Date: 14 Jul 2002
Time: 11:45:48
I've recently read Bill Easum's book, "Unfreezing Moves." In it, he makes the point that until now, people have regarded physical places as special or holy. But, people who are in the cyber world (as we are right now) are losing that sense of physical space. Being in a "holy place" is becoming less relevant. Perhaps that's not a bad change as we consider that any place we discover God's presence can be holy -- even a chatroom! MTSOfan
Date: 14 Jul 2002
Time: 14:26:09
MTSOfan: The appointed psalm goes right along with your thought -- it makes the point that God is everywhere, there is no where we can go and not be in God's presence.
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 14 Jul 2002
Time: 20:18:22
Just read the children's sermon on this site and it uses Jacob's Ladder song with "new" words. When I sang it as a kid we sang Soldiers of the Cross. Glad someone changed the words.
Date: 14 Jul 2002
Time: 20:18:49
ks in PA
Date: 15 Jul 2002
Time: 08:22:48
Jacob the Liar, Gets a holy dream, What does that mean for us? No matter WHO you Were, God can use you and give you a Holy vision. But, only if you are receptive and recognize it! Pastor Mary in OH and (UNITED FAN) had to say that MTSO
Date: 15 Jul 2002
Time: 09:37:39
July 15, 2002
What caught my attention in reading this passage this time around was Jacob's surprise in encountering the presence of God, "Surely the Lord is in this place, and I did not know it." How aware or unaware of God's presence are we. Jacob's life certainly did not warrant the gift of God's presence, yet it was there all along. Later, as he prepared to meet Esau in Chapter 32, he also unexpectedly encountered God in the middle of the night. Connecting these two passages, centering on the ways in which we encounter God might offer some interesting possibilities.
Tom in TN
Date: 15 Jul 2002
Time: 09:38:16
July 15, 2002
What caught my attention in reading this passage this time around was Jacob's surprise in encountering the presence of God, "Surely the Lord is in this place, and I did not know it." How aware or unaware of God's presence are we. Jacob's life certainly did not warrant the gift of God's presence, yet it was there all along. Later, as he prepared to meet Esau in Chapter 32, he also unexpectedly encountered God in the middle of the night. Connecting these two passages, centering on the ways in which we encounter God might offer some interesting possibilities.
Tom in TN
Date: 15 Jul 2002
Time: 13:42:36
As I've been living with this text, it strikes me that we have as a society completely obliterated God from our dreams. We have so many Jungian and Freudian interpretations for the images in dreams that people either buy into the psychological meanings or they completely ignore their dreams. What if God really is communicating with us regularly - and what if we begin to pay attention to that communication? It certainly does tie in with Psalm 139! Ruth in MA
Date: 15 Jul 2002
Time: 13:42:50
As I've been living with this text, it strikes me that we have as a society completely obliterated God from our dreams. We have so many Jungian and Freudian interpretations for the images in dreams that people either buy into the psychological meanings or they completely ignore their dreams. What if God really is communicating with us regularly - and what if we begin to pay attention to that communication? It certainly does tie in with Psalm 139! Ruth in MA
Date: 15 Jul 2002
Time: 16:41:03
Nice point, Ruth in MA. Today, I was visiting a member in the hospital. He sounded as if he were trying to convince me that God had spoken to him in his sleep. Perhaps he was trying to test the reality of his experience! God experiences transcend science and psychology.
Pastor Mary in OH: United's a good school, too! It's funny -- this is the only place where some people know what my screen name means. Perhaps I am "fully known"! MTSOfan
Date: 15 Jul 2002
Time: 18:56:17
I like the idea of going to church to meet God in that place. I know that God is omnipresent, but to sense the Lord's presence is a powerful thing. I think that I am going to go with the idea of the sanctuary in which we worship the Lord, is one of those special places. However, God is everywhere, and ought to be in our hearts. Places like our sanctuary are special to us b/c we met the Holy Spirit there. We had an intimate meeting with God there. and we tend to memorialize places like that. and if we memorialize places, then we have a tendency to place THEM as holy, and we risk the danger of lifting the place up, and not our God. the place becomes a god, and not our Almighty God.
TF
Date: 16 Jul 2002
Time: 06:07:57
I'm going to be teaching a course in moral theology (Christian ethics) during the coming academic year and am currently reviewing potential text books. Yesterday, I read "Ethics after Easter" by Stephen Holmgren (Cowley Publications 2000). In a chapter on the objective moral content of reality, Holmgren wrote something that seems to me to address Jacob's astonished declaration: "Surely the Lord is in this place--and I did not know it!" He writes:
"[O]ur moral reflection occurs within the context of God's creation, the reality that precedes our consciousness of it. Quite simply, the world was here before we were here to notice it. Though such a statement seems obvious, today we tend to think and act as if the opposite were true. Instead, we approach circumstances and events as if they were the proverbial blank slate awaiting our acts of well and reasoning to give them their order and meaning." (pp. 55-56)
Jacob seems to have approached Luz (Bethel) with this same modern attitude, only to have been surprised to find that the place had a reality and a Presence which preceded him. The Psalm ("where can I go ... ") and the Gospel ("the world is the field") attest that that is true of EVERY place!
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 16 Jul 2002
Time: 06:09:11
Tommy in Tx: Forgive me for not responding to your question on stealing birthrights last week. Right now, my access to the web is limited, so I didn’t read your posting until 7/16 (I’m always curious to see responses to my postings). My church is in the process of buying its own computer, so soon, I hope, I’ll be able to participate in discussions in a more give & take manner. Ken in WV
Date: 16 Jul 2002
Time: 07:38:55
As I read this passage a few weeks ago during my planning time I was suddenly struck by the fact that Jacob was in the process of leaving home when he received his dream. Whatever the circumstances under which we "leave home" we tend to experience mixed emotions about doing so. The fact that Jacob experienced God in the circumstances of his own departure from home is assurance for us that God IS to be found in unexpected places in our lives. As MTSOfan notes, any place we find God can be holy.
I'm thinking this may be a very good theme for my relections this week. At this point, I'm working with a title of "Leaving Home" -- but it's early in my musings yet!
StudentPastor in KS
Date: 16 Jul 2002
Time: 08:38:13
To push the developing thought a bit further- we seem to be saying 'wherever we find God is a holy place'... a deeper message might be to say "Just as God promised, God is everywhere and all places/people/creation is holy."
Jacob, who lies, steals and is clever enough to get away with it all, is holy. Esau, who appears to be hot headed and a bit dull, is holy. Each has their role to play in God's story and each is blessed by God even as they compete and are in conflict with each other. I think we need to remember that this story is, first and foremost, the unfolding of God's promise to Abraham and the stream of that promise, rightly or wrongly, flows through the life of Jacob. He 'owns' the birthright and God is fulfilling the promise.
Jacob's dream is a revealation of God's reality- we are always in the presence of God, we are always standing on holy ground and we are always at Bethel, the house of God... Even if where we are is fleeing a brother's anger, or sleeping outside with only a rock for a pillow, or starting out on our own for the first time.
If home is where the heart is, then I think we can say 'God is where we are."
TB in MN
Date: 16 Jul 2002
Time: 15:17:08
Ruth in MA ..it is my experience that many people can identify "God dreams" but they do not speak about them unless in a trusted place. People will think they are losing it! (of course my former life was as a mental health professional and so I am aware how concerned people are about others perceptions that they are hearing or seeing things. KS in PA
Date: 16 Jul 2002
Time: 19:23:16
I had Earl's prayer service tonight... he was 89 years young...his Great-Grand daughter wrote the following and even read it tonight...
Ashley, a great grand-daughter of Earl who died wrote these words in her diary the day he died (Sunday)... she asked if it was OK to read it tonight, she did and it was GREAT! Here is what she said.... keep in mind... she's 8 years old... the theology is pretty good too, don't you think...
I was going to re-type for the Memorial Service tomottow... decided, since I typed it I might as well share it with you all. Enjoy...
Here is what she said...
The Story about My Grandpa
by Ashley Age 8
My grandpa was a great grandpa - the thing is he tried being that great grandpa. he watched movies with me he had lunch with me but most important thing is he loved me. I slept over there I played there but now I can't do that but what I can do is think about how we loved each other. Every day I went to the hospital. my mom cancled my chello lessons because I wanted to be wth him. When the next baby is born when it grows up I will ask it/ do you know hwo my favorite person was it was grandpa Earl. We were together on the 4th of July, christmas, my Birthday, and the weeks and weekends. When we went to grandma Lowla's grave we put flowers on it and when I go to yours I will do the same thing. Everyone loved you so did I. The cat Bu-Bu (Buba) brought your shirt with her now she nows you'r sprit is with her. You loved church and I loved the bible we were mostly the same and alike so what I'm basicly trying to say is thank you and good-bye.
Ashley Age 8 (I left her spelling just as she wrote it out) ;?)
Good stuff of healing eh? Surely the presence of the Lord was in "that" place tonight...
Blessings,
pulpitt in ND
Date: 17 Jul 2002
Time: 08:23:34
I can't find the updated words to "We are Climbing Jacob's Ladder." Where are they? -Dale in Chattanooga
Date: 17 Jul 2002
Time: 18:42:04
Dale: Are you looking for "We are Dancing Sarah's Circle"? "We are dancing Sarah's Circle, sisters, brothers, all. Here we seek and find our story, sisters, brothers, all. We will all do our own naming, sisters, brothers, all. Every round a generation, sisters, brothers, all. On and on the circle's moving, sisters, brothers, all."
MTSOfan
Date: 17 Jul 2002
Time: 23:46:39
Hi,Birthrites- Amazing how the Lord offers Jacob 8 promises, an dlike Esau, Jacob reduces those promises to food and clothing. "If you give me... then I will know that you are the Lord." How about that for salvation theology, even before Jacb claims the Lord, the Lord has already made promises to him and offered himself to Jacob as his Lord. I am also impressed with all of the angelic vaudville show, but the main attraction is the Lord who stood beside him. Jacob creates a place of worship, here in Bethel. Perhaps in our Sunday morning productions what people most walk away with is a message from the Lord who stood beside them and offered himself in relationship. For this Jacob study I am meditating on Harold Kushner's living a life that matters. He has one title, "What Kind of person do you want to be." That is what Jacob must decide at this point. His encounter is only a glimpse into a realized future, because he contines to trick and supplant even aftr his theophany. Gen
Date: 18 Jul 2002
Time: 05:51:15
This is a rather long post, and I apologize. If you do not have time to read it, feel free to move on. It does, however, relate to the passage.
ome pastor who preceded me at the little church where I serve must have been a Fuller grad. I received the alumni magazine and read a story about building "A Church For Others," rather than ourselves -- "Others" being "those who are either outside or on the margins of faith or the margins of social acceptance." My current church apparently was once very inwardly focused (a country club mentality, but definitely without the means to be such ... and who wants to be?) and at least one family was told they didn't dress well enough to come (who knows how many others felt that spirit). Well, most of the country-clubbers took their money and left a year or so ago. As a result, the church in the Spring moved from being able to support a full-time pastor to needing a part-time pastor (is there any such creature???). I arrived to find a hurt and needy church. And as I have come to hear their stories, a number of them are "Others." As this has worked its way into my heart, I hear Jacob saying, "Surely the Lord is in this place ... and I did not know it!" Surely, as the Psalmist says, God is everywhere. But how many "Others" are churches turning away in action and spirit, not giving them the opportunity to hear the Gospel that can given them eternal life with God?
PastorBuzz in TN
Date: 18 Jul 2002
Time: 06:22:58
I can not find a title by Harold Kushner that is "What Kind of Person do you want to be." He has one "How Good Do We have to be?"....I like your idea but am glad I double checked before I "preached it."
Caroline in MA/USA
Date: 18 Jul 2002
Time: 08:14:36
As I read this passage, I am reminded of the fact that the wandering Israelites carried with them, across the Jordan River and into the Promised land--the presence of 'God in a box'--the Ark of the Covenant. (Joshua 3) Later, Paul reminds us in I Corinthians 3: 16-17 that God's Spririt resides IN THE PEOPLE. We are the temple of God as we have the presence of the Spirit within us.
Why are we surprised when we encounter God, then? Along with talking about the different ways in which we encounter God in the world, I plan to focus on how we can nurture the very presence of God within us! What a awesome thing to think that we can be 'containers for the very living God.'
Michelle in TN
Date: 18 Jul 2002
Time: 08:14:47
As I read this passage, I am reminded of the fact that the wandering Israelites carried with them, across the Jordan River and into the Promised land--the presence of 'God in a box'--the Ark of the Covenant. (Joshua 3) Later, Paul reminds us in I Corinthians 3: 16-17 that God's Spririt resides IN THE PEOPLE. We are the temple of God as we have the presence of the Spirit within us.
Why are we surprised when we encounter God, then? Along with talking about the different ways in which we encounter God in the world, I plan to focus on how we can nurture the very presence of God within us! What a awesome thing to think that we can be 'containers for the very living God.'
Michelle in TN
Date: 18 Jul 2002
Time: 08:15:21
As I read this passage, I am reminded of the fact that the wandering Israelites carried with them, across the Jordan River and into the Promised land--the presence of 'God in a box'--the Ark of the Covenant. (Joshua 3) Later, Paul reminds us in I Corinthians 3: 16-17 that God's Spririt resides IN THE PEOPLE. We are the temple of God as we have the presence of the Spirit within us.
Why are we surprised when we encounter God, then? Along with talking about the different ways in which we encounter God in the world, I plan to focus on how we can nurture the very presence of God within us! What a awesome thing to think that we can be 'containers for the very living God.'
Michelle in TN
Date: 18 Jul 2002
Time: 09:22:54
I added for the sake of continuity, this modified verse to the Sarah circl song. Nancy=Wi
We are clilmbing Jacob's Ladder, we are climbing Jacob's ladder, we are climbing Jacob;s ladder, people of the Cross.
Date: 18 Jul 2002
Time: 09:34:49
Great posts! I did my good soil add the rocks of life last week and it was meaningful to many. This week I am bring back the tub of soil with my embedded rock and talking about the wresling with God that happens as we confront rocks in our lives. Our will vs God will. God is present. Here is children story that works for this scripture. I think well. came in an email with pictures. One evening an old Cherokee told his grandson about a battle taht was going on inside himself. He said, "My son, it is between 2 wolves." One is evil: Anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance , self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiourity, lies, false pride, superiority and ego... The other is good: joy, peace, love hope, serentiy, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion and faith..." The grandson thaougt about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather, "Which wolf wins? The old Cherokee simply replied, " The one I feed."
Date: 18 Jul 2002
Time: 10:26:46
Has anyone else noticed how dense Jacob is? He has this vision of the angels and this conversation with God who says, "Know that I am with you and will keep you wherever you go...." The key word here is "wherever"! But when Jacob wakes up his focus on on "this place" - "Surely the Lord is in this place" - and he sets up the pillar and consecrates and renames the place (new name = House of God).
Now it may be that the place is important because he encountered God there, I'll grant that. But it seems to me that his waking vision is much narrower than his dream vision. The waking self doesn't appreciate that God is "wherever you go" not simply in "this place."
And don't Christians fall into the same trap -- we call our places of worship "House of God" and act as if that is the only place we find God....
The "wherever" will be what I stress in this week's sermon.
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 18 Jul 2002
Time: 13:58:11
I want to deal with the Ladder. Often we think of Jacobs ladder as a means of climbing our way to God. We that from the song, but the idea came long before the song did. I am reading Edward Hay's book "The Ladder", and in one of short pearls of wisdom he observes that ladders work both both ways. Not only do the allow us to climb higher, but they allow us to get down from high places and go about living. When we look at the story, the angels were going both ways. We need to think about not only how do we climb the Ladder of spirituality and be close to God, but how do we climb down off our high horses and live with the people of God. Some times we need to reach for heaven, but most often we need to be working down in the trenches. And we need to have ladders to get down in those trenches. Just some thoughts to share, revjcb in NE
Date: 18 Jul 2002
Time: 18:40:01
I'm going to use Dr. Suess' "How the Grinch Stole Christmas" to illustrate the idea that God's love is unconditional.......just as Cindy Lou's love for the Grinch was.
I know it's kind of lame, but we have an intergenerational worship this week, and I think everyone will resonate with how the Grinch, like Jacob, may not have always been likeable, but in some eyes, he was always lovable.
that moment when the Grinch discovers that despite his nasty ways, he is deeply loved, his heart grows to three times its size (is that right, three times??). I will liken that to the moment when Jacob awakens and remembers God's promise, and recognizes that God's love was all around him, but he just hadn't seen it.
Gosh, maybe we can do a 'Christmas in July' theme....... :)
SueCan
Date: 18 Jul 2002
Time: 20:13:30
A new version of an old song...
"We are climbing Jacob's Beanstalk... "We are climbing Jacob's Bean Stalk... "We are climbing Jacob's Bean Stalk.... Fe fi, fo fi, fum!" ;?)
Sermon title... "Jake and the Beanstalk!"
With grins,
pulpitt in ND
Date: 18 Jul 2002
Time: 21:18:40
I tried to post some prayers if anyone is interested... unfortunately I have no "paragraphs" as it is in one huge paragraph on this site... I wrote them using the "Jake and the Beanstalk" theme... hope they help someone.
Enjoy,
pulpitt in ND
Date: 19 Jul 2002
Time: 08:07:54
Recently, I've been studying a lot of celtic spirituality (when you've got as much Scottish blood in you as I do, you do that sort of thing) The ancient Celts believed that there were "thin places" where the separation between the natural world and the supernatural world is almost non-existent. In my experience, there are places like this. Teotihuacan, which is the ancient Aztec pyramids, is one such place. But interestingly enough, my own thin place that I remember the most is a park across the street from my grandparents house in Amarillo, Texas- not a big park, and the lake in it dried up during the winter- not really all that pretty. But I remember lying in bed at night surrounded by the love of my grandmother and grandad, listenung to the peeper frogs sing. Whenever I felt confused as a teen-ager, I would make my way to Bivins Park I know this is a late request (vacation) but I'm looking for a poem , or maybe it's two. The lines I remember are "the worlds aflame with the glory of God" and "some thought they saw raspberries. revgilmer in Texarkana
Date: 19 Jul 2002
Time: 08:20:12
revgilmer -- As another sort of Celt (of Irish ancestry), I too had thought of the concept of "thin places." My friend Molly Wolf wrote a meditation on thin places and being what she called "a thin-place person" (as opposed to a thin person, which I an struggling to be). You can find her thoughts at http://justus.anglican.org/sabbath-blessings/1999/sb31.html
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 19 Jul 2002
Time: 09:23:42
My Dear Brother Eric
Thank you so much for the link to the essay on thin places. Great stuff.Eeevrrybody on this site, READ THE ESSAY. YOU WON"T REGRET IT!
For those who might be interested, I found the poem I was looking for in the previous discussion section. It's by Elizabeth Barrett Browning
Earth's crammed with heaven
And every common bush afire with God
But only he who sees, takes off his shoes
The rest sit around and pluck blackberries
Blessings to all
revgilmer in texarkana
Date: 19 Jul 2002
Time: 09:36:13
revgilmer ... fascinating ... the poem you quote is from "Aurora Leigh. Book vii." by Elizabeth Barrett Browning. I posted it earlier this week on the gospel discussion page. "Great minds ..." as they say.
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 20 Jul 2002
Time: 11:18:04
Hello all,
Thanks for your comments, especially the Cherokee story, my sermon is finally becoming clear. About thin places (from another with Scots blood) I think there is a book by the UCC pastor at Harvard (I have blanked on his name) and it is about the "thin" places where this world and God intersect. I will try to look up the reference for you. Blessings, KS inPA
Date: 20 Jul 2002
Time: 17:44:56
Eric... revjcb in NE, and others.. I enjoyed your posts... haven't got through all of them yet... still I really like this one...
rector@stfrancis-ks.org
revjcb in NE I like your quote from Hays... thanks... I'll keep reading...
one of the later desperate preachers',
pulpitt in nd :?)
Date: 20 Jul 2002
Time: 17:48:04
revgilmer in Texarkana
Your post brought back similar experiences at my grandparents home in Kansas... I think they were locusts that made a noise that at first was kind of scarey, but once you got used to it, it calmed your spirits even on a hot summers night...
tonight is such a night, whew... it's hot out there...
pulpitt in nd :?)
Date: 03 Aug 2002
Time: 18:10:11
Check out the book "Heaven is in this House" by Bobbie Houston (from Hillsong Church, Sydney)Chapter 13.
Todd in PA
Date: 2/4/2003
Time: 1:26:26 PM
It 'appears' to me that we are travelors and it is unclear which roads we will traverse. We have all places and done things we did not anticiapte. But God always ahead preparing a place for us. Reminds me of someone else. kshaffer@pview.org
Date: 2/4/2003
Time: 1:28:38 PM
It appears to me we have all made trips and travel roads which were strange to us. Who would have suspected we would have gone to and done such things. Yet God is always preparing a place for us even if we do not recognize it as such at first. kshaffer@pview.org