod of Pixley
Greetings from a first time contributor.A colleague recommended this site and I have found helpful insights here and appreciate the collegiality and support offered by many. I am doing a Lenten series on the Old Testament pericopes, emphaisizing the themes of testing and renewal. My preliminary take on the Genesis text leads me to think about hiding from God. Consider how the "first couple" first stitch together those "figs of the loom" to hide their nakedness and then dive for cover when God strolls through on that "divine daily constitutional":) One contributor suggests that Adam and Eve's sin is "about sex". Had the Divine prohibition been against sex and had Adam and Eve "just said no", where would we be now? It seems to me the real issue is that Adam and Eve reject their being the created. The serpent's "hook" in the sales pitch is "you shall be as gods".We attended a workshop on nonChristian cults yesterday. An article titled "Who speaks for God" published by the American Lutheran Church contains an appendix titled "Criteria for Testing Religious Experience". One dimension reports that non Christian cults teach that "We are saved by being absorbed into God, thus losing our personal identity". By way of contrast, the Gospel affirms that "salvation is a restored relationship between God the Father and (the) created child, in which there remains a sharp difference between the creator and the created". Might it be that Adam and Eve experience that "sharp difference" upon eating the forbidden fruit? Or might it be that the serpent's suggestion to them causes Adam and Eve some angst over that "sharp difference". Might it be that Adam and Eve experience discontent over being "merely creatures"?It seems to me that the act of disobedience comes because Adam and Eve cannot cope with their creaturliness (by extension neither can we). More on the nakedness theme...I heard or read that the Hebrew notion of nakedness goes beyond the pruirient to issues of shame and humiliation. Would Adam and Eve's nakedness hint at some sort of shame over being "exposed" as creature and not creator. Might THEIR response then be one of hiding from God, rather than fleeing TO God? In sum, I read the story of Eden as the tragic account of humanity's rejecting their creaturliness and at the same time running from God and attempting to displace God with something or someone else. Wouldn't the root of sin be more RELATIONAL and less to do with "doing a bad thing"? I would argue that our doing "bad things" or moral failure is a BY product of alienation from God rather than our doing bad things being the cause of alienation.Any guidance or response? Thanks and again, I look forward to being part of the collegiality you have develped here. bc in MT
1). In what sense does this sacred story disclose the birth of consciousness, language, interpretation capacity, and/or the foudations of "knowlrdge", particularly as they invilve how we knowledge and what we know? 2). In what sense does this sacred story disclose the "relational" capacity of human beings, particular the birth of consciousness impacting the relation to the future and the consciousness of "death"? Perhaps no other being/creature has the awareness to "anticipate" death, to know that one moves from birth to death, as mankind! 3). Does not the birth of consciousness, self-awareness, and imagination form the basis for the self relating itself to itself, and in that relation, finding relation with others and nature? 4). Does not the psycho-linguistic capacity, whereby Adam "names" the creatures of creation, grow out of the birth of consciousness, self-awareness, and imagination? The power of language uniquely separates humankind from lower?/other forms of life! Some primitive traditions/cultures do not believe things/objects/creatures exist until they are "named". 5). How do words, or the creative image-making capacity humankind has, go to the central core of our being whereby the "windows of the soul" are formed making it possible to "know" the world, others, self? The frame of orientation at the center of the self, and out of which "meaning-making" emerges, is grounded in the psycho-linguistic capacity. So, how does sexual orientation relate to this? Is Freud's taxonomy of growth adequate? And, if so, how then does "spirituality" fit this theory of human development? 6). Finally, how does this sacred story reveal "faith", and/or faith development, as the foundation of all relational capacity, inculding psycho-linguistic development? Is not Tillich's definition of faith, as well as Heidgger's, relevant to these questioins and this sacred story? PaideiaSCO in delta swampland LA
thought provoking posts thus far... thanks!
Bruggemann says that this text invites us to look at "the gift of innocence and the power of fear" The serpent had no real power but gave a voice to fear (inadequecy over not being like God).
I am also thinking about the balance of creation before the fall, and what God seems to have in mind for humanity...
I too am preaching from the OT during Lent.
Joseph in Charleston, SC
What if Adam had not been silent during Eve's temptation? ...if Adam had refused to "go along"? ...if Eve had not changed the words of God's instructions? ...if.... revd
I would like to point out that you cannot rightly base a belief system or doctrine-teaching on one scripture. The topic here is not sex but a disobedience to God's command not to eat of the fruit I must agree with Danny on this topic. God did not put this story in the Bible to confuse us but to help us to see that disobedience to God in eating the fruit was the sin and not the act of sex. If God didn't want them to have sex then as Danny says why did he give the command to increase in number and subdue the earth. To assume that sex was the disobedience would be like God expecting Adam not to do something that was never made clear he was not permitted to do. The belief that Sex was was the sin is nothing but pure heresy and totally against any other principle laid out in the rest of the Bible.
I would like to point out that you cannot rightly base a belief system or doctrine-teaching on one scripture. The topic here is not sex but a disobedience to God's command not to eat of the fruit I must agree with Danny on this topic. God did not put this story in the Bible to confuse us but to help us to see that disobedience to God in eating the fruit was the sin and not the act of sex. If God didn't want them to have sex then as Danny says why did he give the command to increase in number and subdue the earth. To assume that sex was the disobedience would be like God expecting Adam not to do something that was never made clear he was not permitted to do. The belief that Sex was was the sin is nothing but pure heresy and totally against any other principle laid out in the rest of the Bible. Casey, Fl
Thanks to everyone for all the discussion so far. It's great for it to be Wednesday morning and have a pretty good idea not only about what I'm going to preach about tonight, but also this Sunday. (Please, for those of you who plan months in advance, don't tell me just yet... let me claim this small victory. :-) ) Thanks especially to bc in MT. I like the idea of preaching this passage, especially the 1st Sunday of Lent, about the idea of hiding from God. It seems to me that we have to be able and willing to begin our Lenten journey by facing ourselves and facing God. Recognizing that shame and guilt and blame are not God's mechanisms to keep us in our place, but rather Satan's to keep us from God... It is only when we come out of hiding, that we stand completely exposed before God and before ourselves, that the real healing, reconcilation and repentance/forgiveness can begin. Thanks again. I also like the Bruggeman quote. I'll be checking back. Anymore thoughts or ideas about "Hiding from God"? Blessings -- RevAmy
Has anyone ever heard this one? We used to sing it in choir when I was a teen, some 25 yrs ago now. I am sorry I don't know the author -- it was an Appalachian carol I think. If anyone knows let me know.
"I sat down under its shadow With great delight. And its fruit was sweet to my taste.
The tree of life my soul has seen, Laden with fruit and always green. The trees of nature fruitless be Compared with Christ, the apple tree.
? The ways of the world my soul will toil, Here I will sit and rest awhile. Under the shadow I will be With Jesus Christ, the apple tree."
I can't remember any more... does anyone else? What a different way of looking at the tree in the middle of the garden. The consequence being we must die with Christ to truly live.
Preacherlady
Re: Christ the Apple Tree -- an old issue of Homiletics deals with this concept and some of the history behind it. Anybody know the reference? I'll try to find it if I can. Preacherlady, thanks for the song lyrics.
I'll probably weave all three texts (or at least Gen. & Mt.). Here are some tidbits from my extraordinary (!) lectionary study group:
God's voice DOES stuff: creates, brings life, while serpent's voice contradicts, manipulates, etc. -- all passive.
theme for Gen. & Mt. : shortcuts don't work! (will post more details in Mt. forum)
re: tree of ... Einstein:"Imagination is more important than knowledge."
v. 7 - the eyes of A & E are opened, but not the the same way the serpent promised in v. 4. Instead of finding that they had become like God, they found (like in Emporer's new clothes)that they're naked, vulnerable, exposed.
Perhaps not so much a "fall" story as a "growing up" story.
Kay
I'm enjoying the give and take on this site...I'm reminded of the PBS series on Genesis, hosted by Bill Moyers. In fact, I read the transcripts on "temptation" in preparation for this Sunday. I would commend this reading for any work done on Genesis. (Genesis: A Living Conversation, Bill Moyers. New York: Doubleday 1996). Rev D.'s question about "what if Adam had not gone along with Eve" opens up a couple of more questions about the narrative itself. What if Adam and Eve asked God more about the prohibition against eating from the tree? What if Adam and Eve went to God after the serpent's visit for assurance/clarification or something? Eve reasons out the decision to eat the fruit but doesn't consult God. Adam simply reacts and eats! Might that say something about human nature? Blessings on your preparations and thanks for being there for one another. I'm in a rural area and can't always get to text studies, so this forum is enriching for me. bc in MT
17 FEB 99 Death is at least part of the topic tonight (Ash Wednesday-in the hymns, scriptures and tone of the night). But is death limited to the end of our corporeal, earthly existence? Ha satan said "you will not die..." Was he right? Yes... and no. They're existence didn't end, but it was changed. I like a commend from "AHA!" resource which leads to the conclusion that the idylic, reciprocal relationship died. In short, humanity severed that relationship. And Christ has restored it--that's salvation! Peter in CA
a possible way of using this material in a sermon, would to show how often we are given a garden of Eden possibilities. This garden may be in the form of tools, such as nucular power, or maybe even in the use a computer and internet. Then what do we do with these garden of eden settings. We all too often undo the best by using the worse. I.E., make a bomb with the atom, and because of its destructive force, people are afraid of using if for heating and for industry. The same can be said of the internet and the computer. Here we are using the computer internet to share thoughts about the WORD. Yet in how many homes is the internet being used for unhealthy reasons, sometimes even attacking our children. So I see using this story as a reminder that whenever we are given a tool, or a garden of eden setting, we are responsible to use it wisely, and not for selfish reasons.
Another note: We often refer to Milton's book "Paradise Lost", but the other book, "Paradies REgained" uses the temptation story of Matthew as a counter part to the Genesis story. Milton's idea was that Jesus won our salvation by not falling for the sins of temptations that had corrupted the first Adam. An interesting idea to consider. JDL in Ohio
bc in MT- I'm very intrigued with your idea that our doing bad things is a by-product of alienation from God rather than our bad acts causing our alienation. That idea really makes sense to me. And yet… in terms of the Eden story, does that mean Adam and Eve had some alienation from God BEFORE they eat the fruit (since alienation precedes sinful acts)?
And of course, you make an obvious point I had never seen before-- why didn't Adam and Eve just ask God for clarification or assurance after the chat with the serpent? After all, apparently they walked with God every day in the Garden. How easily they were led astray… one by her reason, the other by his impulse. Thank you.
RevAmy- I too will be preaching on "hiding from God." A friend of mine talks about healing involving both truth and grace. This is from a book called Changes that Heal by Henry Cloud. Truth without grace would have been for God to destroy Adam and Eve for their disobedience. Grace w/o truth would have been for God to pretend that nothing happened. To restore true relationship, there had to be both truth and grace. God always comes to us with both… only we often just want the grace… so we hide too.
Some other thoughts- I am in the UM Disciple Bible Study. When we studied this passage, we were asked a question, "What does the serpent whisper when he whispers to you?" This is a hard question to answer. Particularly since the serpent works with half-truths that we latch onto as true. Interesting to explore and try to answer for ourselves.
The Hebrew for the serpent being "more crafty" is ARUM. Adam and Eve are then described as "naked," ARUMMIM. The NIB suggests the word play implies that humans are at all times naked/exposed to the shrewd or crafty elements of the world. It also says that ironically, their making clothes for themselves revealed more than it concealed!
Kendra
Had a thought about a title for this text: "I've Fallen and I Can't Get Up" The possibilities are endless - our own efforts are not enough to redeem us, to get us up. We need the grace of God to help us up again.
B - Windsor
Techno-wimp that I am, I'm enjoying these on-line discussions immensely! Thanks to all who contribute. Kendra asks an interesting question about Adam and Even's state of being BEFORE the temptation. I've often wondered if Adam and Eve experienced angst or a sense of their "otherness" from the creator. Given the credence we give to the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" prescription, the serpent must have REALLY punched Eve and Adam's "hot button" with the offer to 'be as gods' and to know more. Had ignorance and innocence been unqualified bliss, I suspect Eve would have laughed in the serpent's face. Thanks for the word study on "clever" too! I found that helpful in the whole equasion of our hiding from God, blaming things external to us and our wanting to "cover ourselves" in a multitude of ways. I'm toying with the ways in which we hide from God (using stuff or entertainment to drown out the sound of Divine footfalls in the world and in our lives). The GOOD NEWS in all of this exploration is that God STILL comes looking for us regardless of how ardently we try to hide. bc in MT
Some good stuff! Just two brief thoughts for this evening. First, Kendra said that God comes to us with both grace and truth, but sometimes we only want grace, and so we hide. It has been my experience (personally and in ministry) that sometimes we only want truth -- the cold, hard, I'm a sinner stained black with my sins ... and the grace is awfully hard to take. So we hide. When we accept God's grace, we have to stop beating ourselves up, to move on other unknown areas of growth and challenge instead of staying with the "truth" that we know and are comfortable with, and we have to admit that we can't do it all on our own, we can't save ourselves, we need a Savior -- not just once somewhere out there, but everyday. The second thought has to do with the passage following this segment where God threw Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden. I believe it was somewhere on this site that I read and have been thinking ever since about the idea that perhaps that was divine mercy, not just punishment. Rather than have Adam and Eve live eternally in broken relationship, God allowed them to continue the journey of free choice, of growing and stretching and maturing in faith. I'm not sure if any of that's applicable for anyone's message this week, but I thought I'd throw it out there. Blessings -- RevAmy
"...or you shall die." I find this in reference to the fact that we are dead to sin, dead because of sin. It is by the saving grace of God that we will live eternally with Him. I agree that this has nothing what so ever to do with sex. And to say that Jesus was the serpent is blasphemy in my eyes. I would be very careful about making that kind of statement. Prior to eating the fruit Adam and Eve had not disobeyed God so were not "dead" to sin. Just needed to air that out. thank you and God bless you all! CinTX
I apologize for the last statement. I misread it. I do disagree that it was Adam speaking carnally to Eve. the Bible says that it was the serpent which was more crafty than all the other wild animals. Adam was created by God to be perfect and without sin (originally). So prior to eating the fruit I do not believe Adam would have been the one speaking to Eve and telling her to eat the fruit. Am I off base on this?
Kendra... on the alienation before taking the fruit.. I would agree with that. taking the fruit was the action. What preceded it was a desire to know what God knows/good and evil etc.
I am probably going in the direction of what God seems to intend before the fall, the balance in realtionships between humans, humans and the earth, and a balanced idea of vocation and sense of relationship with GOd.
Joseph in Chas, SC
If you put two say, four-year-olds in a delightful room full of toys and goodies and friendly animals an tell them they can have anything except that big, gooey chocolate cake in the middle, what would you expect the children to do after a while. And if someone comes along and says, "nah, that's not going to hurt you, it's going to turn you into superheroes, how much more likely are they to eat it. Are we to suppose God doesn't know this about human nature?
And as for the serpent, it seems to me it already has a great deal of knowledge about good and evil. Where did that come from? Is the serpent "like God?"
Isn't this a story about how humans came to be the way they are? And aren't the questions more interesting than the answers?
Just a thought. Jane in Lenox
Another thought, in a different direction...
I think it might be helpful to our listeners if we move away from talking too much about what life was like "before the fall," how Adam and Eve might have turned out "if they hadn't sinned," what would be different "if they had gone to God first," etc.
Here I go out on a limb, but I don't need there to have been an actual person named Adam and an actual person named Eve. This is not a story (or at least I don't need it to be an actual story!) about two people who lived a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away. This is MY story! This is your story. This is OUR story.
I'm the one who listens to the voices around me which are luring me away from what my creater wants for me, so the voices can make a buck off me! I'm the one who doesn't go to God to check out what I'm hearing. I'm the one who rationalizes my behaviour to make it somehow OK to do whatever I want. I'm the one who offers the fruit to the ones God has given me as companions and as a spouse, so I'm not alone in my turning away from God. I'm the one who takes what others give me with no questions asked, and not bothering about the results until later. I'm the one who hides the precious gifts God has given me because of shame and humiliation. I'm the one who hides from God when ever I hear footsteps behind me. I'm the one who points my fingers at anyone I can think of, trying to avoid the blame I know in my guts belongs to me. I'm the one who must leave the presence of God, and yet who discovers every day the presence and the care of God surrounding me (see Genesis 3:21). I'm the one who is confronted with a God who loves me in spite of my running and hiding, and who is constantly calling me out of my hiding places, to take new journeys, and discover over and over again the promise given even to me.
As I said, this doesn't have to be a story of two people in history. This story doesn't have to be "factual history." This is MY story. This story declares truth about me, and about all of us.
Rick in Canada, eh?
Has anybody ever worked with the relationship between the Tree of Life and the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil?
And what about Andre Linoge (legion) from Stephen King's "Storm of the Century?" He seemed to have a lot of knowlege of evil.
pHil
Here it is Sat. nite and just reading all this interesting stuff. Thank Jane and Rick for your comments. What is this is a story that is the answer to some question about life. Does a loving God punish people forever just because they disobey (once?) Harold Kushner takes a differing view than that of the traditional story. Rather than this being a story of how sin came into the world, it is the story of humans growing up. How much interpretation of scripture is like playing Jeopardy where we have the answers and have to figure out the correct questions? Maybe Adam and Eve are so bad after all. Just for fun, do you suppose the snake talks with a lisp? Deke of the North.
I am not aiming to contribute anything, but instead I ask a question of some knowledgable Christians. What does the NIB stand for? I would appreciate a response.