Date: 16 Jun 2002
Time: 23:07:15

Comments

Interesting... preaching on this passage and couple it with jeremiah.... Thinking of the Abraham promise and Israel...and Ismael and the Palestinians... Muslims.... tie it with Terror in jeremiah... pastor mary in ohio


Date: 17 Jun 2002
Time: 15:30:39

Comments

I've read this story many times, but this time through,I'm thinking about the angel. Why didn't the angel come to Hagar, but instead, shouted to her from heaven? Was it because she was Egyptian and not Jewish? I picture the celestial dome that the ancient Jews depicted as resting on the mountaintops, and the angel peering through one of the holes in the dome (through a star?). Was the angel meeting her "half-way"? MTSOfan


Date: 19 Jun 2002
Time: 10:20:59

Comments

In her wonderful book, Just a Sister Away, Renita Weems (OT prof at Vanderbuilt Divinity School and ordained elder in the African Methodist Episcopal Church )sees parallels in the story of Hagar and Sarah with that of black slavewomen and white mistresses. She writes: "no race or culture has a monopoly on evil. At some point in its history, virtually every culture has, if not instituted slavery, then profited from the bartering of human flesh." (p. 9) She also points out that it is about more than ethnic differences as it also is about economic stratification. And ultimately it is a story about neither woman, but about Abraham.

"Sarai forgot that in a patriarchal society she and her female slave Hagar had more in common as women than that which divided them as Hebrew mistress and Eyptian slave woman. In fact, the only things which separated the two women were a couple of cattle and some sheepskins (which in today's language translates to a paycheck and a diploma). What bound them as women in Abram's house - their fate as women in a society that seemed to reward only men - also brought them back together." (p. 12)

But we cannot forget the exploitation of one woman by another that sits at the center of the story, for that continues to happen today. The entire story seems to point out the brokenness that exists in so many relationships of all sorts: husband/wife; father/child; mother/child; woman/woman and so on.

Revsophia


Date: 20 Jun 2002
Time: 09:07:37

Comments

I've been paging through Norman Cohen's book "Self, Struggle and Change". He makes a couple interesting observations. One is the comparison of sacrifice stories involving Ishmael and Isaac. In both, Abraham is required to be obedient to God in letting go of his offspring. He finds some comfort with Ishmael, knowing that God has assured him that God will also bless Ishmael with a great nation. The other observation has to do with the complexities of the blended family. How do the half-siblings fare when a new child enters the mix? How does a father treat the children of different relationships? Perhaps this pericope offers an opportunity to explore the struggles of the blended family as well as offers the assurance that God is faithful and that God hears the cries of the outcast child. ERS in SD


Date: 20 Jun 2002
Time: 21:33:03

Comments

Still looking at this passage and can't help putting it with matthew... my liturgist will read the OT Lesson and psalm.... I can allude to it...God took care of hagar and Ismael...whether the angelshouted or made personal contact... Why palestinians claim a homeland too... But for the fact that Angel was afar off... means Ismael's descendants will be cared for...But Issac's are still the chosen... Favoritism... Yes unfortunately it exists...of earth I was thinking about being created in God's image, God is a jealous God- He tells us that #1 Commandment right. and He has favorites? Really? I would rather be a peon in heaven then a princess for the devil though! So what, if the Jews are the Chosen? We are saved by grace...anyway... we say when I get heaven I'll ask Jesus this, I'll talk to moses about this... Honey, when we get to heaven, we will not ask that stuff We will just be so glad to get there and be with Jesus Busy worshipping Jesus... I believe we'll have an awareness of people there, like I'll know Mom dad grandpa is there...but, I will just be happy Worshipping and Praising JESUS!!! Lady Pastor in OH


Date: 21 Jun 2002
Time: 07:30:36

Comments

My sermon topic on this text is "When Life Isn't Fair." Sometimes even when we do everything we are expected to do (like Hagar) we are still not treated fairly. Yet God is still God and God can make all things work together for good. -- Fred in NC


Date: 21 Jun 2002
Time: 08:23:36

Comments

Fred said -- My sermon topic on this text is "When Life Isn't Fair."

When IS it fair?

Blessings, Eric in KS


Date: 21 Jun 2002
Time: 11:31:08

Comments

I think the stage is being set here for Abraham to receive the call to sacrifice Isaac . . . but that probably has more to do with next week's text! It's not apparent to me from this text that Abraham was playing favorites between his two sons. He is very distressed at Sarah's demand. He is torn between the wife he loves and the son he loves. Who's to say what he would have decided to do if God had not intervened. It is really God who sends Hagar and Ishmael away, and we do violence to the text when we try to place any other interpretation on it. You have to ask, "Why did God send Hagar & son away?" Well, it's not because God doesn't care for them, the story bears this out.

In the previous discussion section, DR writes, "Would the Middle East have the problems it has today if Ishmael and Isaac had grown up side-by-side, equally loved?" My question is, how much worse might the situation have become if they had stayed together, under the growing influence of the mothers' growing enmity? My focus is still going to be, however, that God cared for, and still cares for, Ishmael. God separated Ishmael and Isaac, I think, for a reason. Now, I believe it's God's will that they come back together, for God still cares for both. Ken in WV


Date: 21 Jun 2002
Time: 12:00:25

Comments

QUESTION: Were not the Samaritans in the time of Jesus the descendents of Ishmael? I think this is correct and I am in a time crunch. HELP! lp in CO


Date: 21 Jun 2002
Time: 13:25:03

Comments

Bill Mallard from Candler was at our Annual Conference last week and taught on this passage. He talked about Ishmael as the unchosen son. However being unchosen wasn't a rejection by God, but a movement to working in a different way, offering salvation by a different means. Of course this leads to all sorts of questions regarding universality (which Mallard dealt with extensively but I was too tired to take notes).

My focus so far (and yes I am working late to pull this together) is to focus on life in the wilderness, that is, those times when we feel like we have been "unchosen" to wander unto our deaths. How does God offer the promise of great things, streams in the desert, etc.

But then again, there's still time to change.

jay from nashvegas


Date: 21 Jun 2002
Time: 13:30:24

Comments

lp - No, the Samaritans were not / are not Ishmaelites. The Samaritans were a product of intermarriage of the Israelite tribes conquered by the Assyrians and the Assyrians themselves. The Samaritans tried to be neighborly, but were despised by the true Israelites from the south, the Jews.

Blessings, Eric in KS


Date: 21 Jun 2002
Time: 13:42:53

Comments

I don't think the Samaritans were descended from Ishmael -- the woman at the well in John 4 claims Isaac's son, Jacob, as her ancestor; the nation of Israel divided into the northern kingdom and the southern kingdom and becames enemies long after settling into the land; both came from Isaac's line, not Ishmael. On the other hand, God did make a nation of Ishmael's line, too--clearly did not abandon him or his mother. Before and after Abraham was diverted from sacrificing Isaac, Abraham seemed to be living in Beersheba, (21:22-34; 22.19)where Hagar was said to be wandering according to this Sunday's texts. Sarah died in Hebron. Looks like Abraham lived with Hagar after she was cast out instead of with Sarah. The next time he is linked with Sarah, is at her death distant from where he is recorded to have been living. (Gen 23) LaLuz in Texas


Date: 22 Jun 2002
Time: 09:31:15

Comments

LaLuz in Texas and Eric in KS: Yes, now I remember! Thanks for helping me out of my brain warp! Blessings! lp in CO


Date: 22 Jun 2002
Time: 18:12:29

Comments

One thought for those looking for illustrations. This story reminds me of Wanda Holloway, the Houston woman who attempted to hire a hit man to kill her neighbor because the neighbors child was in competition over a cheerleading spot at the Junior High School. It seems that Wanda's father had never let her try out for the cheerleading squad, and when she had a child of her own nothing was going to get in the way of fulfilling her dream through her child. I won't go into all the details (a google search on "Wanda Holloway" will get you to several articles) but the issues of envy and jealousy about the "promises" for kids is interesting.

jv


Date: 22 Jun 2002
Time: 20:26:47

Comments

Late Saturday, Guess you all got your sermons done by now.

We had an outstanding Bible study on this text by Bill Mallard at Annual Conference a couple of weeks ago. His observation was that there were a lot of decisions God wish we hadn't made, but none that would undo God's overall plan of total redemption. He said when Saria demanded of Abram that he dismiss Hagar and Ishmael that God said,"Go ahead, Abram. Do as Saria says. I can work with this. I'll make a nation out of Ishmael, too." That became the repeated mantra as he outlined a number of bad decisions through human history. God continues to say,"Hmm...I can work with this." Jesus becomes the final solution. If it seems God is taking a long time finishing, maybe it is because we keep throwing monkey wrenches in the plan which God has to "work with" to get us all where God wants us, redeemed. I went back to the Genesis lection discussion on 6/9 and some remarks by JG in WI as to what problems Abram encountered because he did not fully comply with God's directives about going to Canaan the first time.

Roughly, I've come up with three points(not my usual style).

1. Because we do not fully trust God but often try to put our own spin on things, we make trouble for ourselves.

2. Touching on the Matthew text about family divisions, I will point out that even when we make good decisions we will face troubles, because of Sin in the world opposing us.

3. So where's the good news? That God is "working with" all the things life shovels on us, and if it ain't over 'til the fat lady sings then, praise God, someday it's going to be good to be fat! Or words to that effect, you know. God bless each preacher and each message tomorrow. tom in TN(USA)