09 Jun 1999
20:03:40

Anyone willing to preach on Abraham's role in this story for Father's Day? I've usually focused on the relationship between Sarah and Haggar. Is the Great Father Abraham really a positive role model in this story? Or is it possible, that God can use even those of us who have weaknesses for God's purposes?

RevJan


10 Jun 1999
08:37:46

According to this passage, Abraham basically sucked as a father--but God came through for Ishmael. No matter what Abraham was or was not (in terms of being a good father), God saved Ishmael.

We may not have had good earthly fathers, but God is the one who is the true father (and mother), no matter what happened in our earthly parental relationships. That relationship can be redeemed. linda


11 Jun 1999
14:22:03

What about preaching the angle of sometimes we have to trust God even when we don't know the outcome? For me, the fact that Abraham could let Ishmael go, even though Abraham didn't know the outcome was a greater show of Abraham's faith in God than when Abraham was asked to sacrifice Isaac. (At least then Abraham thought he knew what the outcome would be -- Abraham knew the reason). Isn't it hardest for us to follow God's specific instructions when we have not idea what the outcome for us or our loved ones might be? And isn't that concept backed up by the Matthew text?


14 Jun 1999
06:32:53

I was tempted to switch this week's pericope with next week's but was intrigued with the comment from the 6/11/99 2p.m. comment about Abraham's trust that Yahweh would take care of his son Ishmael. I am interested now in looking at the whole relationship between Sarah, Hagar, Abraham, Isaac, Ishmael and Yahweh. Reflecting on it this week, I will be looking for the "Daddy moment" in it all.

Shalom

Pasthersyl


14 Jun 1999
10:04:42

How often in my life God has "opened my eyes" to see what was in front of me all along!


14 Jun 1999
10:05:18

How often in my life God has "opened my eyes" to see what was in front of me all along!


14 Jun 1999
18:46:16

The story of Abraham touches my soul when I think of all the fathers who have had broken relationships in the past. The tension of having one women asking to have another removed and the inborn love for the other son is real to me. We do not know what was in Abraham's heart, we can only assume from our own expereinces.

In a book by Patrick M. Arnold ("Wildmen, Wariors and Kings") the author has a chapter on Abraham as a Patriach and Pilgrim. When refering to Ishmael, he notes "Ishmael became a brawler and a raider (Gen 16:12), taking out Abraham's abandonment of him on everybody else"...He goes on to warn all fathers: "Abandon a child and he will always make someone else pay for it." (Pg 94)

The redemptive end to the story is that when Abraham finally dies both Isaac and Ishmael bury him (Gen 25:9)

AWG rocky coast, Me.


14 Jun 1999
18:52:16

As far as Abraham trusting God to take care of the boy, that is a good point. It might be just the opposite of what happened earlier. One could argue that the whole issue with Hagar and the birth of Ishmael arose when Abraham and Sarah did not trust in God, but took matters into their own hands.

JJ in Charleston


15 Jun 1999
07:35:04

I'm also interested in Abraham's role. Abraham is troubled but raises little objection to Sarah's plan. Hagar leads Ishmael into the wilderness to die. Isahmael is rejected by his father. If God does not intervene he will die. Rejection is a powerful word. What does this text say to persons rejected/betayed by loved ones in our society? Where do we find God's care in the midst of jealously and betrayal? How does God intervene in this modern wilderness? Still pondering.....Randy


15 Jun 1999
09:17:00

For a very deepening discussion of this passage, and on the relationships between Sarah, Abraham, Hagar, and the two offspring, read Phyllis Trible's piece on Hagar in her book TEXTS OF TERROR. MJ in NH


15 Jun 1999
17:10:23

This passage, and the Matthew passage, seem rather anti-family - don't they?

Abraham is encouraged by God to abandon his son Ishmael. Abraham becomes an absent father (and he doesn't even pay child support). I like those postings which would lead one to preach against such a thing. But how does one deal with the fact that God tells Abraham to do it? Abraham doesn't want to abandon his son, but God says it's OK.

The whole book of Genesis seems to endorse the dangerous practice of parental favoritism. God likes Abel's sacrifice better than Cain's. Abraham likes Isaac better than Ishmael. Isaac loves Esau better than Jacob, while Rebekah loves Jacob better than Esau. Jacob prefers Joseph over the others. etc. I don't like it, and I can’t help but feel sorry for those poor children (like Ishmael) who are not loved as much as their sibling. But I'm not sure what to do with it from the pulpit since Genesis seems to assume that such a practice is normal and even good. Such a practice, in fact, even seems reflected in God.

The message I'd like to preach is: Men, don't abandon your children - not even if your wife tells you to do it and not even if you believe it's what God want's you to do.

But I don't think it would fly.

DR


16 Jun 1999
03:18:07

So many times we are like Sarah, we are worried about our claim, our rights, our privileges that we lose sight that we worship and claim to be the children of a God who shows mercy and love even to those outside the bounds of our claim, our rights, our privilege.

JJ in Charleston


16 Jun 1999
05:09:42

Yes indeed, sometimes we are like Sarah... we are so focused in our own child that we forget the other child is our responsibility too. Right now around us are many children in need, but we are too focused in our own families, the ones that are like us and look like us and behave like us. The ones that dress diferently and speak with a different accent or have a different legal status does not seems to belong to us. Why should we bother to do anything for them? Someone else should be responsible. However, we miss the point. We are responsible for them too. They are our children too, whether we have adopted them or not. Many times we are like Abraham. We think that giving them a piece of bread and some water is enough. We rationalize that at least we give them something, anyway they are someone elses responsibility. We give them some food in the weekend and we do not think of them in the rest of the week. We think there is nothing we can do for them. If Sarah said we have to get rid of them it does not occur to us, like with Abraham, that maybe they are other ways to handle the situation rather than rejecting and abandoning our children, those who does not look exactly like us. But we have a God who always listen to the cry of his people, and yes, they are his people. And he respond to their cries even when his own disciples behave like Abraham.


16 Jun 1999
11:56:24

Q. What is 'the dance of abandonment?' ... If she were to dance her story, what would Hagar's dance be? ... If Ishmael were to dance his part, what would his dance be? I'm anxious to hear your thoughts. -- fiddler


16 Jun 1999
12:22:57

JJ in Charleston:

Thanks. I want to quote you on Sunday.

D in MIchigan


16 Jun 1999
13:46:10

As I prepare for this sermon, I find that material about the cultural context from which the scripture comes to be crucial to bringing out a deep understanding of the actions of God as the writer presented them. I also find it crucial in noting where the writer(s) of Genesis were possibly not able to transcend their culture in depicting the actions of God. Material about marriage, the institution of slavery at that time, and the roles of men and women in the culture sheds great light on the passage. I am new to this website, and have mostly just been reading the comments for some weeks. Friends, the absence of historical-critical perspectives in illuminating the sacred texts is alarming to me, and I mean this regardless of where one stands on the "liberal-conservative" question. Let's bring, in a lively and engaging way, some of the tools of the scholarly religious community to our congregations, so that all folks can have access to more tools to understand scripture. The community of faith and the academy need each other to fulfill their roles in the body of Christ!! They can meet each week in the sermon, and because of this, our sermons can speak in a much more compelling way to the real lives of people today. To do that, they must understand more fully what these narratives meant in their own day. Ollie


16 Jun 1999
14:26:30

HMMM. I find what Ollie just said challenging, but also helpful. It makes me realize that we must dig very deeply to look at why God, as the narrative presents God, afflicts Hagar as much as God assists her. MJ in NH


16 Jun 1999
19:26:18

Just a thought. But don't we all have to eventually trust God to take care of our children? And don't all of our children live in a desert where eyes must be opened by God in order to see what God has provided for them? Aren't all of us dying in the desert until God opens our eyes to see what God has provided to save us?

All of this mess is brought about by humans taking things into their own hands, rather than trusting God to be faithful. The desert is one that we have made ourselves and we and others have to live in the consequences of our ability to take matters into our own hands. The good news is that God gives us the eyes to see and hears our cries in the desert.

John in KY


17 Jun 1999
07:04:40

There is some concern expressed that God said it was okay for Abraham to let Ishmael and Hagar go.

Who said God said this?

Abraham did.

Was Abraham using God as an excuse?

Did God really say it, or did Abraham wish God had?

peace

kent in Québec


17 Jun 1999
07:33:36

Who wants to jump on Abraham when our society is abandoning the kids?--those kids starving and living homeless, those kids from broken homes where the one parent is working 2,3 jobs and can't give the parental guidance because the jobs are needed for basics. Who wants to jump on Abraham for letting Ismael go, when we do the same thing in a society that doesn't cut off avenues of violence and sex from young minds--when we refuse to teach our kids the Christian faith and the sacredness of the church, when we refuse to help our kids deal with the harsh realities of life--when we don't help give our kids the skills to deal with disappointment and ridicule that can await them in this life. The latest school shooting in GA was because the kid was distaught over the breakup of his girlfriend!! We want to jump on Abraham for deserting Ismael when we refuse to pass legislation that would help single parent homes and would restrict the availability of firearms. Mybe I sound angry, but no, I'm scared and I feel like I am already in a desert. Come on, Ismael, you are not alone out here. STAN in TN


17 Jun 1999
08:28:52

Hi all.

Someone above suggested that the OT readings seem to be endorsing a rather uncaring family atmosphere.

I suggest that the bible is not endorsing this, but is acknowleding the reality of this in everyone's lives, even in the lives of the Patriarchs/Matriarchs.

I came across yet another Sunday School curriculum this week which focuses in "Bible Heroes." What an oximoron! The people in the Bible are anything BUT heroic! That's what is so refreshing about these stories. As limited as they are, they show enough for us to recognize ourselves in them, and to look to the God who was caring/forgiving/loving through them anyway.

In the words of one of my seminary profs, we must be faithful in whatever situation we find ourselves, but we must also be faithful TO the situation. Therefore, we must, for the sake of faithfulness, acknowledge the brokenness of our lives. Then we can faithfully extend Christ's gentle, angry, incomprehensible invitation to a life of trust, and turn our backs on the life of accumulation and busyness that we have all bought into.

So much for my (hopefully faithful!) rambling.

Rick in Canada, eh?


18 Jun 1999
06:54:24

Terrence Freitheim's commentary on the passage in the New Interpreter's Bible noted some interesting parallels between this story of Ishmael, and the sacrifice of Isaac:

God instructs Abraham to give up a son Abraham rises early in the morning and follows the instructions he was given. Abraham does not speak as preparations are being made. the victim objects (Isaac) or laments (Hagar/Ishmael) and Angel of God intervenes, saving the child, and offering a promise Both parents (Abraham & Hagar) see something that saves their son's lives.

Another connection between the two boys is that Ishmael has 12 sons (see 25:12-18), as does Jacob. The promise of 12 sons had already been made at 17:20.

Sarah (and much of Judaism & Christianity) wants to see Ishmael & his descendents as "outsiders," as "rejects." And yet, God provides for Ishmael, as God provides for Isaac. The relationship differs in some important ways, but Ishmael is not forgotten or abandaned-evidenced not only in the story but also in Ishmael's name, which means "God hears"

I, too, have been troubled by God's instructing Abraham to follow Sarah's instructions. But reading through it this time, I wondered if God realizes that separating the boys and their mothers is the best solution in this mess. As someone else pointed out, Biblical "heroes" are always complex and flawed. It is evident that Sarah will continue to cause problems for Ishmael and Hagar. Without abrogating someone's free will, perhaps the best solution possible in this situation is to separate them, and care for Hagar and Ishmael separately. It seems to me that this is similar to what happens in situations of abuse or otherwise severely disfunctional families. Being thrown out, or choosing to leave the family, is frightening and life-threatening. But those who are abandoned, or who choose to leave, are not alone. God is present.

Sarah is jealous because Ishmael is laughing/rejoicing [from zhq] (note that the Masoretic Text, does not include the words "with her son Isaac" in verse 9. The NRSV has taken this from the Septuagint) She thinks that laughing/rejoicing should be the sole perogative of she and Isaac (whose name also comes from zhq- see 21:6) When do we fall into the trap of assuming that happiness belongs to us, and get jealous when we see others enjoying it as well?

Furthermore, from what we can put together of Ancient Israelite legal practices, Ishmael is legally Sarah's son. She gave Hagar to Abraham as a surrogate, in order that she (Sarah) might have children through her (Hagar). (See 16:2) This is also a strategy that Rachel uses, and the children of her maid are considered Rachel's children (see Genesis 30:3ff), even though it is remembered that Bilhah bore them.

I'm still not sure where I'm going with this text, but I know I'm supposed to preach on it. And, in light of Littleton and Conyers, and Kosovo, it occurs to me that it has much to say to us about how we respond to "other people's" children.


18 Jun 1999
06:55:16

Oops! I forgot to sign the above.

Lorinda in IA


18 Jun 1999
09:08:55

Dear Everyone

I have appreciated the discussion this week. I feel I am truly growing for even those I disagreed with helped me in my exegesis. In developing my sermon for Sunday, I continued my view of characters and incidents as paradigms for our lives. In this Father's day sermon, I will be speaking on the "Daddy Moment," assuming it occured when Abraham pauses as then provides nourishment for Hagar and Ishmael. In the words of a popular gospel song, "What do you do when you've done all you can, you just stand. I will be also looking this next week when Abraham does the "Daddy Moment: revisited." In this series, I have tried to see all sides of each character, not seeing them as "good guy", "bad guy", but what we can learn from each's action in the incidents. In our lives, "Daddy moment's" happen


18 Jun 1999
09:16:19

Sorry, I accidently hit the submit button before finishing. In the "Daddy moments". How do we stand? Where is God in all of this? I know Yahweh came to Hagar's aid, and was involved. But I have develop a more involved examination of this paradigm, knowing that it is the "Spiritual will, and not ours" Hope some of this makes since. I still have some final touches to put in place

Shalom

Pasthersyl


18 Jun 1999
15:54:53

We have here a rather disfunctional family. And yet, God works through them all, to produce two great nations. This - not favouritism - is the real grace of God - that despite however much things may go wrong in our lives, God still works his redeeming and recreative power.

Bruce on Pender Island, BC


18 Jun 1999
18:57:59

Has anyone thought of a comparison between this pericope and Jesus' parable of the Prodigal Son? In the parable, the father stands outside in the dark, pleading with the older son to go in and join the celebration. He has accepted the younger son back without so much as asking questions about where he'd been. In both cases, God proves to be with the disinherited, even in the "wildernesses" of life. God cannot be owned by one party. Our church will hear their own story, as we have many people coming to our food pantry each month. Few members of our congregation will even come to help give out food, let alone entertain the thought of welcoming "those people" in to worship. In that sense, we can relate to Sarah, who does not want Ishmael to share the inheritance (including God's promise to Abraham). We can relate to Abraham, who allows the banishing to happen, apparently not caring for the woman who bore his child, and we can relate to Hagar's struggle in the wilderness -- all at different times of our lives. MTSOfan


19 Jun 1999
07:25:31

Would the Middle East have the problems it has today if Ishmael and Isaac had grown up side-by-side, equally loved?

The whole problem these days that we are all vying for God's favor - with each side claiming that "God likes us best!"

It's time to transcend such narrow-mindedness. Both Ishmael and Isaac are loved by God, even though they grow up in different places and live different lives. Both had been given a destiny by God. God was watching over both of them.

Might the same thing be said of those who trace their lineage through Isaac (Jews and Christians) and those who trace their lineage through Ishmael (Followers of Islam)?

Maybe it's time to start looking at one another as brothers and sisters, rather than as enemies and competitors. Maybe it's time for this original rift to be healed.

DR