Date: 29 Apr 2002
Time: 11:36:14
My 1st impressions of this text are always the same: New Agey type stuff. I know people who actually worship the modern-day equivalent of an unknown god. from my Christian perspective, I cannot understand the need to worship - ** as I understand worship ** - a god we don't know. It seems as if the Gospel lesson is giving us the link - "I am in the father, I am in you and you in me." and Paul tells us that he is our God made known.
This might be a good week to talk about worship. I'm trying to encourge folks to think about and be more purposeful about discipleship in general. Worship is part of that. Are we, in essence, worshiping one Whom we haven't taken the time or energy to know as well as we could? Has worship become rote, or something good folks do on Sunday morning?
Sally in GA
Date: 29 Apr 2002
Time: 12:10:04
I would take the slant that Paul preaches using what is already there, indigenous in the culture. How many times have we thrown out anything indigenous with those we have ministered to in order to win them to Christ? How stupid is that? God is already there in most cultures; just maybe not known. this goes for the subculture of roller bladers who would never come to church; but may come into your parking lot if the church let them skate there! Then when they are there, put on a helmet, get on your skates, and get to know them on their turf. You'll be surprised to find God is already there.
Jeff in BAth
Date: 29 Apr 2002
Time: 12:10:15
I would take the slant that Paul preaches using what is already there, indigenous in the culture. How many times have we thrown out anything indigenous with those we have ministered to in order to win them to Christ? How stupid is that? God is already there in most cultures; just maybe not known. this goes for the subculture of roller bladers who would never come to church; but may come into your parking lot if the church let them skate there! Then when they are there, put on a helmet, get on your skates, and get to know them on their turf. You'll be surprised to find God is already there.
Jeff in BAth
Date: 29 Apr 2002
Time: 12:20:14
"In God we live and move and have our being."I believe that the "God Presence" is able to be seen in the created world, is in the people we meet, is in the very air we breath. God is present in us. the "Tiger" in this scripture is that we often do not have the "eyes" to see, the "ears" to hear or the "heart" to feel that presence.
Date: 29 Apr 2002
Time: 12:29:46
"In God we live and move and have our being."I believe that the "God Presence" is able to be seen in the created world, is in the people we meet, is in the very air we breath. God is present in us. the "Tiger" in this scripture is that we often do not have the "eyes" to see, the "ears" to hear or the "heart" to feel that presence. I believe it is the task - work - ministry - responsibility of the church (body of Christ) to help each other and those outside our church walls to hear, see, and feel - experience the God Presence. I LOVE the idea of putting on roller blades and going out in the parking lot and inviting young people in so you can get to know them.God is indeed present in other peoples lives. Just because we do not have our stamp on it does not mean God is not there. When we take the time to listen and "see" the God presence in others and can affirm that with them or help them identify it - that is when faith grows strong. AHA! dialog asks the question - Do fish know they are in water? Do they know "water" even though they are IN it? What are some more practical ways we can suggest to congregations to help people discover the God, Christ, Spirit presence that they are living it? I am just thinking - got any help? jmj in WI
Date: 29 Apr 2002
Time: 14:14:55
"From one ancestor he made all nations to inhabit the whole earth..."
Um, excuse me Paul, but was that "one ancestor" Adam or Eve?
Pastor Andy
Date: 29 Apr 2002
Time: 14:41:13
I too would like to focus on worship, reminding ourselves that we are a mixed back when it comes to what is most important to us (what/who we attribute the greatest worth to). Even we Christians have a pretty good dose of human make-up (thank God for that) which means that my worship of God is not "pure". Yet, in worship, we get to bring our whole selves, warts and all, to God, in whom I live and move and have my being. We give worth to so many things and people. I suppose that on this Sunday, I would like to remind the folks that, with all these competing allegiances, there is One who we are invited to turn to with thankful hearts. Any other thoughts on worship??
Tom in TO
Date: 29 Apr 2002
Time: 14:42:57
I too would like to focus on worship, reminding ourselves that we are a mixed back when it comes to what is most important to us (what/who we attribute the greatest worth to). Even we Christians have a pretty good dose of human make-up (thank God for that) which means that my worship of God is not "pure". Yet, in worship, we get to bring our whole selves, warts and all, to God, in whom I live and move and have my being. We give worth to so many things and people. I suppose that on this Sunday, I would like to remind the folks that, with all these competing allegiances, there is One who we are invited to turn to with thankful hearts. Any other thoughts on worship??
Tom in TO
Date: 29 Apr 2002
Time: 18:34:25
Pastor Andy,
Perhaps Paul was refering to the first human (adam) who was neither fully male nor female. Then adam was divided into ish and ishah, neither of which was identical to adam. Ish and ishah were then given the proper names Adam and Eve.
SheepDog in MI
Date: 30 Apr 2002
Time: 09:23:29
Jeff in Bath, I think you are "right on" about this scripture. I am reminded of the failures western missionaries experienced when they assumed that their culture and values were synonymous with Christianiy. So you end up with missionaries in corsets and long dresses or shirts, ties and suitcoats in Hawaii telling Polynesian natives that their skimpy dress is sinful,when it was actually healthy for their climate!
All too often we make the mistake of assuming we know all God's values and they resemble our cultural values. Paul is so wise to realize that God was there before him. This wisdom enabled him to reach the Greeks and Romans, because he accepted that God was already in their midst in the form of the unknown God.
This lack of understanding that God always, always, always goes before us is crippling the church today. The truth is in the United States every generation has its own language, values and culture that are shaped by formative events in the growing up years. Formative events like the Depression, WWII, the Korean War, Vietnam, the Civil Rights Movement, the deaths of JFK, RK and Martlin Luther King, the Challenger Crash, the rate of divorce and drug and alcohol addiction, Columbine and Sept. 11, 2001 affect the values of each generation and make them different.
If you can't tell I'm passionate about this issue! I completed a doctoral degree and my research was on how to bridge the generation gap within the church. The truth is unless we honor the unknown God, unless we truly believe that God goes before us, unless we help every new generation make the gospel new and relevant for their time the church as we know it will not survive. Afterall, whether you sing a gospel, country, traditional, hardrock, classical or rap version of Amazing Grace the meanning is still the same. It's amazing God saved a wretch like me. I can't earn that grace, I don't deserve it, I just get to accept it. Peace, Diana at the Lakes
Date: 30 Apr 2002
Time: 09:37:04
Title: "Mission in the Marketplace"
The mission of the church is to take the message to where the people are. Paul starts in the synagogue (church), goes into the marketplace (the supermarket, work place etc.), and is TAKEN up to the Areopogus (the University - New Agey stuff or whatever titilates the intellect).
This passage shows us that Mission begins with a broken heart - Paul was disturbed by the idols he saw. I don't know about you, but I am broken hearted by the idols that consume cultures around the world.
Mission searches for common ground. Paul was not threatened by the Stoics and Epicureans - rather he identified with those parts of their beliefs that pointed to the true God. Christians are not threatened by 'non-Christian' beliefs/thoughts. Wherever truth exists, we find an opporunity to point people to Jesus Christ. Paul even uses their own philosophers.
Other points worth noting: Mission acknowledges the human search for God; assures that God is near (an appeal to Stoic pantheistic ideas); calls for repentance; is driven by the urgency of the coming judgement; proclaims the resurrection hope for all people because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Early thoughts from a Canadian in Scotland.
Date: 30 Apr 2002
Time: 09:50:20
I wonder why the "Lectionary gods" (as someone has recently called them) decided to leave off vv. 16-21 ... they are rather important for setting the scene. I'm going to include them in our reading of this passage!
It is important to note that although Paul was "deeply distressed to see that the city was full of idols" and debating with prominent philosophers of the day, he is nonetheless respectful of the Athenians. He does not condemn their religions or philosophies, but acknowledges what is contained therein that is true and then offers the Truth of Jesus Christ. Would that all missionary work was carried out with as much respect for the indigenous beliefs.
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 30 Apr 2002
Time: 09:58:23
Diane and Jeff: You are both on to something. Diane I would like to hear more of your work. Most church people miss the point of trying new ways to attract people. Paul does not scold or tell the people they were bound for hell. Instead he compliments them on their spiritual quest.
What might we find walking through the mall on a Saturday afternoon--what can we devise to bring the gospel to the people we see there?
Just some thoughts-- Paula in sunny Florida
Date: 30 Apr 2002
Time: 11:06:42
I'm with jmjinWI. What are some more practical ways to help people discover the God in whom they live (and who lives in them...from the gospel). There are many in the pews (at least here) who have not discovered God in/and Jesus Christ. Maybe I should say, have not "experienced" any one of the trinity. ARE there practical ways to accomplish this? MaxinNC
Date: 30 Apr 2002
Time: 12:13:52
Uh - I guess I missed something ... when did anyone suggest threatening hell to counter worship of idols? I didn't see a post pertaining to that until someone started warning against that tactic.
Paul affirms their deep religiosity. He wants to point them to the Truth, to amend, or zero in on what they'r looking for. In Wesleyan language, it might be called "Prevenient Grace," the period of time when we know that we're missing something - and when we may (my favorite example) look for love in all the wrong places, including idols and New Agey type stuff.
I used to live a couple blocks away from Atlanta's answer to the Haight Ashbury, and you can get all kinds of spiritual stuff there (not to mention "spiritual stuff"), but none of it that I ever saw was Judeo-Christian, and only a tiny bit was Muslim. However, one could purchase statuettes of gods and goddesses, colorful stones to heal your soul, herbs, vitamins, tapes & CD's of spiritual music, gongs and chimes and crystals, alongside - uh - stylish - clothing in a store called Throb. Go get something pierced, branded, or embedded, or be content to sit in on a bongo-playing circle. Eat all-natural vegetarian foods in a restaurant that shares a parking lot with a liquor store. Buy all-natural 100% cotton clothing before going to the beauty shop to get your hair dyed blue. I always feel (and look) pretty square when I go there. I don't condemn them nor do I go into the crystal store or the stores that sell gods and goddesses or the store that sells bongs and shout hell, fire, and brimstone.
this place, called "Little Five Points," pretty much exemplifies the searching within human souls. That this has been the scene for a racially-motivated hate crime, ties it in with our upcoming Annual Conference's theme of racial reconciliation.
Sally in GA
Date: 30 Apr 2002
Time: 12:22:22
Oh, and as an interesting thing I remember from the 1st time I lived there - it was quite the hullabaloo that the producers of "Driving Miss Daisy" wanted to put a sign in the window of Sevananda food co-op that advertised bacon. What was then Sevananda (and is now a wilderness store) was the Piggly Wiggly in the movie and it was quite the community struggle. It was flat-out against their principles to even put a sign up advertising something from a dead animal. While that wasn't exactly religion per se, this was a deep conviction these folks held. Even tho' I'm not a vegetarian, I tended to side with the food co-op. The producers won.
And, sad to say, there's even a Starbucks a block down.
Sigh ... from a city slicker
Sally in GA
Date: 30 Apr 2002
Time: 20:57:09
I think focusing on the worship of idols misses Paul's genius in this situation. The reason Paul was such an amazing missionary was his ability to see God in every circumstance, in every place, and in every culture. I can't imagine him doing ministry in the places he did if he didn't know the Holy Spirit had gone before him. I also think he knew that we humans are created with a yearning for the holy. All he had to do was find a way to tap into that yearning for the holy. All he had to do was present the truth of the gospel in such a way that it connected with their yearning for the holy.
By the way, one of my Methodist colleagues down the road says that the time to do a street survey is Sunday morning. His downtown church started a second site and has gone from 135 in average attendance to over 450 in five years. One of the things he did was an informal survey to see what folks were doing in his town, who weren’t going to worship on Sunday morning. Then he strategized how his congregation might reach those folks. It’s worked!
Paula, thanks for your interest in my work. If we can’t sing the good news, share the faith and preach the gospel in simple yet profound ways that are relevant today mainline Protestant churches will continue to miss future generations. We have not reached the majority of Boomers and Gen Xers. We will soon be on our way to missing the Millennials. For my research project I developed a retreat called “Retreating to Bridge the Generation Gap”. The retreat involved educating today’s youth and adult generations to their differences and their similarities. In the process we tried to build understanding, community and hopefully acceptance that different generations value different things yet all can be faithful. By the end of the retreat the goal was to increase awareness about why the form of church life might need to change so that the substance of the gospel could better be shared with younger generations. The retreat resulted in a strategy to reach younger generations. The research was oriented to pastoral size churches, which I believe tend to be dominated by one generation. Hope this helps.
Diana at the Lakes
Date: 01 May 2002
Time: 07:04:14
Thanks Diane for your response. I agree that many church people just do not understand what it takes to reachout to different generations. They make very little effort. Sounds like your retreat worked well. I've tried to do workshops in the evning but very few bothered to attend. So the problem continues and the church continues to fail to reach younger generations.
Paula in sunny Fl.
Date: 01 May 2002
Time: 07:35:36
Hi all.
A brief bit of background. The worshipppers of the Greek Pantheon were expected to offer a sacrifice of thanks when they received a favour from one of the gods (a good harvest, birth of a son, you name it). Each god has his/her own area of "specialization" (you might say), and worshipppers were expected to say thanks to the correct god.
This "to an unknown god" altar/chapel was set up to address the uncomfortable situation of a divine favour being received, but which god had granted the favour was unknown. The worshipper could offer a thanksgiving sacrifice or prayer at this chapel, and stay "in good" with whatever god "out there" had helped out. After all, it would not do to appear ungrateful! Next time you might not be so lucky!
This doesn't really tie in too much the previous discussion, but I thought it might help spark some ideas.
Rick in Canada, eh?
Date: 01 May 2002
Time: 07:41:48
Sheep Dog, Interesting idea. I don't know biblical hebrew (or any other for that matter!) so I usually read the text with only the sparsest knowledge of the original language (a handicap, I know!). When considering the creation of humanity from a literalist point of view, I always understood Gen. 1:26-27 as being a spiritual creation, then 2:7 as being the physical creation. In that sense, I understood Adam a being formed from the dust of the earth as a physical being, complete and finished. The only subsequent alteration being the removal of the rib to make the woman.
I'm not sure what my point is exactly, especially since I am not a strict literalist and my original comment was mostly intended to be rather glib. But it is interesting to note and discuss these little "Hmmmmmmmm" moments encountered in scripture.
Pastor Andy.
Date: 01 May 2002
Time: 07:52:11
Diana at the Lakes,
A few years ago there was an article in our local paper about a Free Methodist church that was growing by leaps and bounds. When discussing the process that lead to such growth, the pastor spoke of their struggles years before, when times were not so good. He said that they had tremendous success in missions (I don't remember if he was speaking directly of his church or more broadly of his denomination) but were stagnant back home. They looked at the question of "what are we doing abroad that we are not doing at here?" and the answer was - learning about and using indigenous culture. They realized that at home, they took it for granted that they knew what was going on in their world, when in reality they were vastly out of touch. Long and short, they adapted and grew. Think "line dancing in worship"! Not my particular cup of tea, but if it reaches people with the Gospel, why not?!
Pastor Andy
Date: 01 May 2002
Time: 08:39:16
Even for those of us who know Jesus and strive to live as his disciples, isn't there a part, a LARGE PART of God that is "Unknown"? "In him we live and move and have our being," and not all of us perceive and/or acknowledge his presence. But even those of us who do, there are always moments, or long stretches, of groping, struggling, wrestling. The gift of Christ is that we have a connection, a starting point to which we work forward to the Father (a possible tie-in to the either of the John texts).
Just meandering...
Pastor Andy
Date: 01 May 2002
Time: 08:58:49
It is fitting that Paul should bring out the idea of Jesus as judge in this sermon in Acts since he was standing on the Areopagus, the most famous judgment ground of Athens. Paul says that Jesus is the appointed Judge because God raised him from the dead. In the Greek the word for resurrection is anastasis, and as soon as the word is out of Paul’s mouth, the crowd goes wild. They scoff. They leave. They laugh. Paul is definitely mad. Resurrection—anastasis—impossible! You see, those educated Athenians know their Greek plays. In one of the most famous plays, ”The Eumenides,” by Aeschylus, Orestes is on trial for killing his mother. This trial takes place on the Areopagus. In a famous line from this play, Apollo says: "once the dust has drained down all a mortal's blood, once the mortal has died, there is no anastasis--no resurrection-- no raising the mortal up again. This is a thing for which my father never made curative spells. All other states, without effort of hard breath, he can completely rearrange." In other words, Zeus, Apollo's father, can bring about all things except resurrection. That is the one thing that is impossible. Once a mortal has died . . . It's over. But here is Paul, 500 years later standing in the same place as Apollo, saying that a mortal has been resurrected from the dead. Belief in the resurrection becomes the stumbling block, the slippery surface that causes human faith to fall for those Athenians. And it is not so different from our situation today. As a matter of fact, the smooth pink rock that lies on the Areopagus is so slippery that nowadays an ambulance is typically parked down beneath it for those who fall on the rocks and hurt themselves. All of us face difficulties in believing, we slide and stumble in our faith. Blessings, Carla from TX
Date: 01 May 2002
Time: 09:46:38
I too agree with Jeff and Diana! Paul does a great job of "meeting people where they are at" so to speak. We should do so well in the church today! We live in a highly "intellectual/high tech" culture with "many gods". If we can't begin to risk something new and maybe uncomfortable in order to meet folks where they are and then take them farther, we're in bad shape. revjaw
Date: 01 May 2002
Time: 10:28:14
"Idols to an unknown God." Being the first Sunday of the month, our congregation will celebrate Communion and I am planning to use this passage to remind folks that our God longs to know us and be known by us. The sacrament is one of the ways we Presbyterian types believe that we can draw near to God know him as we experience his 'real presence.' I also plan to use the incarnation passage in John 1:1-5;14 to talk about God taking the initiative to know us, pairing it with Jesus' invitation to the table
T.L. in Nashville
Date: 01 May 2002
Time: 13:22:37
Thanks, all, for your thoughts. Especially on idol worhip and the "unknown god." I used to think that about churches called "All Saints" when I was a kid.
Prevenient grace - grace that goes before. We experience it as wooing - and may respond by idol worship. I agree that this can be Jesus' way of "meeting us where we're at," as a beginning point. But that's just it: it's a beginning point. Beginning points ought not be confused with discipleship. Although Christ's wooing us (to borrow Wesley) is his relationship with us, and ours with him (unknown to us at that point), I cannot accept that prevenient grace is sufficient for Christ-led discipleship. It's still looking for love in all the wrong places.
Well, I'm sticking with my theme of worship. I'm going to be different (for me) this time and do a three-pointer. #1) What is worship #2) We worship that which we value, #3) We worship that which we know - early working outline. sometimes we forget that God responds to our worship, a good communion theme.
Sally
Date: 01 May 2002
Time: 19:29:46
I like what I've heard about Paul's witness emerging from the culture of which he is a part. Within the church, we often use so many "churchy" words, that people who have no Christian memory haven't got the foggiest idea what we are talking about. Yet all humans share common experiences - like hope, or brokeness, or separation, etc. Like Paul, our witness might want to begin in these places, where we share a common experience and language, build a relationship, and within that context share the meaning of Jesus with others. Some thoughts ....
Tom
Date: 01 May 2002
Time: 19:30:25
The following comes from our Board of Discipleship of the UMC church. I wonder if one of you can explain the place Mars' Hill? I've never heard that expression...
Please advise!
http://www.gbod.org/worship/default.asp?act=reader&item_id=4650
Acts reading: Where is Mars' Hill in your community? Is it the local college or university campus? Is it the shopper?s channel that nobody admits to watching? Is it the Sunday school class that loves to dabble in "religious" ideas and experiences? Might Mars' Hill and contemporary Athenians be lurking somewhere in the minds and hearts of United Methodists (or substitute your brand of Christian discipline or lack thereof)? Where you locate Mars' Hill for today?s liturgy will shape how you connect this text to your hearers. Does the Spirit in you want them to identify with Paul or with the Athenians? with the evangelist or the hearers?
Thanks,
pulpitt in ND
Date: 01 May 2002
Time: 20:06:40
Your discussion of finding a point of contact and working within a given culture reminds me of a book by Kosuki Koyama called "Water Buffalo Theology". Koyama was Japanese missionary working in Thailand. He critiqued the traditional European missionary approach and tried to use images from the culture to explain the Christian view... like waterbuffalo, the monsoon season, etc. I will look for some quotes and examples to post. (My book is at church, and I am at home...)
DGinNYC
Date: 02 May 2002
Time: 05:44:16
PulPitt in ND (hi, rick!) asked about the term "Mars Hill" -- this is nothing more than the English translation of the word "Areopagus" - a compound made up from the Greek name of Mars, "Ares", and the word for hill or peak, "pagos". In fact, in the Greek NT, the word "Areopagos" does not appear. The two words "Areou pagou" are used, which is the possessive form, "Mars' Hill".
Hope that helps explain the term.
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 02 May 2002
Time: 05:47:43
Not to be too technical ... but ... I left an iota out that Greek.
It's "Areiou Pagou" ...
OK, I admit it, that's too technical.
Eric in KS
Date: 02 May 2002
Time: 07:10:02
Jeff in bath wrote quote Then when they are there, put on a helmet, get on your skates, and get to know them on their turf. You'll be surprised to find God is already there.
end quote
I can't skate, But I am proud to say that we have a Bishop who roller blades! And who is willing to meet each person where they are. She has come to the farthest end of our Conference to visit us. Her example and leadership are much appreciated.
Paul sought to use every idea or opportunity to share the good news of Christ where ever and when ever he could.
May the Holy Paraclete help each of us do the same. Shalom wd in wnc
Date: 02 May 2002
Time: 09:14:07
Paul reminds us that we are not responsible for bringing God but announcing the one true God who is already present.
Interesting stuff about "little five points" in Atlanta. Altizer reportedly worked on his controversial and insightful book "The Gospel of Christian Atheism" where we find the often misunderstood concept of "God is Dead" theology at Manuel's Tavern in that same section of town. Hey, I might have a sermon illustration for Sunday. Instead of "to an unknown God" I may just speak of the altar "to a God we perceived to dead."
SunCityRev
Date: 02 May 2002
Time: 11:02:08
The story is told that after Helen Keller's teacher, Anne Sullivan, had taught her names of physical objects in sign language,she then attempted to explain God. She shaped for Helen the symbols for the name "God". Much to Miss Sullivan's surprise, Helen spelled back, "Thank you for telling me God's name, Teacher, for he has touched me many times before. I always knew he was there, but I didn't know what his name was." Rita Nakashima Brock speaks of a child who was severely molested by a family member who retreated to a place in her soul to escape. It was there that she was reassured by a voice and presence who shared her grief and pain. Good discussion... Kate in socal
Date: 02 May 2002
Time: 11:15:04
I've been reading Kristin Hahn's new book "In Search of Grace: A Religious Outsider's Journey Across America's Landscape of Faith." The author took a kind of "cultural immersion" approach to learning about religious practices from a variety of traditions. In the Epilogue she writes: "Over the last few years, friends and strangers alike have asked me which religious practice(s) I've been most personally drawn to. In a sense, I've been possessed by them all, their devotions and practices inhabiting me like noisy tenants in a high-rise building" (p. 292).
I might play with the idea that the book is not only about a search for grace, but also about a search for an unknown god.
Somehow I hope to connect this book with Reinhold Niebuhr ("The content of [Christian] revelation is not primarily the assurance that God can [and does] speak to [us], but rather the assurance that God's final word to [us] is not one of judgment but of forgiveness and mercy," Nature & Destiny I, 144) and with Paul's reference to Christ as Judge. I personally take comfort in the assurance that Christ will be my judge.
Doug in DC
Date: 02 May 2002
Time: 12:45:32
Sun City Rev - too funny! I just e-mailed an old friend about setting up a lunch date. One of her suggestions was Manuel's Tavern - good burgers, as I remember. You're either currently in Atlanta or you've lived here at some point.
Pulpitt in ND - I got some benefit from the gbod site, too. I'd never visited it before and thought it was pretty good. And, I guess Eric beat me to the Mars Hill. I'd heard that in a sermon a long time ago (see? someone listens).
I'm narrowing my topic down more. I titled it, "A 2-Way Street," and going to hone in on Jesus' 11th commandment to love each other and his words, "If you love me, keep my commandments" - a commentary suggested that loving is doing for others. I'm going to make it broader and go for "love" is a verb - doing for others, but also actively placing oneself in God's presence. One can't love without 1st experiencing love - and worship is one means to do that. One can't love another in Christ's name without a solid relationship with him. So, take time to worship. And know who you worship! It's a 2-way street: not just our supplication to God, but God's, um ... reassurance (is that a good word?) back to us. Simple, huh? But, I guess I'm kind of a simple gal.
Praising God today (I lost track of time this AM while reading, journaling, and praying and found I'd spent an hour and 15 minutes with God - in my pajamas - and I've been in a great mood ever since).
Sally in GA
Date: 02 May 2002
Time: 12:51:19
Doug in DC - great quote! Thanks (I'd missed it at first)
Sally
Date: 02 May 2002
Time: 12:59:26
One more post from me
Sun City Rev referred to an altar entitled, "to the god we perceive to be dead." This opens up a whole sacramental beauty - for Christians, the Lord's table is proof of his life, death, and life in us:
Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again. What a wondrous mystery of faith.
Sally
Date: 02 May 2002
Time: 13:07:41
Thanks to Rick in Canada for your info about the unknown God. It reminded me of when somebody receives an anonymous gift from somebody else -- you don't know who to thank. So, in a small community, you may publish a thank-you in the paper or newsletter. Anonymous giving can be a great thing, of course, and people will do it with no need of being personally thanked, or having somebody knowingly indebted to them. But God isn't an anonymous giver. God wants us to know what God has done. And that God is behind it. Our knowledge of that then strenghtens our relationship to God. I also appreciated Carla's background about the Greek play! Paul's listeners listen in and nod their heads approvingly, until he crosses a certain line. What is the line we cross that, before that we have peoples' approval, and then we make them mad, or nervous, or angry? Jane
Date: 02 May 2002
Time: 16:41:00
I am in Hawaii where the missionaries came to do good, and did very well, indeed.
This scripture hits home as we begin work to plant a church in a community of 43,000 households and where sports and everything else is scheduled Sunday morning. I checked some statistics, and 35.3% are Christian here, compared with 71% in Alabama. Which means, of course, we have a great opportunity. But I find myself wondering whether it is an unknown God for many, or an un-sought God. Probably unsought after.
I won't use this in my sermon, but I contrast seeking God, who inevitably shows up, with waiting for Godot (who never made it). I'll take God, any time.
Aloha,
HW in HI
Date: 02 May 2002
Time: 20:55:30
Hi. I'm back with Kosuke Koyama, Japanese missionary in Thailand. His preface in "Water Buffaloe Theology" gives a good summary of his main points: He quotes I Cor 9:22 ("I become all things to all people...") and then writes: "On my way to the country church, I never fail to see a herd of water buffaloes grazing in the muddy paddy field. This sight is an inpsiring moment for me. why? Because it reminds me that the people to whom I am to bring the gospel of Christ spend most of their time with these water buffaloes in the rice field. The animals tell me that I must preach to these farmers in simple sentence structure and thought development. They remind me to discard abstract ideas, and to use objects that are immediately tangible. "Sticky rice," "banana," "Pepper," "dog," "rainy season," "leaking house," "fishing," "cock-fighting," "lottery," "stomachache" - these are meaningful words for them. 'This morning,' I say to myself, 'I will try to bring the gospel of Christ throught the medium of cock-fighting!'... I ask myself, 'Is this introduction understandable and realistic in terms of their daily experiences? Is this message digestible and nutritious to their ethical and theological needs?" ... I count how many older people there are. How many younger? Are there new faces, sick persons, pregnant women, physically challenged?... It is not I, but my audience, who determines this approach of 'theology from below.' The truth of 'self-emptying' (Phil. 2:5-7) in the God Incarnate means, to me, beginning my sermone with 'sticky-rice' and 'cock-fighting' when preaching to my people, farmers of northern Thailand.
He also talks about the true missionary as having a "crucified mind" rather than a "crusading mind".
Anyway, hope this is helpful. You have all been helpful to me, getting me excited about this text instead of John.
DGinNYC
Date: 03 May 2002
Time: 08:12:40
Re: meeting people where they are, I've found that doing that in "constant" settings is most successful, so to speak, and, too, counting it success not just because someone comes to our worship services or other activities. For example, I lead two Bible studies at a local adult day care center for people with early dementia and Alzheimer's. The director of the center has since joined our congregation, granted, but there are countless points of contact and ministry that aren't either counter or seen. Said one lady: "Do you accept atheists?" "I love atheists!" I said, and we've been in dialog ever since, including just yesterday at her father's death. I could go on and on and on. God is definitely blessing, especially considering the fact that I'm not even beginning to see it all. Soli Deo gloria! LCMSer in OR
Date: 03 May 2002
Time: 10:57:45
Hi everyone. I have really enjoyed the posts. Good stuff.
Sally in GA: I don't know if you'll see this post so late in the week, but here goes anyway. You described the spiritual seekers in Atlanta's Little Five Points. I can appreciate your concern that they may be ooking for all the right things in all the wrong places, and your sense of the irony in some of those pursuits. However, I encourage you to return there and take a another look. I detected a slight note of condescension (unusual for you)in your comments about those who inhabit the place. I was especially struck by your comment about those "content to sit in on a bongo-playing circle." Drum circles often achieve what we in the church would like to (but seldom do)in worship. I have heard a seminary professor state that through the ages and across cultures drumming has always been a part of worship rituals and that Western Christianity is the only group that has not (until recently) used drums in worship. Drums and strong rythms get us in touch with our bodies, and the heartbeat of all humanity and the earth, thus putting us directly in touch with the Creator of all this goodness. Contemporary drum circles are usually open to anyone who wants to join in. In the process of drumming, a deep non-verbal communion occurs among the participants (drummers, dancers and listeners) and it is not uncommon for many to experience if not a mystical union with God, at least a mystical communion with each other. I'd love to be a part of a Christian worship service that acheived all that. Instead, many of us in the church sit rigidly in chairs, saying the right words, thinking the right thoughts, frightened of our bodies and disappointed that we do not meet God. Drumming is a wonderful way of getting in touch with God. I suspect some of the other items and activities you mentioned may hold some holy power as well.
JGBinID
Date: 03 May 2002
Time: 11:10:07
JGB ... about Drumming: Tuesday evening the percussion ensemble of my daughter's symphonic band performed a really wonderful piece entitled "Stained Glass." I told her after the concert that, if I ever have opportunity to do so, I would like to use the piece as an introit or processional (it wouldn't work in our little church -- by the time you set up the percussion ensemble's equipment, you wouldn't have room for the congregation!)
Blessings, Eric in KS
Date: 03 May 2002
Time: 13:35:13
JGB in ID - I sincerely regret that my attitude came across as condescending. My original call was "to bless." I aim to live up to that. I have witnessed this and felt the power of the Holy Spirit through drumming in the context of Christian worship, and, as a musician and listener, have felt a more generalized spiritual link through many genres of music. This is "spiritual mother's milk," with Christ. I stand by what I said. BTW: you're in Idaho? Did you ever know Laron Hall? I've got copies of many of his sermons - and what a gift he had!
For anyone pursuing this angle, this might be an illustration - some of the most profoundly spiritual pieces to me as a performer have been those that have been written by atheists. One of my favorite pieces ever is Raef Vaughn Williams' "Hodie." While not exactly biblically accurate (he's got the wise guys going to the stable), to write such a moving piece with the idea that "if this were true, this is what it would be ..." sends further chills. Also, when we did a tribute to Robert Shaw (Atlanta, you know), our conductor told us that the ending (is it "in paradis-um" or "in paradis-io?"), where the angels make a final ascent to heaven, of Durufle's "Requiem" elicited this comment from Shaw: "Damn! Almost makes you believe it!" Shaw, as a trivia bit, started out studying to be a priest and for reasons I don't know if anyone is clear on, came to have doubts. The ASO (Atlanta Symphony Orchestra) chorus (directed by Shaw) has a *wonderful* recording of the Durufle and the Faure Requiems on (i think) ACS Digital or Telarc. The Durufle, I think, is one of the most beautiful things ever written. For you classical music buffs.
But I've gone on... Peace and grace to you brothers and sisters.
Sally in GA
Date: 03 May 2002
Time: 18:59:29
This may be getting off topic, but does anyone have any recommendations for reading material about when we are to become like the culture in order to reach people, and when we are to say "No, we are not the culture, we are different. This is worship, not entertainment." I think it's a deeper issue than tempo of music or adherance to the familiar. Any ideas?
kbc in sc
Date: 04 May 2002
Time: 04:21:52
This passage makes me think of Jesus and his disciples at Cesarea Philiipi. It's a gentile worship area...lots of niches with folks all worshipping their god of choice. Jesus asks his guys: "and who do you say that I am?" Also in some deep recesses of my mind, do I remember that Paul was unsuccessful here? Sally... how do you know Laron? Are you from Or-Id? Pamela in Eugene
Date: 04 May 2002
Time: 07:48:23
In a way, Jesus had it easier than Paul. Jesus was talking to his own people, Jews who shared the same assumptions about God and the nature of human beings and the purpose of life. Jesus did challenge them, but they were starting on the same page. Once we cross cultures or even generations it gets more complicated.
Good question kbc - we can't just "baptize" everything from a culture. On the other hand, think about things we have Christianized: the Christmas tree was originally a pagan custom. Paul used terms and concepts from the Greeks like "logos" and "metamorphosis". I don't think there's any formula to follow. It's just whatever works to serve Christ.
DGinNYC
Date: 04 May 2002
Time: 08:51:12
Late post--I've just returned from NYC and last Sunday instead of church at Riverside Presbyterian, I decided on that rainy day to visit "ground zero." I did not get a ticket to the viewing platform but trusted that the Spirit of the instinctual would go before me. As I appoached, the smell of electrical and metallic was heavy in the air. The hole where once stood many buildings including the twin towers seemed surrealistic. No cabs, no bustling shops, no loud noises. So I began walking the perimeter...so many memorials...so many faces on the fences...altars and shrines to who? I continued trying not to look too closely at the faces. But a little teddy bear holding a red sign that said "For Daddy" caught my eye and the tears came and I stopped pretending to look and read more.
It maybe a stretch. But I imagined Paul standing there and saying "I see what religious people you are and I noticed the altar with the inscription "To an unknown god." Where was our God on 9/11? Where is God for the people who mourn in NYC? God is there in the faces on the fences, in the red letters in the lap of the teddy bear, in the laminated letters and notes left around the perimeter of Ground Zero. It is obvious that those who mourn in NYC are deeply religious people and God may be unseen there but it appears that God is not unknown. BB in IL
Date: 04 May 2002
Time: 11:35:53
Pamela -
I never met him, but he was my husband's pastor back in Idaho Falls. He had such a gift for hitting on those universal human idiosyncracies and sins. I'm not from Ore-Ida; I just know of a few folks b/c my husband was from there. My in-laws have been members at Trinity (?) in Boise (the one NOT called St. Herbert's ---) for over 50 years and Laron was pastor there, too. How did you know him?
Sally
Date: 04 May 2002
Time: 17:07:55
I plan to take the tact that Paul was unsuccessful in Athens becausein trying to relate to the Athenians in such a nebulous way, he failed to preach about the Lord Jesus and so only had a few followers. I want to follow that with the text in 1 Cor. 2:1-5 where Paul says that he did not come with lofty or eloquent speech but determined to know among the Corinthians only Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Not by plausible speech but by the Spirit and the power of God. JC in PA
Date: 04 May 2002
Time: 19:09:30
Eric, Sally and others, thanks for the insights once again... just got back from a retreat... we planned for $100 and only 12 showed up. I told them, "If Christ can change the world with 12"... I guess we can see what we can do here in this corner of ND. ;?)
Just now getting it together... I titled my sermon... "To an Unknown God"...
This is late... but a friend of mine had seen a quote about how the John passage... "No one comes to the "Father" but by me." That part of that exclusive club has always bothered me... it's sort of like fingernails on a chaulkboard to me... :?) Then, my good friend Kip said, he found someone refer to that passage as... "It's kind of like you're favorite meal... sure, others could prepare it, using the same ingredients... it might even taste the same... but there is that added element of "love and care" that in the words of a VISA commercial makes that meal... PRICELESS... kind of fitting for communion Sunday I think... no one makes it like THIS.... not that that's the ONLY way... it is A way... to our UNKNOWN God...
Thanks again for all the imput,
pulpitt in ND http://faithumcfargo.com
Date: 04 May 2002
Time: 19:13:08
Whoops...
make that INput...
;?) Is my face red?
pulpitt in ND
Date: 04 May 2002
Time: 19:19:14
OK...
I'm already challenged and I only read Sally and Jeff's additions at the beginning...
This week, I did it... I kicked out the skateboarders... in our parking lot... NICE GUY!!! GUILTY!!! Well, they were throwing a pop bottle around... threw it high in the sky and well... they broke it... sticky pop on the driveway... I should have grabbed my "board" and skates and headed out there... instead, I yelled from an open office window... "HEY, you guys... knock it off and pick up that bottle, will ya?" Yep, another nice preacher shutting the door to the new generation of non-churched kids.
Confessing... I blew it...
pulpitt (OK Rick) in ND
Date: 04 May 2002
Time: 19:25:13
Instead of coming here first...I was working on my bulletin... wrote a prayer that is probably my THESIS...
Here it is, for you late comers...
PRAYER OF INVOCATION (Unison) (I even actually wrote this one! ;?) ) We've come here to find you, O God. We've traveled through yet another week, the temperatures fooled us into believing that spring would never come. We yearn for the warmer days that springtime is supposed to bring. Still, the days confuse us. In fact, this world confuses us. We wonder where you are in the midst of the world?s pain. Like the people of ancient Athens, we would like to cover the unknown with the right words and the ?right? God. We search for truth, your truth in our lives. We will gather again at your table hoping to experience a taste of your love. Be with us as we seek you from our waking moments to the last thoughts of the day. Surround us with the knowledge that you must be bigger than our minds can grasp or you wouldn't be EVERYone?s God. Bless us as we worship you in Christ?s name. --Amen--
pulpitt in ND
Date: 04 May 2002
Time: 19:37:22
Eric in KS...
Thanks for the "tip" on reading "the REST OF THE STORY" verses 16-21... wonderful addition indeed... I too, will read this!
Thanks man, late for even me,
Rick
pulpitt in ND
Date: 04 May 2002
Time: 19:43:18
OK... I'm trying to make up for being gone a few months... or weeks anyway...
In seminary, we had a professor that said we should give "LIVER" sandwiches... in other words... everyone likes bread... "Athenians, I can see that you are a very religious people, for I have seen your statues and have admired them with you..." then the liver... not many particularly care for "liver"... "I came upon an altar with this inscription... "to an unknown god".... then "as you search, even grope for God... know this, it is in God that we live and move and have meaning to our existance"... the bread of life is added at the end... Paul originated the "liver sandwhich"
blessings to the late comers, for they shall inherit the earth... ;?)
pulpitt in ND
Rick
pulpitt in ND
Date: 04 May 2002
Time: 20:06:45
Thanks DG in NYC...
I like the Water buffalo quotes...
Paul's listeners listen in and nod their heads approvingly, until he crosses a certain line. What is the line we cross that, before that we have peoples' approval, and then we make them mad, or nervous, or angry? Jane
Jane I liked your stuff too...
and Kate in SoCal for the Helen Keller quote...
and Tom
and Pastor Andy...
OK, ALL OF YOU... THANKS A MILLION... ;?)
and Doug in DC
pulpitt in ND
Date: 04 May 2002
Time: 20:15:25
BB in IL,
I hope and pray others see your experience at "ground zero" what a wonderful image... wonderful TRAGIC image and beautiful image and witness to what many in the pew must go through each day following a loved ones death.
an unknown God is revealed in you as you share tomorrow,
pulpitt in ND
Date: 04 May 2002
Time: 20:20:51
BB in IL,
I hope and pray others see your experience at "ground zero" what a wonderful image... wonderful TRAGIC image and beautiful image and witness to what many in the pew must go through each day following a loved ones death.
an unknown God is revealed in you as you share tomorrow,
pulpitt in ND
Date: 04 May 2002
Time: 22:44:00
Sally: Great comments... thanks for your insight. Who is your husband? I chaired the Or-Id Board of Ordained Ministry. <revpam@yahoo.com>