My early thoughts on this passage are about "faithful resistance". Sometimes the only obedient and faithful response to a situation is to break the rules, like the midwives in this story of Moses' birth.
I read somewhere recently (possibly on DPS?) that this kind of resistance for the sake of what is right is reminicent of the actions of Rosa Parks. This strikes me as a wonderful illustration......her act of defiance in the face of hate and prejudice changed the world. So the question is, in what ways do our acts of resistance change the world for those around us? Even something that may not seem very "big" like refusing to laugh at a sexist or racist joke, could send ripples of righteousness (or right-ness) for a significant distance around us.
Did anyone read Alice Walker's "Possessing the Secret of Joy"? Without giving away the ending to the book, I think it's also a good illustration of the passage, though perhaps not very "preachable".........
Going on vacation, but these are some early thoughts.
Blessings, SueCan
ps. Rick in Va, haven't heard from you, perhaps you are away.....anyway, what does this passage say to those whose focus is often on "submission"? I would really like to hear your reflections from that perspective. Thanks!
As I read this passage, the thought that arises over and over again in my mind is: "God will find a way!"
Jerry in College Station
SueCan,
I'm a bit confused by your question. Could you clarify and expound and I'll do my best to answer it. It might help if you let me know what you understand my views on submission to be.
Thanks,
Rick in Va
P.S. I'll probably answer your question over on the discussion site since I'm not exactly sure whether it would be appropriate here on the scripture forum site.
Thanks Rick, for your quick response. My understanding (and by all means correct me if I'm mistaken) is that you see submission to God's will for our lives to be of primary importance in our faith experience. I agree wholeheartedly! I imagine though, that like the midwives in the story of Moses' birth, there are times when submitting to the will of God can get one in deep trouble with those whose vision of God's plan is quite different. (such as Pharoah, who on some bizarre level thought that destroying male children was the right thing to do).
So.........I guess my question is one of discernment. When submitting to God's will means committing an act of resistance, how do we KNOW that it's God's will we are submitting to, and not our own agenda? Even here on DPS, there is a diversity of perspectives on understanding the will of God for creation. I guess it all seems kind of subjective to me, and I wondered where the "barometer" is.....entirely in scripture? Or at least in part, is it a result of our relationship with the Holy? (Meaning that intuitive, "gut", feeling that comes from speaking and listening to God in our prayer life).
I hope that clarifies the question a bit. I'm really just picking up my wrestling with this question after my vacation, so I will continue to ponder.....
Thanks again Rick,
many blessings, SueCan
SueCan,
I will answer here since you've phrased the question in the context of the Exodus passage. You ask "how do we KNOW that it's God's will we are submitting to, and not our own agenda?"
Well, first I'm not going to pretend that my answer will be the end-all answer. I'm confident but not arrogant. So understand that I'm expressing an opinion.
Erwin Lutzer once said "Obedience to revealed truth guarantees guidance in matters unrevealed."
Revealed truth can only be found in Holy Scripture. So my first answer to your question is undoubtedly to seek out and know what the Scriptures say and then do it.
Verse 17 seems to clearly point out that God's will went against the King's will and the mid-wives obeyed God rather than the King. Scripture constantly points out the value of life, especially 'innocent' life, and this I think is clearly the case with the saving (not killing) of the Hebrew male infants.
Back to the question in a more general sense. My own experience is that I've often not known God's will until after I've stepped out and either completely messed something up or something fruitful is born. (My own writings here on the DPS tend to prove this time and again ;-) )
The final measuring rod for me I believe as to whether or not we're walking in God's will is determining whether God is glorified or not. I'm guessing that this is pretty subjective as well. A.W. Tozer put it this way: "Our great honor lies in being just what Jesus was and is. To be accepted by those who accept him, rejected by all who reject him, loved by those who love him and hated by everyone who hates him. What greater glory could come to any man?"
I'm not sure I've answered the question but I've given it a shot. Thanks for asking...
Rick in Va
Rick in Va,
Thank you for your wisdom on the question of faithful obedience. I loved the quotes, especially A W Tozer's -- I suspect that will work its way into my sermon. I agree entirely that the glorification of God is the true measure of whether we are submitting to God's will in our lives. You have articulated that better than my attempt!
I recently had a pastoral situation arise that placed me in a clear choice -- to follow my own personal preference, or to be like Peter in John's gospel and have a rope tied around my waist and be led to places that I would prefer not to go. I chose the road less traveled, the more difficult one, not because I'm a sucker for punishment, but because I sensed that it was the wiser choice -- God's will. I don't know how else to explain it, except that it "felt" like the will of God for me at that particular point in my life. In hindsight, God was indeed glorified in this decision (does that sound arrogant?). Let's just say that it WAS the right thing to do, for exactly the reason you stated.
Am I rambling? Time for the crib.........thanks again Rick! Blessings, SueCan
Mike in LA (and any other interested parties):
Late on Saturday night, I posted a comment/correction on your post about the divine name in the forum on Genesis 45 from last week. Just thought you might want to look back, since you asked for input.
Lorinda in IA
Pharaoh's daughter was not stupid. "This must be one of the Hebrews' children." I've always heard it discussed as a "neat trick" that Moses' sister was right there, offering to find a wet nurse. Surely Pharaoh's daughter would have had an equally astute guess about the young girl who appeared as she discovered the baby, and another inkling about the woman who was found so readily to nurse the child. Pharaoh's daughter returned the child with both her personal protective umbrella (becoming the child's adoptive mother) and offered the Hebrew family income. Yes God preforms miracles in our midst, but our Creator uses open and loving hearts to preform the miracles that save us. And over and over God over turns our neat assumptions that let us lump groups of people together as "inferior", or "immoral". The daughter of the man who oppressed the Hebrews saved the man who would free them. This isn't ironic. This is our God, alive and at work in any heart which is open. DL in ME
Rick and SueCan on the same page and in agreement? God does work in mysterious ways.
on Rick and SueCan agreement
....why not? God constantly at work in our life and on this page...
think of it happening with paul and peter laurel and hardy simon and garfunkel muck and meyer bud and lou Tipper Canu and Tyler Tou
Roman Catholics and Protestants in USA and Northern Ireland. Israelis and Palestinians...
Joseph and his brothers.....
hey it works when we are respectful and compassionate..... when the other persons feel the kiss of grace and not the scorching heat of rejecting judgement.
Now lead us on to the text!
ps. suecan did you pick up my response on taize on the discussion site? hope it helps.
pastordon, elmira donaldhoff@aol.com
Don in Elmira,
I continue to wonder about your less than veiled rebukes and condescending posts about 'respect', 'compassion' and 'judgment'. I have not seen evidence of 'scorching heat' or 'rejecting judgment' on these pages in a very long time (if at all). This is probably the second or third time in the last few weeks that you've back-doored an opinion about somebody's post without having the courage to be specific.
So it might help if you provide examples to back up your opinions. If you can't be honest enough to do that, then might I 'respectfully' and 'compassionately' ask that you cease the base-less charges?
Rick in Va
Hi Group! I am new to this group but I like what I see. This passage from Exodus made me think about Sharon Welch's "Ethics of Risk" and her ideas about how much we are willing to sacrifice in order to counter injustices, and also about willingness to do what we can where we are, even if we realize that we ourselves may not reap the benefits of our efforts. Sometimes all we can do is paved the way for another generation to do more. That is what those women in our texts did - stood up against the "powers that be" in the only way they could, quiet disobedience. Despite the overwhelming odds they didn't give up or accept injustice as the inevitable. And in doing so they helped save the life of a great future leader of Israel - Moses. This is such a rich passage with tons of great messages! Linda in WV
The title of my sermon is "Sneaky for Life." The women in this story had to sneak around in order to protect life. Without the power to confront tyrants directly, women have frequently had to resort to covert actions in order to protect life (e.g., spirituals disguising messages of the underground railroad). I think I read in Jan Richardson's (?) meditative journal that midwife literally means "with-women." Women with others -- in birthing, coaching, breathing, witnessing, sometimes mourning. How do we breathe with others so that new life can be born, protected, nurtured? How did Jesus?
Lois Autumn Spirit Ministry
Thanks to SueCan for setting the pace from the opening gate - I love the "faithful resistance" theme. On vacation this summer I read a marvelous novel entitled "Saints and Villians" by Denise Giardina. It is about the life of Dietrich Bonhoeffer. His major struggle in the novel has to do with what is acceptable Christian "faithful resistance." Can a Christian kill (even a Hitler) and be faithful? I like the book because Dietrich comes off like the rest of us - scared, cowardly, not particularly religious, and ends up believing the theology he writes! It's a good read, and a good example for this text. (I notice it is available on cassette so maybe your local library has it so you can read it while traveling.)
Caroline in CT
Friends, I was looking at an old Disciplines (Upper Room publication) and was struck by the author's comparison of God working in round-about, unexpected ways to save God's people--thru a baby marked for death but saved by being hidden in a reed basket. And then later saving his people once-and-for-all thru a baby born in a common barn and laid in a feed trough, also marked for death, but a death that saves! So how is God working today--still in unexpected, subtle ways to save his people. Wonders never cease!
Rebecca in MD
Hi!
This reading challenges me in two directions:
1) The question of racism and other similar ism's:
A part of the dynamic was the fear by Pharaoh that the Jews would take over. The fear of ‘they' is at the root of much racism and similar hates: ‘they', the Jews, will become too powerful in the nation; ‘they', the immigrants, will take over all the jobs; ‘they', the women, will force men out of executive jobs; ‘they'....
2) The midwives were people of no significant power.
Yet they made a significant difference. Really. Sometimes we become discouraged and feel that our churches cannot make a significant difference - we're small, we're struggling.... Our powerlessness often comes from a self-created sense that we can't, therefore we can't.
I was going to speak of #2 generally when I was first setting up my themes, but now there has been the hate-induced violence at the Jewish community centre in L.A.
We in Canada like to pride ourselves on the lack of racism here, but it ain't true, unfortunately. We have a ways to go.
(p.s. - thanks for the Rosa Parks reminder - a great parallel.
peace
kent in Québec
I found the following interesting, especially in view of the last line... Sorry it's long - scroll on by if you wish!
peace
kent in Québec
-------
Off the news wire:
TORONTO (CP) - Animal lovers are lining up to offer a home to a mutt found aboard a Chinese migrant ship, yet a poll suggests the vast majority of Canadians want the desperate migrants sent home.
Others have opened their wallets to cover vet bills for pets abused by their owners. Angry mobs, less vocal toward rapists and murders, threaten the alleged abusers of animals.
Just this week, an unruly group gathered outside an Ontario courthouse to hurl obscenities at a man accused of dragging his dog Nikita behind his truck.
People donated some $50,000 (!!!!! kc) to help pay the cost of treating the Rottweiler's skinned and bloody paws.
The city's tabloid newspaper screamed front-page warnings that a "serial killer" was on the loose last week after the corpses of three cats were found; one decapitated, one sawed in half.
Gilles Letour, of the charity CARE Canada, believes people feel increasingly powerless to help each other and so direct their compassion toward animals.
"People feel more threatened by things that involve humans," says Letour.
"If it's fuzzy and warm and not threatening, they can project sentimentalization on it. . . . as opposed to the powerlessness people feel about other issues."
The passage shines the spotlight on a God who works through the disobedience of five women--Shiphrah, Puah, Pharoah's daughter, Miriam and Moses' mother. Can anyone offer some real-life stories of, say, 5 contemporary women (a la Rosa Parks) who allowed God to work through their "FAITHFUL DISOBEDIENCE"? Jeeva in Canada
Jeeva,
Isn't there a monument to 5 great Canadian women in Manitoba (or perhaps Saskatchewan)? If memory serves, the five women are memorialized in a statue near a legislature building. Who are the five women? Good question..........I know for sure that one of them is Lydia Gruchy, the first woman ordained in Canada in 1926 (United Church of Canada). The names of the others escape me at the moment. But all had to overcome much hardship and prejudice to live their dreams. (I think one of them was the first woman to become a physician in Canada, but it's all a bit fuzzy.......)
Sorry for my poor memory on the names (now that I'm 40, it's all downhill.....). Perhaps there is a website where that info could be accessed.
Blessings, SueCan
I, like Rebecca in MD, am focusing on the striking similarities between the stories of Moses and Jesus. They're wonderful reminders that God's mighty purposes simply can't be thwarted, even by the apparently awesome powers of the world arrayed against. Though innocents may and do suffer greatly at the hands of tyrants, God's purposes will be complete.
DB in MD
My apologies Jeeva!
You piqued my curiosity, so I did a little searching and discovered that the statue is to honour "The Valiant Five" -- Emily Murphy, Nellie McClung, Irene Marryat Parlby, Louise McKinney, Henrietta Edwards. (Lydia Gruchy has her own memorial elsewhere).
In 1927, The group, led by Emily Murphy, asked the Supreme Court of Canada to answer this question "Are women persons?". The Supreme Court responded after 5 weeks of debate -- "No, women are not persons under the law"
So, the group then took their cause to the highest court of the time, which was the Privy Council in England. Imagine the courage it must have taken for these women to travel overseas "unaccompanied"! The end result was that on October 18, 1929...the Privy Council declared that women were indeed persons under the law.
Now THAT'S faithful resistance!!!
SueCan
Rebecca in MD:
Thanks for adding that angle
peace
kent in Québec
Thanks, everyone, for a fabulous, spirit-inspired discussion. "the five women" get my juices flowing. Two weeks ago dealing with Jacob, Joseph, and the ten brothers I had men and boys representing each come stand up front of the congregation as I told their story and then put them on trial and had the congregation to vote on who was guilty. We had great fun with it and, of course, each got some votes so we then talked about Leonard Sweet's take on the text as collective guilt. People loved the sermon and felt engaged. One of the elementary kids came up afterwards with bunches of questions about Joseph and those bad big brothers.... Now with your five women images - up I'll bring some women this week and tell their stories. No trial this time, I don't think, but stimulation about faithful resistance. I love the Five Canadian women story - thanks, folks - of course Rosa Parks and all the unnamed women who stood with her. I'm working on examples in our lives - like not laughing at the sexist joke. Any other suggestions? Caroline in CT
Friends, great discussion-how refreshing to use a passage that encourages us to lift up the role of women in God's salvation story! All 5 women in this passage helped 'birth' the savior God was sending for that day. Later in NT, many women-Mary, Elizabeth, Martha & Mary, etc.-helped 'birth' the savior God was sending for the universe! So many roles to be played, parts to be filled-God does things on an even grander scale than Cecil B. DeMille! But in such a subtle way that we can be standing in the middle of the stage, with God acting all around us in the people we'd never suspect, and miss it all. How can God's saving story continue through us-women and men who seem to have such bit parts but can still contribute to the 'birthing' of salvation into the next millenium.
Rebecca in MD
Thanks for the discussion. I am just starting to preach every week and need help. Noticed that Moses mother and sister are not afraid to us the help of those out side the faith. Also they are prepared to act. In the church we sometimes are afraid to act to help or save because we do not know the outcome. Blessings Clarice
Just thought I'd add something. I read somewhere in the last year or so that the book of Exodus is characterized by the use of water for deliverance. The lectionary texts our of Exodus this year attest to that. They are also alternated with text dealing with the fire/power of God. My idea is to do a sermon series using those images (water and fire) and dealing with the journey Israel takes with Moses as a journey of faith in a more general sense. I know it's late in the week, but this is when I do this. Amy in IL
Amy in IL--thanks for raising the fire/water themes to my awareness. You're absolutely right--these continue for some weeks here. Some years back we used fire/water themes for Lent, and we made two simple banners with our Confirmation kids. Each banner was simply five or more layers of fabric in various "fire" or "water" colors. We included a gold tissue lame layer in the fire packet, and a silver one in the middle of the water. These are sewn at the top in a rod pocket, then the kids cut them from bottom to top (we used pinking sheers, I think, for the fire one) in wavy patterns, even clipping the strands at different lengths and leaving some cut out spaces in each of the layers. (Sounds weird, but looks surprisingly good). The top layer on the water one was a sheer fabric, and after making it I wondered what it would have looked like to have one or more layers of each of them in a sheer. We then posted a kid holding each banner, and at appropriate parts of the telling of the stories, they would move the banner so that the strands rippled. At other times the strands rippled as air moved in the building. I was noticing how the story begins with the simple statement: Pharoah no longer knew/remembered Joseph. In the past few weeks, remembering has been such a theme in my own life, in community life, and in the larger world. Students at Columbine return to school, to deal with memories, while also afraid that others will not remember. Two friends remember the death dates of their sons, gone five and six years ago this week. A mother miscarries at the end of her first trimester, as I did earlier this year, and grasps for anything to remember that it was a real life that was lost. A woman in Colorado begins to tell of her experience as a transcriptionist for the Neuremberg trials, remembering and calling others to remembrance as she realizes that an entire generation is about to pass away, carrying the memories with them. Trauma makes us remember the last time we felt this way...so news of any kind can bring deep grief, anger and turmoil to surface again, and we continue to remember, and to grow. And what happens to the people of Israel when no one remembers Joseph? They become slaves. But there is a remembrance that frees..."This do in remembrance of me..." There were no bonds of slavery strong enough to prevent God from fulfilling the promise, the covenant made with Abraham. And how did God show the strength of God's arm? It all begins with five women, five brave women, and one of them not even a Jew. Not even our slavery to sin and our bondage to death will prevent God from fulfilling the covenant made to Abraham. There is a Holy Remembering, "Remember, your father was a wandering Aramean..." that tells us who we are, who our God is (Remember, I am the God of Abraham and Sarah, Isaac and Rebecca, Jacob and Leah and Rachel, Joseph and his brothers (even the scoundrels)" It's Friday, and I'm not sure where all I am going with this...so I work late this weekend! Betsy in OH
Amy in IL--thanks for reminding me about the fire/water themes coming up here. A few years ago we used Fire/WAter themes in Lent and made some banners with our Confirmation kids. Each banner consisted of five or more layers of fabric in water or fire colors. Some fabrics were sheer, others were metallic, others were plain. They were sewn together at the top into a rod pocket, sandwiched together in one pile, like a stack of paper. We then cut wavy patterns (used pinking shears on the fire) and made streamers in each layer of the fabric--none of the layers cut the same way, and cut to different lengths so that fabric of other layers "peeked" through. Then during the readings, the students moved the banners, with the streamers rippling. It was very easy, and very effective.
I was thinking about how the story begins: there came a time when Pharaoh (and ostensibly others) did not know/remember Joseph. Then Joseph's descendants became slaves. In recent weeks, the theme of rememberance has been lively around me. Three families close to me tread lightly through these weeks of late August, when each of them have lost a son in the past few recent years. There is never a day they do not remember...but the death day anniversary is hard, will never be just another day. Students at Columbine deal with memories as they return to school...and families fear that the world will not remember, will not take head. A woman in Colorado who was a transcriptionist in the Neuremburg trials begins to speak about the medical atrocities of WWII as she perceives the last generation with a living memory of all this is about to pass away, and she fears it will not be remembered as true. A woman in my congregation grieves a miscarriage this week, searching for something to remember that this was a life, a real life lost. And her miscarriage reminds me that this week I would have given birth to twins, had they not died in utero earlier...and I know her pain altogether too well. We can become enslaved by memories...but we are freed by another Holy Memory. Remember that I am the God of Abraham and Sarah, Isaac and Rebecca, Jacob and leah and rachel and Joseph and all his rapscallion brothers...and a criminal asking Jesus to remember him, when he comes into his kingdom....and Jesus commanding us to "do this, in remembrance of me..." A holy remembering, anamnesis, that frees us from all our slaveries, even of death itself. And at the beginning of the story, God works through women, not all of whom were even Jews...through those the world considered weak or insignificant. And one day Pharaoh would remember the God of Abraham and Sarah, Isaac and Rebeccah, Jacob and...and Pharaoh would know the strength of God's arm, the God of Moses. And Israel would be charged to never forget again...to forever remember the God who saves, drawing us out of the water. Betsy in OH
Thank you Betsy in OH for your wise offering......... I love the idea of Holy Remembering. This is Communion Sunday for us, so I've tapped into the idea of the "collective strength" that we find in gathering to share bread and wine. We find this strength in holy scripture (and this week, particularly the story of the five courageous women) and in the example set by other faithful Christians. In our remembrances of the faithful saints before, AND with the spiritual power brought by each of us who has encountered Jesus and responded to the question "Who do you say that I am?" -- well, with this combination, we are indeed a powerful and Spirit-filled Body of Christ!
I too am working late this weekend, but I'm loving this text, so it's ok.
Blessings, SueCan
ps. My deepest sympathies for your loss earlier this year.
There’s a Peanuts comic strip that shows Charlie Brown sitting at a desk with pencil in hand and a piece of paper in front of him. Next to him is seated his new camp friend whose name is Cormac. Charlie Brown says to his friend, “We’re supposed to write home to our parents, Cormac, and tell them what a great time we’re having here at camp.” Cormac responds, “Even if we’re not? Isn’t that a lie?” Charlie Brown answers, “Well, it’s sort of a white lie. . .” And Cormac responds thoughtfully, “Lies come in colors?”
I thought the illustration was a good one to apply to this text.
Gretchen in South Dakota
There’s a Peanuts comic strip that shows Charlie Brown sitting at a desk with pencil in hand and a piece of paper in front of him. Next to him is seated his new camp friend whose name is Cormac. Charlie Brown says to his friend, “We’re supposed to write home to our parents, Cormac, and tell them what a great time we’re having here at camp.” Cormac responds, “Even if we’re not? Isn’t that a lie?” Charlie Brown answers, “Well, it’s sort of a white lie. . .” And Cormac responds thoughtfully, “Lies come in colors?”
I thought the illustration was a good one to apply to this text.
Gretchen in South Dakota
Two quick thoughts on this text: 1. One sermon on the web notes that, before the time of Moses' birth, a tribe of people began to migrate into Egypt from Asia. These people eventually rose to defeat the ruling dynasty & take the throne of Egypt. These new rulers took the Egyptian title "pharaoh" and worshiped Egyptian gods. It may very well have been the first of these rulers ("Hyksos" dynasty) who didn't "know Joseph". Ironically, these people were Semitic! They were related to the Hebrews! Blood may be thicker than water, but unfortunately, it often isn't thicker than human greed for power! 2. Concerning "white lies" and the midwives: My first theology prof at seminary (Methodist Theological School in Ohio), Father George Tavard, told us a story of a relative of his in France, hiding Jews from the Nazis in WW II. When questioned by the Nazis, she denied hiding Jews or knowing of them being hidden. Asked how she, a Christian, could lie so blatantly to the soldiers, she replied, "They are evil. They have no right to the truth." Pharaoh, in scheming to work wickedness against the people of thr Covenant, had surrendered his right to the truth. Ken in WV P.S. Welcome, Linda in WV! Are you pastoring a church? Where are you serving?
Hi - I'm new to the group, nad this week is of particular interest to me because I live in Cairo, Egypt.
Whenever we talk about Moses and his delivery to and through the Nile, I remember the role that the river played in saving Joseph and his family from death. After Joseph had risen to authority in Egypt, there was drought in Palestine as well as Egypt. Unfortunately, Palestine does not have the Nile, and so folks moved toward Egypt.
From historical records we know that this happened frequently, with large groups of people moving closer to the rich fertile land of Egypt. They were welcomed and given food, and - even after the drought ended - chose to stay in Egypt.
It was several generations before oppression began, and that was due to political changes in the kingdom as a whole. The Nile is an amazing river, and a suitable place for Moses to be saved.